Is SIT a Myth?

Saturated Fats

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This was shown to me by a top instructor. I'd rather not identify him in case I misunderstood or get any of the details wrong.

The instructor tells me that one cannot spin a ball into a hole. I said "Huh?". How can that be? I do it all the time. He shows me by way of an experiment. Here's the setup.

Place the cue ball (CB) somewhere near the middle of the table. Take the one ball (1B) and freeze it to the CB so that the line of centers points to about an inch left of a side pocket. Now take the two ball (2B) and freeze it to the left sides of both the CB and the 1B. The three balls form a perfect triangle and the line of centers for the CB and the 1B is still pointing just left of the pocket.

Now remove the CB and shoot trying to spin the 1B into the side pocket. The 2B makes it impossible to hit the 1B left of center, so if the 1B is to be pocketed, it has to be thrown to the right with spin.

Can you pocket the 1B? I can't.
 
I think the experiment shows that you can't always throw a ball with spin but it doesn't disprove SIT in general.

Here's a video by Dr. Dave about cut-induced throw and spin-induced throw. I don't have time to watch it right now so I don't know what he says in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jUL_8aZ2LU
 
Saturated Fats said:
This was shown to me by a top instructor. I'd rather not identify him in case I misunderstood or get any of the details wrong.

The instructor tells me that one cannot spin a ball into a hole. I said "Huh?". How can that be? I do it all the time. He shows me by way of an experiment. Here's the setup.

Place the cue ball (CB) somewhere near the middle of the table. Take the one ball (1B) and freeze it to the CB so that the line of centers points to about an inch left of a side pocket. Now take the two ball (2B) and freeze it to the left sides of both the CB and the 1B. The three balls form a perfect triangle and the line of centers for the CB and the 1B is still pointing just left of the pocket.

Now remove the CB and shoot trying to spin the 1B into the side pocket. The 2B makes it impossible to hit the 1B left of center, so if the 1B is to be pocketed, it has to be thrown to the right with spin.

Can you pocket the 1B? I can't.
Click to expand...

I doubt you can throw a ball an inch that way at short distances, but you can do it, there just has to be a bit of friction between the balls. Probably with very clean balls and cloth it's also hard to do. I do it with follow/draw all the time. I remember a shot not long ago that was almost the same, there was a carom off a ball but it was going just a bit short of the pocket. I hit the ball with draw to get some follow on the ball and it curved a tiny bit into the side.
 
If I understand the OP's experiment, his cue tip is directly hitting the 1B with right English. But that's not the same as a CB (with left English) hitting the 1B.
 
jeffj2h said:
If I understand the OP's experiment, his cue tip is directly hitting the 1B with right English. But that's not the same as a CB (with left English) hitting the 1B.
Click to expand...

No, he's hitting the cue ball with left. He used it to help set up the position of the 1b and the 2b. He just moved it from it's original set-up position to ensure that he can hit the 1b dead on, but that he cannot hit it left of center, because the two ball is in the way.

The funny thing is, when I first started playing pool, a friend showed me this shot to teach me about SIT. It went right in, and I immediately began using English to pocket balls in similar circumstances. The key for me in making the 1b in this set up is slow speed, high spin. At high speeds, the force of the contact overwhelms the force of the spin, and nothing really happens. Also, there isn't a ton of throw, so you need to make sure that you would just barely miss if you hit it without English.
 
jeffj2h said:
If I understand the OP's experiment, his cue tip is directly hitting the 1B with right English. But that's not the same as a CB (with left English) hitting the 1B.
Click to expand...

Sorry if it isn't clear, but it's the CB rather than the the cue tip.
 
Saturated Fats said:
This was shown to me by a top instructor. I'd rather not identify him in case I misunderstood or get any of the details wrong.

The instructor tells me that one cannot spin a ball into a hole. I said "Huh?". How can that be? I do it all the time. He shows me by way of an experiment. Here's the setup.

Place the cue ball (CB) somewhere near the middle of the table. Take the one ball (1B) and freeze it to the CB so that the line of centers points to about an inch left of a side pocket. Now take the two ball (2B) and freeze it to the left sides of both the CB and the 1B. The three balls form a perfect triangle and the line of centers for the CB and the 1B is still pointing just left of the pocket.

Now remove the CB and shoot trying to spin the 1B into the side pocket. The 2B makes it impossible to hit the 1B left of center, so if the 1B is to be pocketed, it has to be thrown to the right with spin.

Can you pocket the 1B? I can't.
Click to expand...

That experiment doesn't really prove that the ball can't be thrown into the pocket by spin. The only think it does is make sure the contact point between the cue ball and the object ball cannot be changed.

