is the break the most difficult shot in pool?

[Straightpool_99]

Unlike tennis, you don’t have to be a brilliant breaker...just an efficient one.
....you don’t have to make a lot of balls, just one.

When Buddy Hall, in his prime, was giving champions the 8, I doubt it he was in the top
hundred breakers, but he broke good enough to stay at the table.

I disagree. There is an advantage to being a GREAT braker. This applies especially to 8 ball, but other games as well. Bustamante won many a match from his great break. He basically had to run fewer balls and had more open layouts. He was a real terror when he lived in Germany. I believe I read somwhere that he averaged 2-3 (edit I think it was 3) balls on his break. That's a huge advantage. The opponent is practically spotting him 1-2 balls....Would you rather have the 7 or 8 or not have any spot at all?

You don't HAVE to be a great breaker, but it sure helps.

 

[Derek7646]

All of you guys saying the break isn't that important and the win percentage is even for most players that break is around 50% aren't taking into account the fact that not everyone in maximizing their chances with their breaks. My ability to run out from a break and Shane Van Boening's ability to run out from a break are two wildly different numbers. To say there is no advantage to breaking when Shane CLEARLY has an advantage from breaking, is wildly inaccurate. Just because it might not help the average player/someone who doesn't break well or practice breaking well, does not mean that breaking is not an advantage. Breaking is clearly an advantage, its just whether or not YOU have the capability to utilize it to its fullest potential.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

All of you guys saying the break isn't that important and the win percentage is even for most players that break is around 50% aren't taking into account the fact that not everyone in maximizing their chances with their breaks. My ability to run out from a break and Shane Van Boening's ability to run out from a break are two wildly different numbers. To say there is no advantage to breaking when Shane CLEARLY has an advantage from breaking, is wildly inaccurate. Just because it might not help the average player/someone who doesn't break well or practice breaking well, does not mean that breaking is not an advantage. Breaking is clearly an advantage, its just whether or not YOU have the capability to utilize it to its fullest potential.

The question is whether it’s “the most difficult” or “the most important” shot. There’s “an advantage” to being good at any shot - does that mean every shot is the most difficult and important?

pj
chgo

 

[Derek7646]

I'd say its the most difficult and most important. With the statistics of the supposed average professionals win % from the break, it looks like its not that easy to achieve a great break. However, those who have achieved a great break, receive astounding benefits from it, ie: Shane stringing together 10 packs. I'm sure you'll find a way to play devils advocate to that as well, but that is really case closed, in my opinion. Its objectively an advantage if you are good enough to capitalize on it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'd say its the most difficult and most important.

Yes, there's plenty of evidence you'd say that. What's missing is evidence that it's true (anecdotal stuff like "Shane ran a 10-pack" doesn't get it).

pj <- all about the evidence
chgo

 

[Luxury]

I guess when arguing whether it’s the most difficult, we first have to decide what criteria is met before we can see you actually “made the shot.”

Some might say making a ball and not scratching, some might say making a ball and getting shape on the one or the next lowest ball that is still on the table or some might say making a ball on the break and having shape on the one, two AND three ball the way Donny Mills did almost every break in the race to 100 against SVB. SVB Had about 75 tries to mimic it and finally “gave up.”


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[Derek7646]

Pure and simple, you can't break and run racks if you don't break - that's evidence that its a benefit to break. I think you just like arguing moot points with no evidence that breaking isn't a benefit

That sounds like an impressive break. Did this fella beat SVB in the race to 100?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I guess when arguing whether it’s the most difficult, we first have to decide what criteria is met before we can see you actually “made the shot.”

Some might say making a ball and scratching some might say making a ball and getting shape on the one or the next lowest ball that still on the table or some might say making a ball on the break and having shape on the one, two AND three ball The way Donny Mills did almost every brake in the race to 100 against SVB. SVB Had about 75 tries to mimic it and finally “gave up.”


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What was the final score of that match?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pure and simple, you can't break and run racks if you don't break - that's evidence that its a benefit to break,

Actually, it's not (much less evidence it's the "most important" or "most difficult" shot). Evidence would be stats that show the breaker winning a substantial majority of the time. Stats don't show that.

Sure, the break is important and difficult to master. So are most shots.

pj
chgo

 

[Luxury]

Is a full table Masse The most difficult shot in pool? Definitely a contender but the fact that it comes up once a decade at best eliminates it from being important. Is the stop shot the most important shot in pool? Yes, according to lots of books I’ve read but definitely not the most difficult.

The break shot Is by far the most important/difficult shot in pool. The OP had a very simple headline to the thread what is the most difficult shot in pool? But then he talked about tennis and said the most difficult/important shot was the serve.

The question is whether the debate is what is the most difficult shot in pool or whether it is what is the most difficult/important shot in pool


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[flyrv9]

Seems to me that if you want to transfer the most energy from the cue ball to the rack, than breaking head on is the way to do it. If you just want to break hard enough to drive the required (usually 3) number of balls to a rail (8 or 9 ball) then breaking from anywhere will accomplish it easily. However, if you break hard and spread the rack and don't make a ball, then you're helping set up your opponent for a runout.

