Issues with the jaws and other questions

[CreeDo]

At my local pool hall there are a few issues and I was wondering what kind of advice I could find here.

1. One or two pockets are notorious for spitting balls out. It looks like the jaws of these pockets are rounded (one seems bowed outward, the other inward). The room owner says there are these hardened leather-like things that go on the ends of the rails to make the jaws. Is it normal for these to develop a curve? If not, what could have caused it? And how to fix it? I assume the cloth on the rail will have to be replaced at a minimum.

Also the cloth seems to be folded or bunched a bit at the jaws, is there a way to fold the cloth on the rail so that the jaw is perfectly smooth? Sometimes I wonder if the small folds in the cloth are affecting the balls when they rattle out (prolly just my shooting though lol)

2. Do most rooms replace rails as a full set of 4, or is that considered too costly for most places? Right now we're replacing rails that have obvious dead spots but I'm thinking it'd be better if all rails were the same speed, even if the unreplaced rails seem lively.

3. I've heard there's beeswax or something that goes between the cloth and the slate. How's that work? Doesn't that get quickly flattened or worn away? It seems like it'd make grooves or something, unless it's just a super thin layer. What's the idea behind it?

4. Most tables (in every pool hall I've played in) seem to develop sunken pits at the foot spot where the top ball of the rack goes. Why? Is it because that top ball is getting smacked every time on hard breaks and making the divot? And is there a cure for this? It makes racking a pain in the ass sometimes, and a bad roll across that spot can really send someone into fits if it ruins their position.

5. If liquid gets spilled on the cloth, what's the best thing to do if you can't replace it right away? If it's plain water will the cloth be fine?

6. We have plastic pocket insets that are nailed in, and the nails seem to constantly be coming loose. They get hammered back down and a few days later the nails are sticking out again. Would different nails solve the problem? Crazy Glue? Different insets?

7. About how often should good simonis 860 be replaced, at a minimum?
Also, we have one table with 760. Does ANYone put 300 on a pool table or is that considered weird?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

PS: I hope I haven't given the wrong idea about our local room, the owner takes care of the tables, but we've been having some trouble finding a reliable mechanic

 

[manwon]

At my local pool hall there are a few issues and I was wondering what kind of advice I could find here.

1. One or two pockets are notorious for spitting balls out. It looks like the jaws of these pockets are rounded (one seems bowed outward, the other inward). The room owner says there are these hardened leather-like things that go on the ends of the rails to make the jaws. Is it normal for these to develop a curve? If not, what could have caused it? And how to fix it? I assume the cloth on the rail will have to be replaced at a minimum.

Also the cloth seems to be folded or bunched a bit at the jaws, is there a way to fold the cloth on the rail so that the jaw is perfectly smooth? Sometimes I wonder if the small folds in the cloth are affecting the balls when they rattle out (prolly just my shooting though lol)

2. Do most rooms replace rails as a full set of 4, or is that considered too costly for most places? Right now we're replacing rails that have obvious dead spots but I'm thinking it'd be better if all rails were the same speed, even if the unreplaced rails seem lively.

3. I've heard there's beeswax or something that goes between the cloth and the slate. How's that work? Doesn't that get quickly flattened or worn away? It seems like it'd make grooves or something, unless it's just a super thin layer. What's the idea behind it?

4. Most tables (in every pool hall I've played in) seem to develop sunken pits at the foot spot where the top ball of the rack goes. Why? Is it because that top ball is getting smacked every time on hard breaks and making the divot? And is there a cure for this? It makes racking a pain in the ass sometimes, and a bad roll across that spot can really send someone into fits if it ruins their position.

5. If liquid gets spilled on the cloth, what's the best thing to do if you can't replace it right away? If it's plain water will the cloth be fine?

6. We have plastic pocket insets that are nailed in, and the nails seem to constantly be coming loose. They get hammered back down and a few days later the nails are sticking out again. Would different nails solve the problem? Crazy Glue? Different insets?

