Is the National Billiards League legit, or a scam?

jimmyg

Mook! What's a Mook?
Silver Member
I believe I read he has an attorney.

I suggested earlier to simply state only first place gets paid unless the venue has some other way to add money and to please contact the site you'll be playing for more info as often these sites can pay up to 8 places.

No confusion this way
Hard to believe that a qualified attorney drafted or approved the current wording, it appears to misrepresent the actual terms of the payout and I can understand some believing that it is intentionally deceptive. A second or third year law student would be able to draft a more accurate, truthful, and legal explanation including disclaimer.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hard to believe that a qualified attorney drafted or approved the current wording, it appears to misrepresent the actual terms of the payout and I can understand some believing that it is intentionally deceptive. A second or third year law student would be able to draft a more accurate, truthful, and legal explanation including disclaimer.
Post # 52 he mentions his NBL attorney
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ed, I am disappointed in how you have advertised this endeavor.

It is total bullshit.

What pool needs, after all the scams dating back to Trudeau and further back, is total transparency. Not some weasel-worded advertisement that requires a tortured explanation after-the-fact which attempts to disguise the true nature of what players put in and can expect out. I know how to read promotional text and yours is totally misleading -- there's just no way around that.

In my heart, I believe you are a good guy and don't know what drove you to try and run this scam -- and I do not use that word lightly -- but this whole thing, IMO, is a sham that should and will die a quick death. Projects like this are not what pool needs.

Lou Figueroa
Sometimes it's worth cutting through all the BS and just stating the truth. This is what you did here. Well said.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
and for any pool tournament bigger than a local one where a significant amount of money is being held for more than short term,,,

it is essential that all the payout money be put in an escrow account that requires multiple signatures to remove.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have to go to bed and will get back to this tomorrow but I will say right now that this has really gotten out of hand. I had doubts and questions about this way back when it was introduced but didn't then nor would I now ever use the words scam, shady or total bullshit to describe what has happened. Ed is trying to do something good here. Mistakes have been made and adjustments may need to be made but I think we'd all be better off trying to help instead of doing everything possible to tear it down.

Imagine a lottery scratch ticket that said "8 1 Million $ prizes available" but at the end there was only one and if you wanted to collect the other 7 prizes you had to buy another secondary ticket to try to win at the same chances as the first ticket you bought in order to fund the other prizes. I am guessing not a lot of citizens would let the government off the hook for that one.

The events are a good idea, the hiding of the payouts during the qualifier is not.
 

Patrick53212

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, you know you have to let the dead money think they have a chance at winning something back or they won't donate...I mean play.
 

Patrick53212

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe someone should start a GoFundMe page for the events...a guy just can't make a living at pool like the good ole days. Dangit.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
and for any pool tournament bigger than a local one where a significant amount of money is being held for more than short term,,,

it is essential that all the payout money be put in an escrow account that requires multiple signatures to remove.
especially when there will be continuing performance for a year long period, if I understand the proposal correctly.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My problem is "what is an amateur"?

The skill limit is on the site. I have to say it is right for pro vs amateurs, but well out of the range of anyone under 600 Fargo (A-) to be able to advance. It seems like an APA season for high level players compressed into a qualifier where those 64 players from 64 qualifiers get a trip to Nationals to play the Pros that paid $1,000 for their spot. Of course ignoring that "top 8 win cash that day".

I like the mixing of things up here to benefit both the top non pro level players and maybe a few A players, and the pro players that have this other event to go to.

Catch is, will there be enough interest to run 64 qualifiers over two months with a few dozen players in each one to get the prize fund to advance to this every two months?

STAGE 1 QUALIFIER FORMAT

Amateurs Only (BCA ranked 201 or higher/719 Fargo and below) *these are subject to change in the future

"Pretty much in a nutshell, 32 players (open speed and under- no pros) enter a stage 1 qualifying event for $150.00. The top 8 win cash that day and the 1st place winner also gets the big prize package: the $1000 entry into the main event, paid flight, paid hotel, 2021 tour card to bypass qualifiers for events 2, 3 & 4, and 2 official NBL competition jerseys personalized with their last name, the qualifying state and venue on back. "
 
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JMiller1975

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The skill limit is on the site. I have to say it is right for pro vs amateurs, but well out of the range of anyone under 600 Fargo (A-) to be able to advance. It seems like an APA season for high level players compressed into a qualifier where those 64 players from 64 qualifiers get a trip to Nationals to play the Pros that paid $1,000 for their spot. Of course ignoring that "top 8 win cash that day".

I like the mixing of things up here to benefit both the top non pro level players and maybe a few A players, and the pro players that have this other event to go to.

Catch is, will there be enough interest to run 64 qualifiers over two months with a few dozen players in each one to get the prize fund to advance to this every two months?

STAGE 1 QUALIFIER FORMAT

Amateurs Only (BCA ranked 201 or higher/719 Fargo and below) *these are subject to change in the future

"Pretty much in a nutshell, 32 players (open speed and under- no pros) enter a stage 1 qualifying event for $150.00. The top 8 win cash that day and the 1st place winner also gets the big prize package: the $1000 entry into the main event, paid flight, paid hotel, 2021 tour card to bypass qualifiers for events 2, 3 & 4, and 2 official NBL competition jerseys personalized with their last name, the qualifying state and venue on back. "
I liked the format idea enough that I was willing to drive to another state to play in the "qualifier" and because my Fargo is above a 600 (and I play a little above that as well) I have a good chance of winning, or at the very least, cashing in the event (if they pay out the top 8 like it says). But like you and I and many other people have stated, the problem is when you you put that "The top 8 win cash that day" it is very misleading. I can't imagine this being sustainable if they are only going to pay 1st place out of the $150 entry. I like the analogy of it being like an "APA season for high level players" as that is kind of what I thought about it.

And to all those that say this is a "qualifier" and it is "standard practice" for the industry to only pay an entry into a larger tournament, that is BS. I've played in a lot of qualifiers. Typically they pay out all the extra money that is above and beyond what is needed to pay for the entry into the larger event. I played in a US Open qualifier last year at California Billiards that my friend Jason Williams won and I cashed in. As it is, it SHOULD be more like a satellite for a poker tournament where they give away a spot for how ever many places the tournament can afford to buy. For example, If the entry fee into the qualifier is $100, and the seat into the main event is $1000, then for every 10 entries they should give away an entry into the main. If there are 38 entries then they would give away 3 seats plus have $800 left over to pay out to some of the field (of course this is all assuming you're not paying out the top 8)
 
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maha

from way back when
Silver Member
problem with that he wants to take out over half of the entry fees for whatever and he wont tell where it goes. or even prove that it will happen or what money will be returned if this falls through.
the right way to do it is to award the first place prize as a cash amount to be applied to the main event. as airfares are variable from where you are located. what if you live close by, you dont get the airfare money you won? who keeps it. what if you are from england and win does he fly you over, or now says tough luck. and next, then state what each place pays after that in the qualifier before it starts buy having a sliding scale of payouts for each amount of entries.

but that makes it transparent and may discourage players from entering after they see their returns.

this is maybe a good idea but not thought out well and hardly transparent and doomed to failure because of those two things and many others.

maybe he should look to find a good business person to handle the affairs for himself.
i wish him well if he can get it together.
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
problem with that he wants to take out over half of the entry fees for whatever and he wont tell where it goes. or even prove that it will happen or what money will be returned if this falls through.
the right way to do it is to award the first place prize as a cash amount to be applied to the main event. as airfares are variable from where you are located. what if you live close buy you dont get the airfare money you won. who keeps it. what if you are from england and win does he fly you over or now says tough luck. and then state what each place pays after that in the qualifier before it starts buy having a sliding scale of payouts for each amount of entries.

but that makes it transparent and may discourage players from entering after they see their returns.

this is maybe a good idea but not thought out well and hardly transparent and doomed to failure because of those two things and many others.

maybe he should look to find a good business person to handle the affairs for himself.
i wish him well if he can get it together.
Maybe you should go back and check out the info from the beginning because then some things would become a little clearer to you.
 

Goldy

Beating The Internet
Silver Member
This thread is exactly why pool never goes anywhere. We are programmed to create controversy over the simplest of common senses. Who is the idiot asking where the money goes? 100% of the entry fees go upstream to the main event. How dumb do you have to be not to understand that? Regardless of where the money goes, there will be people getting paid to work this Pro Tour as well. We have idiots that can't grasp that people get paid for working, and until EVERYONE here on AZ Billiards understands that people get paid for working maybe we'll have positive and accusative progression for the Sport in the United States.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
Who is the idiot asking where the money goes? 100% of the entry fees go upstream to the main event. How dumb do you have to be not to understand that?
No it doesn't. How dumb do you have to be to believe that? Just using your words

150
X 32
$4,800
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Gold Member
Silver Member
I guess you can't read. There is payment to those who work. Get it yet?
I can read just fine, apparently you don't understand what "upstream" means, you're the one who said all the money goes upstream. Money paid to a TD or room owner is not upstream.