I practiced (8 ball breaks) at home breaking from the left, center and right; recording the results. When I got to 50 each, totals were pretty close. I need to repeat my test and record where the balls went and not just the number. This is all on a 7' table.

 

[evergruven]

Is a full table Masse The most difficult shot in pool? Definitely a contender but the fact that it comes up once a decade at best eliminates it from being important. Is the stop shot the most important shot in pool? Yes, according to lots of books I’ve read but definitely not the most difficult.

The break shot Is by far the most important/difficult shot in pool. The OP had a very simple headline to the thread what is the most difficult shot in pool? But then he talked about tennis and said the most difficult/important shot was the serve.

The question is whether the debate is what is the most difficult shot in pool or whether it is what is the most difficult/important shot in pool


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hi lux, I ended my initial post with this question, referring of course to the break:

"there are plenty of fancy shots out there that require fancy thinking and stroke, but is there a shot in pool more regularly attempted, more important to the outcome of the game that is more difficult to hit well?"

I actually wanted to edit the thread title to add the word "important" as a qualifier, but couldn't figure out how. I'm not sure if the replies to this thread would have changed much, but I'll say it has been interesting getting so much input on the subject, anyway.

thanks for yours!

 

[pt109]

Pure and simple, you can't break and run racks if you don't break - that's evidence that its a benefit to break. I think you just like arguing moot points with no evidence that breaking isn't a benefit

That sounds like an impressive break. Did this fella beat SVB in the race to 100?

Shane won the match....his gorilla break caught him up and he went ahead finally.

 

[Derek7646]

Shane won the match....his gorilla break caught him up and he went ahead finally.

No way! Its not statistically proven that the break isn't an advantage so Shane's break couldn't have helped him in winning a match!

 

[KRJ]

I think the title is a bit off. It's not the most "difficult" shot. You have to realize many folks don't practice the break shot. So, in terms of difficulty, I'd say I can teach someone to break pretty good in an hour. To draw a cue ball 5 or more diamonds might take a lot longer

When I get to league, I warm up first and then break at least 6 racks just to get a feel for my break, see how the table is breaking, three breaks from my normal break position and 3 from my "back up" location.

Thus, maybe the title should be more of "Is the break shot the most important shot of the game" ? Or something similar. Of course, if you break well but draw like crap, not going to make difference during the match.

All things being equal, the break is "important", especially in 8-ball. Not the most important, but very important none the less.

I want the ability to chose solids or stripes. Give's me a chance to take a huge head start on my opponent if stripes are sitting "funny" or some are tied up and I take solids.

It's like a game of poker. Right after the flop (break) if I make a ball, i'm now sitting at 65/35 (or whatever, I don't know the exact odds), and those odds change just like every new card off the deck (balls being moved or made)

Of course, if I break dry, the tables just turned on me slightly, and my opponent is slightly ahead, or way ahead based on how my OB's are left when he's done shooting.

 

[bioactive]

Pros are playing people who range from the 600s to around 800 Fargorate. if you take an average of all players you will get something near 50-50 plus or minus. But if you were to regress break win rate against Fargorate I bet you will find a positive correlation. Break is not a substantial factor for most amateurs, and may not be a substantial factor for lower level pros, but I bet if you look you will find it is a major factor for those with a 760 plus Fargorate = top 100 in the world.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I see that my rules have been mentioned in this thread.

What skills do we want to emphasize and encourage with the break rules? I removed the destructive aspects and time consuming incentives. The results have made the break more skillful and the short games better in many ways. I did it 10 years ago. I will not go back.

Matches move faster. Players get along.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

No way! Its not statistically proven that the break isn't an advantage so Shane's break couldn't have helped him in winning a match!

I see you're still struggling to understand statistics vs. anecdotes. Here's some help: Wikipedia: anecdotal evidence

pj <- don't take my word for it
chgo

 

[sjm]

I see that my rules have been mentioned in this thread.

What skills do we want to emphasize and encourage with the break rules? I removed the destructive aspects and time consuming incentives. The results have made the break more skillful and the short games better in many ways. I did it 10 years ago. I will not go back.

Matches move faster. Players get along.

Hope you're not endorsing "rack your own" here. I thing that "racking skill" and "breaking skill" are two different things, and I think that racking skill has far more to do with the game than I'd prefer and has, consequently, reduced the need for breaking skill in some cases.

 

[pt109]

Hope you're not endorsing "rack your own" here. I thing that "racking skill" and "breaking skill" are two different things, and I think that racking skill has far more to do with the game than I'd prefer and has, consequently, reduced the need for breaking skill in some cases.

Paul Schofield calls his method “no conflict”...
...the breaker shoots after his own break whether he makes a ball or not.
...eliminates any racking arguments.

I’m not a fan of this, I consider pool to be a war game, like chess....
...you fight your opponent, within the rules, of course.

This no conflict tames the game down, IMO, making it more like a practise drill....
...playing the ghost.

Me?....I like to three-foul a guy once in a while...:angry: