Is this shot possible

N

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This shot is shown in a book I bought, the author claims Buddy Hall made this shot on ESPN. Does anyone know if it is shown in any accu-stats video or online anywhere? Does anyone think it is possible to get this action? The graphics in the book are so bad, I can't tell if the author is showing the ball deflecting off the 5 ball or the action off the rail sends it down table. I have seen shots with topspin (into the side usually) that get similar action, but never thought it would be possible with draw

I hope I am posting this cuetable correctly:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1ANDd4BSyy2...Cd1UbKe2kMLp1kKyT2kbGr2kWfe3kWhu3kWhxzb4uCtI@
 
Probably not how I'd play the shape, but yeah, it's possible if you bump the balls right.
 
If the cue ball bumps the correct side of the 5 as illustrated in the diagram, then yes, this shot is possible. However, it's not a shot that you need to learn to execute as it involves too much risk. (hit the wrong side of the five and game over)
I also think that when the player mentioned in the book played this shot, the bump into the 5 was more of a cluster breaker than actually using the action off the 5 to get to the two. As you can see, simply replacing the 5 with the CB would have been fine position.
dave
 
What book was it in? It appears to be similar to Cowboy Jimmy Moores draw shot. If you watch any of the trick shot shows every now and then you will see it. I belive you need a slight angle on the shot though, instead of straight in. Takes a big stroke but most of the trickshot guys can pull it off, and no it would not have to hit another ball near it as suggested.

I also cannot see anyone attempting it in a tourny or big match.
 
clarification

Hambone said:
What book was it in? It appears to be similar to Cowboy Jimmy Moores draw shot. If you watch any of the trick shot shows every now and then you will see it. I belive you need a slight angle on the shot though, instead of straight in. Takes a big stroke but most of the trickshot guys can pull it off, and no it would not have to hit another ball near it as suggested.

I also cannot see anyone attempting it in a tourny or big match.
Click to expand...

Clarification: In the book, the diagrammed shot is the only way to get shape on the next ball, I should not have shown the 2 ball in the corner on the CueTable.

I do not believe the author was implying that the "5" ball is used to redirect the ball (as the other replys have indicated). The book implies that the draw and the english make it draw off the rail and then follow parallel to rail. Which direction do you believe the cut is? The author suggests low left english, but does not give info on the cut.

Also, as stated in orginal post, author claims that Buddy Hall made this on a televised tournament in 1991.

I am not trying to learn this shot, other than trying to learn how shots are affected by english and spin, and this shot does not follow standard pool logic.

I would love to see the match where Buddy played this shot.

The book is by Gerry Watson and it is called "101 Big Pool Shots" 2nd Ed.

It has some neat shots, but the drawings are so inaccurate and the explanations are too short that the book needs to be supplemented with one from Byrne or Capelle for all but the most experienced readers. I have some of Gerry's videos, and they are the same way.

Since I collect books and videos for pool, I'm glad I bought them.
 
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The way it's set up on the cuetable diagram it would need a slight cut angle to the right from the shooters perspective. The object ball and cue ball would also need to be closer to the shooter. I belive Mike Massey shots it with the object ball around the area of the spot, but he has a hair better stroke than most.:)
 
ok... lets forget the other balls, In fact lets forget the shot and the draw and all the other balls on the table, just follow the cue ball into the rail and let me see it force follow down the rail. Don't even put other balls on the table

There is a similar shot with a ball being shot into the side pocket where you force follow and the cue curves and hugs the rail, but .... the cue ball's forward spin is deminished by the contact with the OB near the side and the force follow takes over. I'd love to see this one pulled off as posted.
 
This is probably the shot Buddy Hall made playing Kim Davenport in one of the Challenge of Champions tournaments. If it's the same shot, the diagram is way off. The 5-ball should be almost on the rail and close to the point of the side pocket with the cueball and 1-ball about 6-8 inches away from the side pocket. Buddy shot it with extreme draw, the cueball hit the side rail and then spun around the 5-ball and went down table to the 2-ball for position.

The crowd cheered and Buddy had a big grin on his face.
 
MisterBanker said:
This is probably the shot Buddy Hall made playing Kim Davenport in one of the Challenge of Champions tournaments. If it's the same shot, the diagram is way off. The 5-ball should be almost on the rail and close to the point of the side pocket with the cueball and 1-ball about 6-8 inches away from the side pocket. Buddy shot it with extreme draw, the cueball hit the side rail and then spun around the 5-ball and went down table to the 2-ball for position.

The crowd cheered and Buddy had a big grin on his face.
Click to expand...
This is correct. It's a version/related shot to the Jimmy Moore and Mike Massey "circle draw" artistic shot. In the Challenge of Champions of that year, the APA league players were in attendance, IIRC, so I think that's one of the reasons why Buddy shot that shot. The crowd was very much into the match. Promoters please take note.

The color commentator was David Howard who said something like "that's a trick shot that we do," as if it's within the capable of any professional player. Maybe it really is.

Fred
 
its real hard to do that far away from a rail after contact with the object ball but you dont need to hit the 5, just draw the piss out of it. works on a billird table if your jacked up on the shot a bit.
 
