It was simply amazing!

[Maniac]

I remember this time at Amsterdam Billiards several years ago Jeanette Lee was practicing on one table just throwing balls out and hitting them, nothing serious. On the next table George "Ginky" Sansouci and Danny Barouty are playing straight pool...and lights out straight pool at that...On the next table Johhny Ervolino is playing someone and running what would be 140+ balls. Almost everyone in the room was watching Jeanette Lee!

I'm sorry, but as hardcore of a fan I am of pool, both professional AND amateur, I would have been watching JL practicing too. Hmmmmmm....let me see........JL in black leather bending over a pool table or several other men shooting one another.....hmmmmmm.....tough decision !!!

Of course, I would have eventually wandered over to one of the other tables to watch some "real" pool .

Maniac (knows his priorties as a "horny old fart"!!!)

 

[HawaiianEye]

Alex Pagalayan stopped in Hawaiian Brian's pool hall here in Honolulu last night. He didn't play, but I heard of his visit when I was in there today. I heard it from one of the old-school players and I didn't think to ask if anybody other than him and a few others knew who Alex was.

I grew up in pool halls many years ago...before the internet and when the only way to get pool information was by subscribing to one of the few pool magazines or to hear it word-of-mouth from others. I knew the names of many world-class players and road hustlers long before I ever knew what they looked like.

It doesn't surprise me that lots of today's players (bar bangers, league players, etc.) don't know who the top professionals are. There is virtually no coverage of pool today in the USA...save for the internet on pool related websites.

 

[jcrack_corn]

is he a 7?

 

[lorider]

I'm sorry, but as hardcore of a fan I am of pool, both professional AND amateur, I would have been watching JL practicing too. Hmmmmmm....let me see........JL in black leather bending over a pool table or several other men shooting one another.....hmmmmmm.....tough decision !!!

Of course, I would have eventually wandered over to one of the other tables to watch some "real" pool .

Maniac (knows his priorties as a "horny old fart"!!!)

we have the same priorities maniac. she would have had my undivided attention for quite a while also lol. eventually reality would set in and i would realize i would not get a chance in hell in scoring with her and go check out some "real pool " .

on a more serious note i think the problem is lack of marketing or advertising.

yea i admit i am a league player " barely above banger status" but i am a pool fanatic.

when the black widow came to town it was advertised for months in advance. every body was there.

around the same time ( a month before or a month ) later we had a pool tournament here with some higher level players here. dont know whether they all pros or not. talking about john hennessey, max eberle and some others. no advertising to speak of, if i had known about it i would have been there. hell the place isnt 5 miles from my house .

as far as pictures in pool halls go my hangout has a picture of louie roberts in it. i didnt know who he was. i asked the owner who he was and found out he had played in there often . i used to go there sometimes back then and didnt know who he was.

is it my fault these guys are noy marketed ? i am sure there are a lot of league players like me who would love to meet a pro and watch and hopefully get to learn a little more about the game .

i know a lot o of men pros names , mostly by reading on this forum, billiard digest, inside pool etc etc. would i know them if they stood beside me ? most of them i would not recognize simply because i never see them on tv , just a few pictures on the internet mags.

i could spot jennette, allison , karen jasmine ga young kim and a hell of a lot more women pros a mile away simply because of wpba marketing and tournaments on espn when i can find it. nobody does that for the men and yet most of the blame falls on the lowly league players that most pros are unknown.

but there is some substance to the idea a lot of league players simply dont care to know about pros.

lets compare it to pro baseball. in my younger days i played softball. was addicted to it played both slow and fast pitch. i played on a team that was ranked 3rd in the nation 2 years in a row in usssa. was i expected to know who the pros were just because i was an amateur in the same sport? i didnt care who they were or how well they played or who won what. as far as i was concerned they were in another universe compared to where i was in the sport. the same attitude could be said of a lot of amateur pool players.

sorry for the long rant but a subject like this is hard to cover in a few words

 

[sfleinen]

...neither of which were poolplayers (they were merely actors playing a role), let alone pros.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jackie Gleason was a pretty good player.

