It's a copy not a tribute ~ Can we be honest?

[ridewiththewind]

But, if you are a true "custom" cue maker that is sort of up to your customers no? A cue maker can't be seen as having a lack of imagination simply because a customer wants something else.

Tell Thomas Wayne, or Jerry McWhorter, or Jake Hulsey, or Eric Crisp, or several other makers that...just sayin'.

 

[alphadog]

I guess I am getting tired of the term tribute. I am not trying to turn into Jimbo, but maybe I just took a few years to fully comprehend what he was saying long ago. The cues that are being called tributes are just copies. Exactly how do they tribute anything? Can't we just call them a copy?

To make a copy ,as a tribute,is flattery.
To make a copy ,to deceive, is counterfeit.

As the " pickers" often remind you, the value is in the story.
Even counterfeit items have value.

 

[mantis99]

A tribute gives the original maker the credit for the design, while a copy does not. That is the major difference. Calling a cue a tribute also suggests that the cue maker is inspired by a design they see by another maker. I really like some Gina cue designs I have seen, but could never afford one. If I had the equipment and new how to build cues, I would make myself one, and just tell people it was inspired by his designs. However, to answer your question...No a copy is not the same as a tribute in that one gives the credit for originality to the original maker.

 

[galipeau]

In the UK, there's a guy (probably more than one) who builds replica cues. He'll do a Burroughs and Watts snooker cue replica that is very accurate, for example. They sell to players that want a certain design, but can't afford it, or the design is no longer being made... The thing is that it's known to be a copy, and not an original, and is therefore accepted.

I think people have summarized it fairly well here, which doesn't mean that sellers or makers will misuse the terminology!

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Tell Thomas Wayne, or Jerry McWhorter, or Jake Hulsey, or Eric Crisp, or several other makers that...just sayin'.

Actually, you would need to read my very first post in this thread. Thomas Wayne is an active cue maker making a living on the cues he makes, as is the others. Cue makers copy many kinds of art all the time. It is still copying regardless the venue it was originally used in. Wouldn't this also be called a "lack of imagination"?

 

[thekaiserman]

Good one!..

I tried to slip in a post on several "tribute" threads, if they like the cue, why don't they just buy the original?

Ken

Answer:
Because there are not enough around to fill the demand and the prices are very high.

Personally I think a tribute by a good cue maker may be just as good if not better and play better than an original.
Because of new technologies and construction methods, and materials ie. better adhesives, better curing procedures, and more durable finish materials

 

[ridewiththewind]

Actually, you would need to read my very first post in this thread. Thomas Wayne is an active cue maker making a living on the cues he makes, as is the others. Cue makers copy many kinds of art all the time. It is still copying regardless the venue it was originally used in. Wouldn't this also be called a "lack of imagination"?

So what 'art' was he copying when he did the reptile Skeleton cue?



Or the Dem Bones cue?



That's what you call imagination. Kinda renders your argument invalid, doesn't it?

Now if someone recreates either of these cues...and I know that one was in fact copied...it's call design theft, and not a 'tribute', plain and simple.

 

[mia]

Lets say you want a tribute of one of Gus' cues (and lets say you were the first to ask said cue maker), I want one, everyone else wants one, so you think a cue maker should only make one cue for you and no one else? Taking into account it is the customers asking for them.

Sort of a weird way to judge a tribute/copy as wrong or right don't you think?

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is... do it once, you can get away with the word 'tribute'. Do it all the time, you're basically just unoriginal and copying someone else's work.

 

[mia]

But, if you are a true "custom" cue maker that is sort of up to your customers no? A cue maker can't be seen as having a lack of imagination simply because a customer wants something else.

And if you are a true "custom" cuemaker, you can ALWAYS say to the customer "I won't do that. Its not my design."

Cue makers copy many kinds of art all the time. It is still copying regardless the venue it was originally used in. Wouldn't this also be called a "lack of imagination"?