> I remember seeing this shot in the first airing of the first COC. Like Cornerman and a couple others mentioned,this is basically a "circular" draw shot,which was shot by Lou Butera,Jimmy Moore,and David Howard on the Meucci trick shot tape,on a slow-ass Gandy to boot. This shot isn't for those with even just average strokes,if you can't draw your ball 7-8 feet from 5-6 feet away,you probably can't do it. It is also best accomplished with pretty clean balls and good fast cloth,although there are things you can use on the cue ball like wax or silicone sprays,but those are probably not legal in competition. The better you hit this shot,the faster it comes back,but I've seen people that can get it back far enough to scratch or pocket a hanger in the bottom corner and it just barely got there. Here is a pretty rough example.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@1EUIu4PYQU1QVvj4kYQU1kUQv2kcxv1lVvj1lXcF1lbeK1lXkE1lWEk4lVkUzb@


The key to this type of draw shot is that the backspin has to grab just a little after contacting the object ball so it draws back off the tangent line before the cue ball hits the rail,which will maximize the spin left on the cue ball. It grabs again after rail contact and slings itself uptable. This is the exact opposite of the side pocket force-follow someone else diagrammed. When really stroked well,you can almost see the cue ball curve twice. Earl did a similar shot against Efren in the 1994 PBT World Championship,but was much further out in the middle of the table,and with 2-3 feet of distance between the cue ball and the object ball. His shot looked like this. Tommy D.



http://CueTable.com/P/?@4BALA2CMfd2...Pd3lMkF3lJIk3lFYH3lAqQ4lCMf1lOpc1lRUe1lRUezb@
 
At this point I'd love to know what the heck the first poster was talking about, and what shot did some of you say could rebound off the opposite side rail using draw and not hitting any balls.

I think there are as many different shots being talked about here as there are posters.

The only thing I do know is,as originally posted, you ARE NOT going to draw straight back across the table, hit the opposite side rail, and instead of bouncing out toward the other side of the table again, hug the long rail.

BTW I don't care is Jesus Christ stroked it.
 
3andstop said:
Well, I sure can't draw good, or use cuetable.com correctly .... LOL .. but this is what I was talking about ... this is shot with high force follow inside english


http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AYpS4BXIK3...PMiA2kMiA2kYpW6kcCe6kblb6kYYN7kVnm7kXtb3kaJT@
Click to expand...

This requires a nice clean force follow stroke but isn't very difficult to do. Actually there is a another shot with exactly the same idea. Just move the cueball and the 1-ball 1 diamond to the right, and bank the 1-ball cross-side and force follow the cueball to the same position with about the same route. Requires harder stroke, but can totally bring the house down, I know ;)

Sorry, tried using the CueTable but didn't manage to draw my shot...
 
3andstop said:
At this point I'd love to know what the heck the first poster was talking about, and what shot did some of you say could rebound off the opposite side rail using draw and not hitting any balls.

I think there are as many different shots being talked about here as there are posters.

The only thing I do know is,as originally posted, you ARE NOT going to draw straight back across the table, hit the opposite side rail, and instead of bouncing out toward the other side of the table again, hug the long rail.

BTW I don't care is Jesus Christ stroked it.
Click to expand...
I looked up the shot in Gerry Watson's book "101 Big Pool Shots." It is pretty much as the OP drew. I'll describe it in words. The object ball is nearly on the head spot. The cue ball is between it and the side pocket with a little angle so that the scratch in the side is not a problem for the draw shot. The cue ball comes back to the side rail near the side pocket, bounces off the side rail maybe a ball diameter or two, and then takes a 50-degree sharp turn to go along the side rail. There are balls on the table near where the cue ball makes its mid-table turn, but they are not involved in the shot except as blockers to justify the position play.

Unfortunately, most of the diagrams in the book are broken. The balls are drawn as large as the pockets. This makes it very difficult to see the required angles and paths and such. Surprisingly, some of the drills have the object balls drawn about the correct size -- there is no way you could make the "L" drill understandable with balls the size of watermelons.

As for the shot being impossible, I think that's true. While players like Sayginer, Yow and Massey have enough masse (maybe with silicone) to get more or less the right path even with the object ball two diamonds from the rail, there is no way they could keep the cue ball from bouncing too much off the cushion. The rule of thumb is that if the cue ball is drawn or massed to a cushion, the bounce out is going to be very roughly 70% of the run in, at least.
 
Neil said:
Bob: Do you think it's possible to have just enough draw to get to the rail, and then sidespin spins it down the rail?
Click to expand...
Even maximum side spin can't change a 45-degree incoming angle to nearly parallel to the cushion. Maybe to 22 degrees outbound angle.
 
ok I tried it. it is possible to draw the cue back to the rail and create a masse effect after contact with the rail forcing the ball down table along the rail. i could not make this happen if the object ball was passed the spot as in the first description. of course i was in a bar on crap equipment and the cloth was mud. the cue only bounced about 6 to 8 inches off sometimes less before the english took and ball turned down table
 
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