No kidding. Scott, I'm pretty surprised you said that. There's a little history behind Jackie Gleason, where he had quite a few forks in the road in his life. One of those forks was to become a professional pool player, but the "acting road" was the road he took. Jackie did play extremely well. Paul Newman was the only one who was coached by Willie Mosconi during the filming of The Hustler. Willie took one look at Jackie on the table, and said that "this man doesn't need any coaching." If you'll remember, also, there were lots of episodes of the Honeymooners where a pool table / playing pool was involved (e.g. Kramden and Norton playing pool).

Somewhere in my boxes of books, I have a couple of biographical books on "The Great One", but I recall a lot from the last time I've read 'em.

-Sean

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Roger;

We here on az are true enthusiasts.

The vast majority of folks out playing in leagues are simply using pool as a social outlet with no particular interest in pro-level pool.

If pro pool was regularly featured on tv, then league players would have a chance of knowing who SVB is.

So, the answer IMO is yes, that pool is poorly marketed.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[paksat]

Simple question with a simple answer: Lack of professional marketing and advertising.

TAR is doing this and they may have found a niche that is at it's humble beginnings.

Like Jay said, it's as simple as putting the mosconi cup on ESPN.

It's just that simple :/

 

[macguy]

No kidding. Scott, I'm pretty surprised you said that. There's a little history behind Jackie Gleason, where he had quite a few forks in the road in his life. One of those forks was to become a professional pool player, but the "acting road" was the road he took. Jackie did play extremely well. Paul Newman was the only one who was coached by Willie Mosconi during the filming of The Hustler. Willie took one look at Jackie on the table, and said that "this man doesn't need any coaching." If you'll remember, also, there were lots of episodes of the Honeymooners where a pool table / playing pool was involved (e.g. Kramden and Norton playing pool).

Somewhere in my boxes of books, I have a couple of biographical books on "The Great One", but I recall a lot from the last time I've read 'em.

-Sean

Could play as compared to what? He was not helpless but I doubt could beat anyone who plays on a regular base on this board. He sort of looked like he could play, made a proper bridge and stroked the balls but could not really play. I saw him play several times in person, once at a party where everybody kissed his a$$ and another time at his house in Inverrary Florida when we were there doing his table. He just banged balls hitting everything 100 mph. with no concept of position.

Pretty much what you see in any pool room any night from average players around the room. I don't know, he probably played better when he was young but I am pretty hard to fool, I can tell if someone knows or ever knew what they are doing even if they miss everything. I was a little embarrassed for him, his ego was so big, it never occurred to him that we were not necessarily impressed and may actually know something about the game as he set up silly trick shots to show us.

How many guys have you met who tell you they paid their way through college playing pool yet they can't even make a bridge. What, they forget everything they ever knew about the game? People who can play look like they can play even if they miss everything. In fact it is hard to hide, it is just there.

 

[sfleinen]

Could play as compared to what? He was not helpless but I doubt could beat anyone who plays on a regular base on this board. He sort of looked like he could play, made a proper bridge and stroked the balls but could not really play. I saw him play several times in person, once at a party where everybody kissed his a$$ and another time at his house in Inverrary Florida when we were there doing his table. He just banged balls hitting everything 100 mph. with no concept of position.

Pretty much what you see in any pool room any night from average players around the room. I don't know, he probably played better when he was young but I am pretty hard to fool, I can tell if someone knows or ever knew what they are doing even if they miss everything. I was a little embarrassed for him, his ego was so big, it never occurred to him that we were not necessarily impressed and may actually know something about the game as he set up silly trick shots to show us.