I think the flaw in your argument here is that, while cuemakers copy many different kinds of art, they are taking that art and bringing it to a new medium. Take Joel Hercek's "Eye of Picasso" (or whatever its called)... he didn't duplicate a Picasso on canvas. He took some Picasso-esque elements and incorporated them into a cue design, something Picasso never did.

But saying "I like the look of Ernie's cues. I'll do those all the time." ain't exactly a 'tribute'. Its a lack of creativity and taking the easy way out. Its not a tribute. Its basically copying someone else's designs and profiting off them.

 

[Jaden]

For a copy to be a southwest copy...

Not even close. Barry is certainly capable of designing their own cues, yet he can make a Gus tribute anytime he likes. Can James White make a Mottey Tribute? Sure he does.

Tribute and copy mean 2 different things. Both can have their merit as to a consumer. Both can be executed well or poorly as skill has nothing to do with the definition here. The only difference between the terms is that a copy is meant to be just that, an exact copy where a tribute is meant to be in the style of an original but not a mark for mark copy.

These words actually do have real meaning behind them that is not open for interpretation. You can debate all day long if a cue is pretty or if it has a place in the cue collector world but debating the meaning of words is tilting at windmills.

For a cue in the style of southwest to be a copy, it would have to have the cactus on the pin and the numbering that southwests have.

Otherwise, it is just a cue in the style of a southwest...

Jaden

 

[mia]

For a cue in the style of southwest to be a copy, it would have to have the cactus on the pin and the numbering that southwests have.

Otherwise, it is just a cue in the style of a southwest...

Jaden

Really??

So if I found myself a lathe and banged out an exact duplicate (or better yet, several exact duplicates) of Bill Shick's Gargoyle cue, but I left the ivory tip (with the scrimmed S) off the pin, that wouldn't be copying???

Essentially what you're saying is... replicate any design you want. Its only a copy if you add the cuemaker's logo/sig.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

And if you are a true "custom" cuemaker, you can ALWAYS say to the customer "I won't do that. Its not my design."



I think the flaw in your argument here is that, while cuemakers copy many different kinds of art, they are taking that art and bringing it to a new medium. Take Joel Hercek's "Eye of Picasso" (or whatever its called)... he didn't duplicate a Picasso on canvas. He took some Picasso-esque elements and incorporated them into a cue design, something Picasso never did.

But saying "I like the look of Ernie's cues. I'll do those all the time." ain't exactly a 'tribute'. Its a lack of creativity and taking the easy way out. Its not a tribute. Its basically copying someone else's designs and profiting off them.

It is still portraying Picasso's imagination in a cue, regardless if it is on a canvas or a cue. Do you think Joel is the only one who owns the right to use Picasso's imagination in a cue? Just like the Dem Bones cue, I hope all of you have seen skulls in that nature in shirts, posters, rings, and even Schon cues for years?

But really, what part of the below was so hard to understand??

If a cue maker has a style and is still making a living at it (like say Ernie), then one should not go to the point of "copying" his work.

There is no flaw in my argument, you just need to read it. As I said, it does not matter the medium, you are copying another person's imagination in a cue (like Picasso etc...).

This is your argument... You use Microsoft's logo in a cue without permission. Do you think Microsoft does not have a right to sue you just because you used it in a new medium? lol

 

[classiccues]

Tell Thomas Wayne, or Jerry McWhorter, or Jake Hulsey, or Eric Crisp, or several other makers that...just sayin'.

Two people on your list have made close enough copies of other cues that they cannot be included in your argument. We know TW did (with reason), and Jerry until he got his CNC machine made a living of 6 point hi / lo cues.

JV

 

[Ken_4fun]

Lol

When cue makers in the Phillipines were making copies of Tad and Gina cues years ago they were blasted on AZ and by top cue makers. I guess if they had called them "tributes" it would have been okay? For any of you cue makers or buyers of tributes have you got permission or maybe paid a fee?

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

[/URL]

It took me 1 min to find this pic on the net. So if I do an ebony and ivory cue with this? I would be copying the imagination of Thomas Wayne? No, I would be copying a picture I found on the net in about one minute.