Now, make the same setup, with all three balls. Then remove the 2 ball, not the cue ball. All that is left is the cue ball and the 1 ball, frozen and aimed about an inch left of the side pocket. Shooting straight through both balls with left hand spin, the 1 ball can be thrown to the right and possible into the side pocket. The contact point did not change because the balls were frozen. So, the only way for the 1 ball to deviate from the line of contact is through friction from the cue ball.

You can use left hand spin like I mentioned, which creates "throw" created by spin. Or, you can simply aim the the cue ball far to the right, say at the corner pocket to the right, and get a similar effect. This is "throw" caused by direction.

In both cases, the part of the cueball that is in contact with the 1 ball is moving to the right. Friction between the balls will cause the 1 ball to be carried to the right also.

By the way, I can make your 1 ball even with the 2 ball in place and just using the cue and no cue ball!

Royce
 
Last edited:
Saturated Fats said:
This was shown to me by a top instructor. I'd rather not identify him in case I misunderstood or get any of the details wrong.

The instructor tells me that one cannot spin a ball into a hole. I said "Huh?". How can that be? I do it all the time. He shows me by way of an experiment. Here's the setup.

Place the cue ball (CB) somewhere near the middle of the table. Take the one ball (1B) and freeze it to the CB so that the line of centers points to about an inch left of a side pocket. Now take the two ball (2B) and freeze it to the left sides of both the CB and the 1B. The three balls form a perfect triangle and the line of centers for the CB and the 1B is still pointing just left of the pocket.

Now remove the CB and shoot trying to spin the 1B into the side pocket. The 2B makes it impossible to hit the 1B left of center, so if the 1B is to be pocketed, it has to be thrown to the right with spin.

Can you pocket the 1B? I can't.
Click to expand...

If CB & OB are shinny clean and new you can say SIT is almost zero,

With scratched OB & CB, friction becomes a factor, and will generate SIT

Only at the two conditions below:

1- Stun with english
2- Very slow speed with english.
 
RBC said:
That experiment doesn't really prove that the ball can't be thrown into the pocket by spin. The only think it does is make sure the contact point between the cue ball and the object ball cannot be changed.
Click to expand...
The fact that that shot is not difficult to make proves that throw does change the direction of the object ball.
 
Saturated Fats said:
You're absolutely right. He demonstrates the exact shot. I guess the throw is just less than I expected.
Click to expand...

That's the message. Most people after learning about spin-induced throw believe it's more than it is.

Freddie <~~~ the drum, the drum
 
Very clean new balls will throw much less than old dirty balls die to lack of or less friction. Also reduced with greater speed. Isn't this pretty common knowledge?
 
There might be situations in which SIT does not work as expected. But it's a big reach to therefore conclude that SIT is a myth. I use it at least once in about 10 racks (excluding the use of simple "gearing" english). The most common, for me, is the "almost straight in shot" where another ball blocks my path to the OB contact point.
 
Saturated Fats said:
This was shown to me by a top instructor. I'd rather not identify him in case I misunderstood or get any of the details wrong.

The instructor tells me that one cannot spin a ball into a hole. I said "Huh?". How can that be? I do it all the time. He shows me by way of an experiment. Here's the setup.

Place the cue ball (CB) somewhere near the middle of the table. Take the one ball (1B) and freeze it to the CB so that the line of centers points to about an inch left of a side pocket. Now take the two ball (2B) and freeze it to the left sides of both the CB and the 1B. The three balls form a perfect triangle and the line of centers for the CB and the 1B is still pointing just left of the pocket.

Now remove the CB and shoot trying to spin the 1B into the side pocket. The 2B makes it impossible to hit the 1B left of center, so if the 1B is to be pocketed, it has to be thrown to the right with spin.

Can you pocket the 1B? I can't.
Click to expand...

I can spin a ball into a pocket. I doubt I am the only person in the world who can do it.

Just because a person is charging a lot of cash to give advice doesn't make them a top instructor.
 
bdorman said:
There might be situations in which SIT does not work as expected. But it's a big reach to therefore conclude that SIT is a myth. I use it at least once in about 10 racks (excluding the use of simple "gearing" english). The most common, for me, is the "almost straight in shot" where another ball blocks my path to the OB contact point.
Click to expand...
Even if another ball does not block the contact point, if the cue ball is close to the object ball and you have a good feel for SIT, it is often more reliable to shoot straight at the object ball and throw it in than to figure out the cut angle.

Here is a test for SIT. You can make both cue ball and object ball move to the same side of the shot.
throwtest.gif
The goal is to make the OB hit the GB (gauge ball) and also get the cue ball to move to the left using right side spin. In fact if the CB is within a ball of the OB, you can make the OB in the far pocket (if you have removed the GB, obviously) and still get the CB to move to the left.

The OP may want to talk to the instructor he mentioned to clarify the point in light of this shot.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top