7. About how often should good simonis 860 be replaced, at a minimum?
Also, we have one table with 760. Does ANYone put 300 on a pool table or is that considered weird?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

PS: I hope I haven't given the wrong idea about our local room, the owner takes care of the tables, but we've been having some trouble finding a reliable mechanic

1. One or two pockets are notorious for spitting balls out. It looks like the jaws of these pockets are rounded (one seems bowed outward, the other inward). The room owner says there are these hardened leather-like things that go on the ends of the rails to make the jaws. Is it normal for these to develop a curve? If not, what could have caused it? And how to fix it? I assume the cloth on the rail will have to be replaced at a minimum.

First of all, it is not normal for the pocket opening to curve in or out with time. Each table has it's own specifications for the cut of the pocket. The hard rubber you are talking about is called a pocket facing. This is designed to deaden the hit of the edge of the rubber, and to protect the edge of the rail. Many times inexperienced table mechanics attempt to tighten pockets by adding additional facings to the edge of the rail. If done to an extreme or not done according to the normal dimensions of the table, bank and cut angles will be affected. Another problem occurs when the rails are replaced and the proper cut is over looked. This can also cause all the problems you have mentioned.

2. Do most rooms replace rails as a full set of 4, or is that considered too costly for most places? Right now we're replacing rails that have obvious dead spots but I'm thinking it'd be better if all rails were the same speed, even if the unreplaced rails seem lively.

When rails are replaced they should be replaced as a set. I have never seen rails sold individually, to my knowledge they are only sold as sets. A decent sets of rails for any table will not cost more than $90 for the rubber itself.

3. I've heard there's beeswax or something that goes between the cloth and the slate. How's that work? Doesn't that get quickly flattened or worn away? It seems like it'd make grooves or something, unless it's just a super thin layer. What's the idea behind it?

The bee's wax is used only at the joints in the slate. The wax is melted with a small torch and the jointed area of the slate is filled with wax where ever there are any gaps. The excess is removed with a razor blade, upon completion any inconsistent areas should be smooth and level.

4. Most tables (in every pool hall I've played in) seem to develop sunken pits at the foot spot where the top ball of the rack goes. Why? Is it because that top ball is getting smacked every time on hard breaks and making the divot? And is there a cure for this? It makes racking a pain in the ass sometimes, and a bad roll across that spot can really send someone into fits if it ruins their position.

The sunken pits at the spot area are caused by uneducated people pounding on the head ball when trying to rack the balls, and when the spots are allowed to wear out to the point where the rack area is no longer level. These pits are dents / damage to the tables slate, however they can be repaired when the table is recovered, by filling them with a little bondo and insuring that the area is sanded smooth and level when dry.

5. If liquid gets spilled on the cloth, what's the best thing to do if you can't replace it right away? If it's plain water will the cloth be fine?

The first thing to do is get the liquid absorbed with cloths or paper towels as quickly as possible. Then the entire area should be wiped down with a clean damp cloth to remove any residue from the spill. In most cases the cloth will not need to be replaced if cleaned quickly. If there are stains when dry a carpet stain remover can be used in most cases to remove the stains. REMEMBER TO TEST A SMALL AREA FIRST, some of these stain removes may greatly fade the area of the cloth. Last, another reason that spills must be removed quickly is because the rails and the slate will also absorb moisture, which will effect play, and any sticky substance will also be transfered to the balls which will effect the way they roll and impart spin.

6. We have plastic pocket insets that are nailed in, and the nails seem to constantly be coming loose. They get hammered back down and a few days later the nails are sticking out again. Would different nails solve the problem? Crazy Glue? Different insets?

First, if a nail starts to come out do not hammer it back into the same hole, and replace the nail. Obviously it has already lost it's ability to hold anything at that location. Now longer nails may also solve this problem, however sometimes additional wood may need to be added at the pocket facing on old tables that will no longer hold nails due to age.

7. About how often should good simonis 860 be replaced, at a minimum?
Also, we have one table with 760. Does ANYone put 300 on a pool table or is that considered weird?

Simonis cloth can last for a very long time depending on the amount of use it gets and how it is taken care of. If the tables are not brushed and vacuumed at least daily, the cloth will wear much quicker due to dirt and chalk. Chalk is very abrasive and it will break down the cloth fibers with time if it is allowed to build up. Another thing that greatly affects the cloths wear are the balls. If the balls are in poor condition with or without rough edges they will cause additional wear to the cloth. The only balls I recommend are Aramith pool balls, because they use the best form of phenolic available, and they have an additive which is added to the material that helps prevent friction marks that form due to heat transfer during masse, jump and any other type of hard shots. Aramith balls are also kept to the highest tolerance and weight of any pool balls made, they also make Brunswick Centenial balls thought by most to be the best balls made today.The friction marks are the white spots and lines that form on the cloth. The lines mainly form from the foot spot to head spot from breaking. The spots occur where ever someone shoots hard, or shoots down on the cue ball. Using cheap balls, especially cheap cue balls, can make new cloth look like shit in a matter of weeks, and there is no way to correct this once it occurs.

Hope this helps, and have a great night!!!!!!!

 

[CreeDo]

Well damn, you answered everything thoroughly and nicely. Thank you so much This reads like a how-to of table care. I'll grab the owner's ear and see what kind of changes I can get started.

Thank you again!

 

[realkingcobra]

The sunken pits at the spot area are caused by uneducated people pounding on the head ball when trying to rack the balls, and when the spots are allowed to wear out to the point where the rack area is no longer level. These pits are dents / damage to the tables slate, however they can be repaired when the table is recovered, by filling them with a little bondo and insuring that the area is sanded smooth and level when dry.

Craig, I don't mean to correct you, but you're a litttttle bit off on your answer to this one.

The divot, or sunken area at the spot is caused by breaking the balls. When the cue ball is making contact with the point ball, in most cases it's airborne, which means that it's impacting the point ball in an above center hit, which causes the object ball to be driven downward into the cloth, constantly beating in the same spot of cloth. This causes the cloth to wear thin at the spot, thereby causing a pit so to speak. The purpose of the spot is to put a buffer between the bottom of the object ball and the cloth in an effort to slow down the effect of the wearing of the cloth, creating the pit. The slow grind of the point ball will eventually wear through the cloth to the slate is you don't do something to help protect it. As far as making a dent in the slate, in 24 years I've only had to bondo one slate for a dent, and that was because the cloth was never changed, so the breaking of the balls continued on for who knows how long on the bare slate. If dripping water can drill a hole through rock, what do you think an object ball can do to a slate being slammed/ground into it a few thousand times, if there's no protection between the slate and the balls.

 

[manwon]

The sunken pits at the spot area are caused by uneducated people pounding on the head ball when trying to rack the balls, and when the spots are allowed to wear out to the point where the rack area is no longer level. These pits are dents / damage to the tables slate, however they can be repaired when the table is recovered, by filling them with a little bondo and insuring that the area is sanded smooth and level when dry.

Craig, I don't mean to correct you, but you're a litttttle bit off on your answer to this one.

The divot, or sunken area at the spot is caused by breaking the balls. When the cue ball is making contact with the point ball, in most cases it's airborne, which means that it's impacting the point ball in an above center hit, which causes the object ball to be driven downward into the cloth, constantly beating in the same spot of cloth. This causes the cloth to wear thin at the spot, thereby causing a pit so to speak. The purpose of the spot is to put a buffer between the bottom of the object ball and the cloth in an effort to slow down the effect of the wearing of the cloth, creating the pit. The slow grind of the point ball will eventually wear through the cloth to the slate is you don't do something to help protect it. As far as making a dent in the slate, in 24 years I've only had to bondo one slate for a dent, and that was because the cloth was never changed, so the breaking of the balls continued on for who knows how long on the bare slate. If dripping water can drill a hole through rock, what do you think an object ball can do to a slate being slammed/ground into it a few thousand times, if there's no protection between the slate and the balls.

Thanks much, for the correction, thats what this forum is all about getting the proper information out for everyone to use.

Thanks and have a great day!!!!

 

[CreeDo]

yeah, I was wondering about the cause of that divot cuz our usual players are so ignorant, they don't even know enough to tap the top ball with another ball to force it to stay lol... they all just settle for a loose rack.

So does anyone have experience with simonis 300 cloth? Is that what they use on billiard tables to make it roll and roll forever?

 

[realkingcobra]

yeah, I was wondering about the cause of that divot cuz our usual players are so ignorant, they don't even know enough to tap the top ball with another ball to force it to stay lol... they all just settle for a loose rack.

So does anyone have experience with simonis 300 cloth? Is that what they use on billiard tables to make it roll and roll forever?

Yes, it is.

Glen

 

[manwon]

yeah, I was wondering about the cause of that divot cuz our usual players are so ignorant, they don't even know enough to tap the top ball with another ball to force it to stay lol... they all just settle for a loose rack.

So does anyone have experience with simonis 300 cloth? Is that what they use on billiard tables to make it roll and roll forever?

Simonis 300 Rapid Billiard cloth may be a little to fast for pool tables, 860 or 760 should be sufficent for most any players needs.

 

[Dartman]

300 is overkill for a pocket table. Much too fast. Some may not know it's finished on both sides. As Dog stated, 860/760 is the better choice.

 

[CreeDo]

ah ok, thanks... I talked to someone who had actually played on it and he said you're pretty much rolling every ball in, and even a centerball plain vanilla draw shot takes strangely and is hard to control... a bit like ice skating with rollerblades lol.

Why do they finish on both sides? Is that the main secret to the added speed?

 

[Dartman]

Why do they finish on both sides? Is that the main secret to the added speed?

The main ingredient is the special sauce, lol, no the threads are extra fine.
Edited to meet rkc strict editorial guidelines-
Since 300 is finished on both sides it can be flipped and reinstalled to get extended life when
one side starts to wear.

 

[realkingcobra]

The main ingredient is the special sauce, lol, no the threads are extra fine. When one side starts to wear flip it to the other side and reinstall.

LOL...nice try, although John Terink that use to own the 211 club in Seattle, WA did have me turn the cloth over and reinstall it on some of his 9ft tables that not a lot of people played on.

The reason the cloth is finished "shaved" on both sides is to make it lay as flat as possible to the thread weave of the cloth. Shaving the cloth so to speak, removes the furry padded thickness of the cloth, leaving just the fibers of the threads between the object ball and the slate, besides having a thinner weave. That is why it's so fast.

Glen

 

[Dartman]

LOL...nice try, Glen

Yep it's a thinner weave with extra fine threads. I guess the short answer wasn't good enough for his highness.
Flipping it is a suggestion for extended life since it's finished the same on both sides.
I suppose I could have been more specific on that point.

Nice try? Yea whatever.

 

[realkingcobra]

Yep it's a thinner weave with extra fine threads. I guess the short answer wasn't good enough for his highness.
Flipping it is a suggestion for extended life since it's finished the same on both sides.
I suppose I could have been more specific on that point.

Nice try? Yea whatever.

As a pro like you are suppose to be Dartman, why would you even give such lame advice about fliping the cloth over and using it again? Don't you know that just because you can, that don't make it right! Only hacks would do that...!

Glen

 

[CreeDo]

I think you guys should mud wrestle to work out this tension.

I find the idea of reusing it kinda interesting actually, I mean if the room owner can't afford at all to replace the cloth, it's better to flip it and put it on another table, or even flip it on the same table to extend the life, right?

It sounds so thin and delicate that masses and noobs trying to draw would punch 1,000 little holes into it though.

 

[Dartman]

As a pro like you are suppose to be Dartman, why would you even give such lame advice about fliping the cloth over and using it again? Don't you know that just because you can, that don't make it right! Only hacks would do that...! Glen

I picked that tip up from Ivan Lee some time ago. I would venture to say that if the mfg states it's an ok thing to do then who am I to argue. Next time you speak with him be sure to also tell him his tip was lame.

Personally I'd rather sell a fresh cut of cloth but if someone chooses to use the flip side of 300 to get a little more life from the cloth I say go for it.

 

[Dartman]

I think you guys should mud wrestle to work out this tension.I find the idea of reusing it kinda interesting actually, I mean if the room owner can't afford at all to replace the cloth, it's better to flip it and put it on another table, or even flip it on the same table to extend the life, right? It sounds so thin and delicate that masses and noobs trying to draw would punch 1,000 little holes into it though.

Tension? LOL. Nah. Amusing? Sometimes.
As you browse the threads you'll find some that just have more of a know-it-all agenda and demand a bigger soap box then others. Whatever.
300 is rather expensive and typically only put on carom tables and carom is a game that I doubt you'll find too many of the noobs and bangers playing. A top shelf carom venue would more then likely just replace the cloth. A room with say 1 carom table (assuming they use 300) that gets low or somewhat limited use can defer the expense of new cloth for a while longer by reusing the flip side. Note I'm not saying anyone should flip the cloth, only that it can be done. Whoever owns the table would have to judge if it works for them.

 

[realkingcobra]

I picked that tip up from Ivan Lee some time ago. I would venture to say that if the mfg states it's an ok thing to do then who am I to argue. Next time you speak with him be sure to also tell him his tip was lame.

Personally I'd rather sell a fresh cut of cloth but if someone chooses to use the flip side of 300 to get a little more life from the cloth I say go for it.

Dartman, not arguing with you about flipping cloth, I just don't agree with taking a cloth that I put on tight as hell off, only to turn around and try to put it back on the same table. At the 211 club in Seattle, I did it because I was paid to do it, so it wasn't really my doing. After re-installing it on some of the 9ft's, I later had to come back and re-recover the tables with Simonis 760...(no 860 made at the time) because no one wanted to play on the tables because the balls rolled everywhere but where you wanted them to. So it's been my experience that it's a waste of time and effort to turn the cloth over and use it again. Sometimes pool room owners can be hacks as well with some of their brainy ideas, but in the long run it just costs them more that if they'd have just recovered the table with new cloth in the first place.

Glen

 

[Eddie4269]

As a pro like you are suppose to be Dartman, why would you even give such lame advice about fliping the cloth over and using it again? Don't you know that just because you can, that don't make it right! Only hacks would do that...!

Glen

The late Harry Sims (former World 3-Cushion Champ) of Airport Billiards in St. Louis used to use 860 on his bar-boxes, but get this - he installed it wrong side up. He claimed it played about like Championship, but wore like iron. (Most of his customers were teenage ball-bangers).

I can't attest to how it played or how long it lasted, I only went there to play 3-cushion. Just thought it was an interesting observation and wondered if anyone else had heard of this or if it was just another of Harry's ideosynchrasies.

 

[realkingcobra]

The late Harry Sims (former World 3-Cushion Champ) of Airport Billiards in St. Louis used to use 860 on his bar-boxes, but get this - he installed it wrong side up. He claimed it played about like Championship, but wore like iron. (Most of his customers were teenage ball-bangers).

I can't attest to how it played or how long it lasted, I only went there to play 3-cushion. Just thought it was an interesting observation and wondered if anyone else had heard of this or if it was just another of Harry's ideosynchrasies.

Actually you're closer to the truth than you know...LOL One of the reasons that Simonis don't do so well on bar box tables is because they shave the cloth so close to the treads that it plays the way it does, BUT when you remove that close layer of loose nap if you will, you also allow the balls to ride more directly on the fibers of the threads...giving you the ball burnish marks characteristic of Simonis cloth. Simonis is actually working on a "Bar Box" cloth version of the 860, only they're not going to shave the cloth so close to the treads, therefore giving the threads more of a protective layer of longer nap if you will, that the balls will roll on, leaving less burnish marks on the cloth...kind of like playing on 860 upside down...fuzzy side up.

Glen