 

[mia]

Two people on your list have made close enough copies of other cues that they cannot be included in your argument. We know TW did (with reason), and Jerry until he got his CNC machine made a living of 6 point hi / lo cues.

JV

And then eventually they said "I can do more than just 4 and 6 pointers. Let me use my imagination."

Many cuemakers never come to the realization. They just continue making "tributes" for the duration of their careers.

 

[mia]

It is still portraying Picasso's imagination in a cue, regardless if it is on a canvas or a cue. Do you think Joel is the only one who owns the right to use Picasso's imagination in a cue? Just like the Dem Bones cue, I hope all of you have seen skulls in that nature in shirts, posters, rings, and even Schon cues for years?

But really, what part of the below was so hard to understand??


There is no flaw in my argument, you just need to read it. As I said, it does not matter the medium, you are copying another person's imagination in a cue (like Picasso etc...).

This is your argument... You use Microsoft's logo in a cue without permission. Do you think Microsoft does not have a right to sue you just because you used it in a new medium? lol

The Microsoft logo is trademarked. Cue designs are not. But does that make it ok for someone to say to themselves "I'm just gonna make nothing but Black Boar designs. Cause hell! It ain't like they're copyrighted/trademarked".

 

[cueaddicts]

Who effing cares, folks !!!!!!!! Many of us are so sick of hearing about this same old crap.

Whatever standards you do have, if any, just make sure they are applied equally across all segments of the cuemaking realm. (i.e. stick maker Bill is good buddies with the high-rollers Jim, Tom, Barry and Jay, so when he knocks off an iconic Slambooski cue stick, let him suffer the exact same criticisms as Billy-Jack down in the boonies, who has more coon hounds than he has friends). That's the part of this whole equation that has always been B.S.....and frankly the double-standard based on who you know or are friends with is never addressed.

Carry on......:grin-devilish:

 

[know it all]

Tribute

I guess I am getting tired of the term tribute. I am not trying to turn into Jimbo, but maybe I just took a few years to fully comprehend what he was saying long ago. The cues that are being called tributes are just copies. Exactly how do they tribute anything? Can't we just call them a copy?

Ken we can call it a way of copies,remakes,and money making ways to make people think of what they may get. A real tribute comes from the origanal cue maker if alive,or by a family member in a numbered quantity like 01 to 25,and no more made.Example,tads son,gus's son,burton spains EOL,that was the end of line series,danny janes joss cues son, and so on.There are people that try to do good in this way. Original is the best way.Buy orignal,sell,trade ,collect. No other way,when the supply runs out ,they become collectable. just my opinion. Like right now on ebay,you'll find cues made for chi town billiards,only 10 or 12 made.Samsara made them,and try to buy one just like it from samsara,and they are 1200 to 1000. They are starting off at 799. Rich aka the skunk.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

The Microsoft logo is trademarked. Cue designs are not. But does that make it ok for someone to say to themselves "I'm just gonna make nothing but Black Boar designs. Cause hell! It ain't like they're copyrighted/trademarked".

The whole point just flew right over your head. Just because something is on a different medium does not mean said cue makers used imagination to make the cue (regardless of any trademarks). Most could not even get a trademark as they took the imagination from another medium.

For all we know BB could have got designs from women knitting flowers into a piece of clothing. Just because you put said flowers into a cue does not make it imaginative. It just made it taking flowers I copied and putting them in my cues. And no, I have no idea where their designs come from, but certainly a high chance of coming from something else, no?

I have seen no one make an exact copy of Thomas Wayne's cues above, but being he makes a living doing it, it would be wrong to copy his cue. However if I took a picture of the bones I posted and put them in an ebony and ivory cue does not make it a copy of Thomas Wayne's work even though they do look similar? No, I just wanted an ebony and ivory cue with alligator bones. And no, I have no intention of ever having a cue made using bones on an ebony and ivory cue....