How many guys have you met who tell you they paid their way through college playing pool yet they can't even make a bridge. What, they forget everything they ever knew about the game? People who can play look like they can play even if they miss everything. In fact it is hard to hide, it is just there.

macguy:

Let's not compare someone who, in the sunset years of his life, probably had not picked up a cue, to that same someone in his earlier years that played pool for money (read: everyday), and also worked and ran a pool hall. I would venture to guess that in the time when The Hustler was made, Jackie was a LOT better than in his retirement years. Just because someone has a table in their house, don't think for a minute that table gets used on a regular basis and that the owner is "just a killer on the thing" -- there are, I'm sure, LOTS of AZB'ers reading this that can vouch for this fact. I can't vouch for Jackie, since I wasn't there. But I can say this: when you're trying to do an "exhibition" for guests, and you want to make sure you don't look like an absolute fool, you intentionally set up simple trick shots, and you make sure to hit all shots "confidently." I'm not sure if Jackie knew those in attendance were actual/regular players of the game, so instead of looking like "the guy who can't even make a bridge and hit balls tentatively," he probably made sure to leave those with the impression that he can really hit 'em. Those who play pool regularly will see right through this, as you did. But don't forget the audience, and what Jackie was probably trying to do.

You are correct with those who say they paid their way through college playing pool, yet to even an occasional player's eyes, that same person can't even make a basic bridge or even stand correctly. This goes without saying. But don't compare "lack of experience" with "rust." I'm sure that if anyone asked Jackie on the side (privately and discreetly, so as not to embarrass a very proud man), and ask him in a clever way -- e.g. "Jackie, that's a nice stroke; how often do you play?" -- you'd find out he probably didn't play much at all anymore. The sunset years of such an iconic figure are still demanding, in doing PR and guest appearances.

And, unfortunately, Jackie was a proud man -- confident, boisterous, and overt. The life of the party; when he walked in to the room, it lit up. Many people are adverse to a person like this, and so every little thing that person does wrong, is magnified exponentially in their eyes. Jackie was no exception to this. I met Jackie back in the early 1980's when he was a guest to a private party of a friend of mine. At first, he was kind of aloof; if one wasn't prepared for this kind of reception, and if you're the type of person who is adverse to "any person who gets his @ss kissed by 'the common man'," it *could* put you off. But I knew the man just had his guard up around strangers; after a little while when he felt more comfortable, he opened up, and I mean REALLY opened up. The life of the party, like I said.

Anyway, thanks for your post,
-Sean

 

[macguy]

macguy:

Let's not compare someone who, in the sunset years of his life, probably had not picked up a cue, to that same someone in his earlier years that played pool for money (read: everyday), and also worked and ran a pool hall. I would venture to guess that in the time when The Hustler was made, Jackie was a LOT better than in his retirement years. Just because someone has a table in their house, don't think for a minute that table gets used on a regular basis and that the owner is "just a killer on the thing" -- there are, I'm sure, LOTS of AZB'ers reading this that can vouch for this fact. I can't vouch for Jackie, since I wasn't there. But I can say this: when you're trying to do an "exhibition" for guests, and you want to make sure you don't look like an absolute fool, you intentionally set up simple trick shots, and you make sure to hit all shots "confidently." I'm not sure if Jackie knew those in attendance were actual/regular players of the game, so instead of looking like "the guy who can't even make a bridge and hit balls tentatively," he probably made sure to leave those with the impression that he can really hit 'em. Those who play pool regularly will see right through this, as you did. But don't forget the audience, and what Jackie was probably trying to do.

You are correct with those who say they paid their way through college playing pool, yet to even an occasional player's eyes, that same person can't even make a basic bridge or even stand correctly. This goes without saying. But don't compare "lack of experience" with "rust." I'm sure that if anyone asked Jackie on the side (privately and discreetly, so as not to embarrass a very proud man), and ask him in a clever way -- e.g. "Jackie, that's a nice stroke; how often do you play?" -- you'd find out he probably didn't play much at all anymore. The sunset years of such an iconic figure are still demanding, in doing PR and guest appearances.

And, unfortunately, Jackie was a proud man -- confident, boisterous, and overt. The life of the party; when he walked in to the room, it lit up. Many people are adverse to a person like this, and so every little thing that person does wrong, is magnified exponentially in their eyes. Jackie was no exception to this. I met Jackie back in the early 1980's when he was a guest to a private party of a friend of mine. At first, he was kind of aloof; if one wasn't prepared for this kind of reception, and if you're the type of person who is adverse to "any person who gets his @ss kissed by 'the common man'," it *could* put you off. But I knew the man just had his guard up around strangers; after a little while when he felt more comfortable, he opened up, and I mean REALLY opened up. The life of the party, like I said.

Anyway, thanks for your post,
-Sean

I hope what I said was not in anyway to demean the man, he was a great guy. In fact I used to see him almost everyday when I was working construction. We were working on the "Greens of Inverrery" where he had his house. From 10 floors up we could see the whole course. You could not miss him, he was always in like bright green or yellow and had like 20 people around him when he was playing. He waved to the workers if they yelled out his name. They played the Jackie Gleason's Inverrary Classic there, golf became is life from what I have read, the last thing he wanted to do was work.

When we did his table he gave us a $100.00 tip each. This was in the early 70's before "Smokey and the Bandit", he was retired. Other then a few guest spots on TV did pretty much nothing but play golf. Smokey&TB gave him a second career and whole new audience I am sure surprised and delighted him.

 

[inside_english]

I just came from Bull Shooters where Shane Van Boening showed up tonight unannounced and started hitting balls on one of the 9-ft Gold Crowns. I got the camera out and started taking some pictures, and after a few minutes of that, league players started coming up and asking me who I am taking pictures of. When I told them, they said they'd never heard of him before and wanted to know if he was any good. There must have been at least six or seven exchanges like that.

That got me to wondering...are lower eschalon players that disinterested in what's going on with professional pool these days; or is it that professional pool is just poorly promoted?

Roger

Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it is a combination.
I was asked to join an APA team a couple of years ago. Even though I only played for three sessions before quitting, I did meet a lot of people.

Almost all of them were not aware of any professional events, players etc.
Some of them had heard of "that Asian girl, what's-her-name?" or they mentioned Mike Sigel or Buddy Hall.

Most of them could not name even one Philippino player, and a lot of them was not even aware of an event called the U.S. Open.

I got the impression that these league players...at least the ones I met, just wanted to play in the league because it was fun, they only had to play $7 per week and maybe they might go to Vegas...but most of them did not seem really interested in what was happening in the professional world of pool.

A few times I mentioned how excited I was about an upcoming TAR match...and I after I explained what or who TAR was about, I started seeing the deer-in-headlights look cross their faces.

Please do not take this as an APA-bashing response, even though some of the forum members can't seem to help themselves. Some of you see the letters 'APA' and immediately your hackles are raised and you're ready to pounce.

I am only describing the APA because that was the only league I had ever joined.

I don't think they don't care...I just think they don't know.

IMO...league pool is a separate world from the one we live in.

 

[macguy]

Without reading the rest of the thread, I think it is a combination.
I was asked to join an APA team a couple of years ago. Even though I only played for three sessions before quitting, I did meet a lot of people.

Almost all of them were not aware of any professional events, players etc.
Some of them had heard of "that Asian girl, what's-her-name?" or they mentioned Mike Sigel or Buddy Hall.

Most of them could not name even one Philippino player, and a lot of them was not even aware of an event called the U.S. Open.

I got the impression that these league players...at least the ones I met, just wanted to play in the league because it was fun, they only had to play $7 per week and maybe they might go to Vegas...but most of them did not seem really interested in what was happening in the professional world of pool.

A few times I mentioned how excited I was about an upcoming TAR match...and I after I explained what or who TAR was about, I started seeing the deer-in-headlights look cross their faces.

Please do not take this as an APA-bashing response, even though some of the forum members can't seem to help themselves. Some of you see the letters 'APA' and immediately your hackles are raised and you're ready to pounce.

I am only describing the APA because that was the only league I had ever joined.

I don't think they don't care...I just think they don't know.

IMO...league pool is a separate world from the one we live in.

Most of these leagues are what there are, recreation, a night out, social and so on. Not you I am sure, but I don't get some of the complaining about leagues by some players; they knew what it was before they joined. I think for some it is being a big fish in a small pond, they like being a star among the weaker players. Reality is though, it may be best to not join a league if you are a really serious player. Not to mention, a lot of those people just want to have fun and are not interested preached to.

A lot of these people can be completely off the wall. One of the last times I was in a bar a guy shows me a cue he said belonged to his grandfather who used to play with Mosconi. It was a Players cue that could not have been more the a few years old. The last thing you want to do is challenge this guys story about his cue. By the way, he said he had turned down $3000.00 for it. There are a lot of nutty people in those bars especially around the pool table.

 

[inside_english]

This is a good point. Very much a silver lining to being the best in the world but virtually unknown.

I remember a few years ago there was a commercial (forgot the product) where the top rodeo rider from Texas or somewhere was in New York City. In the commercial, he made the statement, "Out here, no one knows who I am."

Actually, I think the ad was for American Express. Something about the card knowing who he was no matter where he went.

I think it is a combination of demographics, promotion, and generated-interest.
I say "generated" because most of the threads here are correct...most room owners themselves don't know enough, or don't care enough to bother promoting professional pool, or having pictures etc. of pro players.

It's up to us to spread the word, I guess. I don't mind doing it.

Of course it doesn't help when commentators still say "Shane Van Bowing" or "Effrum"...Grrrrr!

 

[inside_english]

I had a similar experience when I went to Sioux Falls for a TDY while I was in the military in 2008. I had met Shane before, so I was comfortable enough to approach him for a game. We played a mixture of one pocket and 10 ball for about 4 or 5 hours on his table in the basement of his pool room. It wasn't a very "social" practice session, so we didn't talk much. His focus is amazing! When all was said and done I had donated $100 to him.

Shane is not only an amazing player, but very willing to give back to the fans. Shane is a great ambassador for the game.

One of my favorite experiences at Valley Forge is when SVB decides to step into the pit. You can feel the excitement and hear the murmurings as we are all waiting and wondering what he is going to do, or who he is going to play.

 

[macguy]

I remember a few years ago there was a commercial (forgot the product) where the top rodeo rider from Texas or somewhere was in New York City. In the commercial, he made the statement, "Out here, no one knows who I am."

Actually, I think the ad was for American Express. Something about the card knowing who he was no matter where he went.

I think it is a combination of demographics, promotion, and generated-interest.
I say "generated" because most of the threads here are correct...most room owners themselves don't know enough, or don't care enough to bother promoting professional pool, or having pictures etc. of pro players.

It's up to us to spread the word, I guess. I don't mind doing it.

Of course it doesn't help when commentators still say "Shane Van Bowing" or "Effrum"...Grrrrr!

So why wasn't a pool player doing that AMX commercial? I doubt any of them beyond Lee even has an agent or do any self promotion beyond come on here and ask if someone will stake them in a tournament. Pool players may be the least sophisticated and most short sighted business wise then any sports players. Even pro Wrestlers give them the 3 ball in this department.

 

[easy-e]

Most of these leagues are what there are, recreation, a night out, social and so on. Not you I am sure, but I don't get some of the complaining about leagues by some players; they knew what it was before they joined. I think for some it is being a big fish in a small pond, they like being a star among the weaker players. Reality is though, it may be best to not join a league if you are a really serious player. Not to mention, a lot of those people just want to have fun and are not interested preached to.

A lot of these people can be completely off the wall. One of the last times I was in a bar a guy shows me a cue he said belonged to his grandfather who used to play with Mosconi. It was a Players cue that could not have been more the a few years old. The last thing you want to do is challenge this guys story about his cue. By the way, he said he had turned down $3000.00 for it. There are a lot of nutty people in those bars especially around the pool table.

Maybe I know the same guy! I was golfing with the husband of my wife's college friend while they caught up and did "girly stuff". He was getting ready to hit a shot when he asked me what my other hobbies were. I said "I like to play pool". He stays down on his shot, and says dramatically "My dad beat Willie Mosconi".

He told me that his dad used to be a great unknown player who would beat all the champions. When we got back to his place he pulled his late father's cues out of the attic to show me. I don't know much about older cues (or new ones for that matter), but they looked valuable to me. They both had two shafts and all of the ferrules were ivory.

He told me that he brought one to a bar once and someone offered him $5,000 cash for one of them and he turned him down. I told him that I knew people who could tell him exactly what cues he had and what they were worth. He never did email me the pics of the cues...

 

[inside_english]

Why "WOULD" they know who he is? He doesn't do commercials, he is not a spokesman for any product, he is never a guest on Letterman. Pool tournaments are not on TV and the pool results are not covered in any sports media outlet anywhere in the US, be it newspaper, internet news organizations, or any sports shows on regular TV or cable. So I ask again, why "WOULD" they know who he is? Why would anyone other then the most hardcore fans of the sport know who he is?

You seem to want to use your statement as some kind of put down of the average players who are not fanatics. The fact is, the number of pool players who would have a clue of who Shane Van Boening is, be it by sight or name would be really really small and that is no fault of their own. Except on here of course, a forum that to the average player is as obscure to them as is Shane Van Boening. So what is your point?

Why are you jumping all over the OP?
He made an observation and simply put it out there for feedback.

You need to chill.

 

[macguy]

Maybe I know the same guy! I was golfing with the husband of my wife's college friend while they caught up and did "girly stuff". He was getting ready to hit a shot when he asked me what my other hobbies were. I said "I like to play pool". He stays down on his shot, and says dramatically "My dad beat Willie Mosconi".

He told me that his dad used to be a great unknown player who would beat all the champions. When we got back to his place he pulled his late father's cues out of the attic to show me. I don't know much about older cues (or new ones for that matter), but they looked valuable to me. They both had two shafts and all of the ferrules were ivory.

He told me that he brought one to a bar once and someone offered him $5,000 cash for one of them and he turned him down. I told him that I knew people who could tell him exactly what cues he had and what they were worth. He never did email me the pics of the cues...

You never know though who you are talking to. A waitress listening to us talking said her boyfriend would play us if we wanted to gamble. He turned out to be Cal Jack. Needless to say we were not interested in playing. Another time regarding a cue, I met an old guy at a diner having breakfast and somehow pool came up. He told me he had a cue in the closet he got in NY when he was a cop. From what he was saying I wanted to see it.

Sure enough it is a Balabushka. I told him the truth about the value and was going to help him sell it for a good price ( he looked like he could use the money). Unfortunately while I was away for a few weeks he must have been talking about the cue and got hooked up with John Wright somehow who cheated him out of the cue for like nothing.

 

[inside_english]

So why wasn't a pool player doing that AMX commercial? I doubt any of them beyond Lee even has an agent or do any self promotion beyond come on here and ask if someone will stake them in a tournament. Pool players may be the least sophisticated and most short sighted business wise then any sports players. Even pro Wrestlers give them the 3 ball in this department.

I guess you'd have to ask them...

 

[macguy]

Why are you jumping all over the OP?
He made an observation and simply put it out there for feedback.

You need to chill.

The title of the thread is:
"It was simply amazing!"

I don't find it at all amazing and explained why. It would be more amazing if they knew who he was. In my other post I did apologize for my tone; but if you read this forum on a regular basis there is often a underlying tone for arrogance toward league players. As if they are stupid because they are not pool history scholars or are not fanatics about the game. Again, I don't find it amazing.