Is this a foul?
- Thread starter gordml
- Start date
couldn't tell if 2 was frozen. video wasn't clear enough. if it was then i'd say it was a foul. looks like he rail-firsted it and no rail after.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I'm not 100% sure the ball is frozen. I can't say that it isn't, but there may be a slight sliver of space. If it was frozen, yes it's a foul. But i don't see why he would shoot it like that if it was frozen. If the ball is not frozen, I declare it. To not declare the ball not frozen is asking for a misunderstanding. If there is a disagreement, now there are two points that need to be clarified, did the cue ball hit the rail after contact, and did the object ball hit the rail.
yes...
A ball on a rail, that's not called Frozen before the shot execution, is considered not frozen.
And if a ball is frozen on the rail and is called frozen, then when the other player comes to the table, after opponents turn and it's not disturbed, the opposing opponent MUST again call the ball frozen. Why? the table could of been bumped? or and it Could be off the rail, it's Never frozen till called.
Guessing he played the CB into the 8 and went wide - meaning he got the 2 on the thin side, meaning, it wasn't froze. I can't see he was trying anything else so I gotta give Yapp the benefit of the doubt.
I was unable to see from the video whether the 2 ball was 1mm off the rail or not. How do you know it was frozen?
It is absolutely standard where I play for the seated player to either call a ball frozen or ask about it. That is actually the responsibility of the seated player according to the rules.
Yapp played the shot the way he planned -- rail first to hit the 2 ball. He did not plan for the cue ball to go to a rail after the shot. He planned for the 2 ball to be driven towards the cushion. He happened to hit the 2 ball too thin so the shot didn't work. In my view he is not the kind of person to plan to shoot a foul.
OK. I agree that the ball could not have been frozen because Yapp is not a cheat.
But i still think the situation is weird.
If Yapps opponent stays in his seat he doesnt know if its frozen or not. Like I said originally players rarely check.
So if the ball is frozen Yapp could easily play the shot the way he did knowing he can never be called for cheating.
Even if it was on a stream and somebody caught it, Yapp could easily argue he didnt know it was frozen and its his responsibility to tell me.
Anyway I guess it just boils down to the honor system with players when there is no ref.
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In this case I think you want to see evil where none exists.
Which is not to say that no player would cheat there. I've seen many players like that.
The seated player is free -- and in some sense required -- to come up and look.
Watched a few seconds previous and the 2 got there from the break where it heads into position and gets double kissed along the cushion and heads away from the cushion. It then seems to fall back into the groove and comes to a stop slightly off the cushion. Can't really tell.
No foul.
There is no way that ball was frozen. Yapp would never have played that shot the way he did if it was frozen. He clearly went rail first, hitting the rail well before the ball (indicating it was not a mis-hit).
I don't think he could have gotten a safe the way the balls were laying by hitting ball first.
There is no way that ball was frozen. Yapp would never have played that shot the way he did if it was frozen. He clearly went rail first, hitting the rail well before the ball (indicating it was not a mis-hit).
I don't think he could have gotten a safe the way the balls were laying by hitting ball first.
Just echoing those starting with Island Drive stating that the ball isn't frozen until declared frozen just before each person shoots. No doubt not a rule in all play but a very common rule where I play and in the games I have played.
An argument I have seen in a bar many times and even participated in, if a single fiber is sticking out from the cushion and touching the ball that is clearly off the main covering of the cushion, is it frozen or not? My opinion was not frozen because the fiber was not supposed to be sticking out to begin with. However, if playing a real jerk or cheater I have been known to argue it either way!(grin)
Hu
An argument I have seen in a bar many times and even participated in, if a single fiber is sticking out from the cushion and touching the ball that is clearly off the main covering of the cushion, is it frozen or not? My opinion was not frozen because the fiber was not supposed to be sticking out to begin with. However, if playing a real jerk or cheater I have been known to argue it either way!(grin)
Hu
This depends entirely on the biker you're arguing with and who's carrying what...
I would have to agree. It looked as if the 2 ball took a slight bounce off the rail after the break. Hard to say for sure, but I am leaning towards not frozen, by the thinnest of margins. I probably would have called a referee over to verify.
The way I learned this rule years ago, is that its not a foul if your opponent doesnt tell you its frozen. So you can go ahead and shoot the Yapp shot if he doesnt tell you. A bit like the 3 foul rule, If your opponent doesnt tell you your on 2 fouls then if you foul for the third time its not a loss.
Let me ask you this Bob, what would you do if you committed 3 consecutive fouls but your opponent never warned you? Would you concede?
Given the consensus the ball has become visibly unfroze. lol...
In the past I've pointed out to him as I've come to the table on two that he is required to warn me. But the vast majority of my opponents know about three fouls.