$1,000 entry, that leaves $3,800 for t-shirts, a cheap flight and I'm sure they're not staying at the Ritz(are they)
 

Beansie

New member
This thread is exactly why pool never goes anywhere. We are programmed to create controversy over the simplest of common senses. Who is the idiot asking where the money goes? 100% of the entry fees go upstream to the main event. How dumb do you have to be not to understand that? Regardless of where the money goes, there will be people getting paid to work this Pro Tour as well. We have idiots that can't grasp that people get paid for working, and until EVERYONE here on AZ Billiards understands that people get paid for working maybe we'll have positive and accusative progression for the Sport in the United States.

Hey Goldy!

You getting paid to be so abrasive to someone questioning the NBL? If yes, maybe you should take a long walk. If no, maybe you should take a chill pill. Either way.. you may be the "idiot/dumb/can't read" (your words, not mine) if you can't do simple math or have a conversation on this forum without resorting to insulting people.

And talking about things people don't understand.. what the hell is this advertisement in your signature. It takes up more room than your post.

B.
 

billb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This thread is exactly why pool never goes anywhere. We are programmed to create controversy over the simplest of common senses. Who is the idiot asking where the money goes? 100% of the entry fees go upstream to the main event. How dumb do you have to be not to understand that? Regardless of where the money goes, there will be people getting paid to work this Pro Tour as well. We have idiots that can't grasp that people get paid for working, and until EVERYONE here on AZ Billiards understands that people get paid for working maybe we'll have positive and accusative progression for the Sport in the United States.

Ok.....lets think about this for a minute......you are free to insult the "idiots" asking a straight forward, legit question that they do not have a clear, transparent answer for, (yes, I am one of the "idiots") and we are supposed to just smile and deal with it. We only want transparency and we are "idiots" for wanting that. Personally, I have never and will not ever bash the effort of this gentleman. You can go back and read my posts. I challenge you to find ONE tiny negative thing that I said. I simply asked a question.

Your response is very clear though as to your personal position on those asking the questions AND to the fact that the website or information you have personally received and interpreted is clear and concise. I do not see it like you do. I am not clear on what happens to the money. If its as clear as what you say, then the promoter simply laying that out in black and white would end the discussion and answer my questions. AND, it would also mean I am not going to participate. That makes me feel like the promoter is afraid to be completely up front and only gives as much information as they need to.

But, because I do not see it the way you see it or interpret it as clearly as you do, I am an "idiot"? I simply didn't and do not understand the promise that the "top 8 win cash that day" and asked for clarification from A PERSON WHO SPECIFICALLY AND OPENLY WELCOMED DIALOGUE AND QUESTIONS.....the person advertising the league.

Its $150 of MY money plus whatever other expenses. He want my as well as other peoples business and said we have to "do our part" and participate. I am fine with that. I just asked for a small clarification on the payouts. And because he wants my business, I am allowed to ask that question. I promise you this.....if I had no intention of playing, I would've left it alone. I can also promise you this, I can personally fill half a qualifier in my area through nothing more than word of mouth. It only makes sense to answer questions like this from people who can help this platform manifest itself through word of mouth. I dont want a pat on the back or special treatment, I simply want a clear answer.

What created my question was what I personally perceived as a vague explanation on the website and in writing. I think that everyone here wants this to succeed. I think we are all rooting for this gentleman. I know I am. But to be insulted for asking a well thought out and legit question seems crazy.

I am many things, but an "idiot" isn't one of them. I have spent countless dollars in this industry. I have supported many, many tours, tournaments, leagues, supply companies and so on over the years. I have passion for this game and those who promote it.

So, for you to insult me comes across as immature and seems like you have another agenda of some sort. Maybe that is as simple as being a person with a negative outlook in life. I don't know because I don't know you and will reserve judgment.

I guess the whole point of my post is two fold......1) for you to see where I personally am coming from and 2) to point out that if anyone in this equation could have a negative impact on the tour, I believe its you because you could drive potential, legit players like myself to the point they throw their hands up and say heck with the whole thing over them simply wanting a point of clarification.

Now, you will say that this is whats wrong with the world and there are no participation trophies anymore and people get offended to quickly and blah blah blah.......whats funny is I agree with that stance too. I am not offended easily and I have ZERO problem telling it like it is if necessary. We as a society have become very soft and I think thats not a good thing. But I dont think asking a legit question should resort to personal insults.

What I have a problem with is being called an "idiot" by someone who isn't part of a civil discussion between adults regarding a subject that we all have a vested interest in.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well now that this thread has been bumped back up, I checked the main site, and the wording has not changed since this thread was started 28 days ago. It seems it will stay as-is, by all indications.

That said, the next round of qualifiers due to this thread and FB posts will probably have much fewer surprises.

Edit to add: now that players know their entry fee (from a prize payout standpoint) only goes to first place, and carried forward to the main event, will participation in the next round of qualifiers be affected? We will find out.
 
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