ivory joint?

tattoo

tattoo

Tatuaje in the house🤘🏻
Silver Member
i recently had a cue made with an 5 16/14 ivory joint....i had never played with a cue with one for more than a rack or two...how long should i play with a cue before i get use to it...i have played with it for about 20 hours and just cant get use to the hit...everything else on the cue is normally what i play with except the joint...if i could descibe it...it just fills really springy...i am having problems with controling the cue ball and just a really lack of confidence...i think i might just put it up for trade for something that i am "use to"..what do you think? thanks mickey carroll
 
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i play with a ss 5 16/14 or 5 16/18 pin or a wood to wood sneaky pete 3 8/10
 
tattoo said:
i recently had a cue made with an 5 16/14 ivory joint....i had never played with a cue with one for more than a rack or two...how long should i play with a cue before i get use to it...i have played with it for about 20 hours and just cant get use to the hit...everything else on the cue is normally what i play with except the joint...if i could descibe it...it just fills really springy...i am having problems with controling the cue ball and just a really lack of confidence...i think i might just put it up for trade for something that i am "use to"..what do you think? thanks mickey carroll
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I have 2 cues with ivory joints, 1 is 5/16x14 piloted ivory and the other is 5/16x14 flat faced ivory. The piloted ivory jointed cue plays different than the flat faced ivory jointed cue. It's like you described, a little more lively or springy than the flat faced jointed cue. I really like the hit of the piloted ivory joint the best as far as getting more action on the cue ball. It's definitely a different feel from a steel jointed cue for sure.

James
 
the cue came with morri tips...i play with triangle tips so i had one put on still didnt help with the spring fill...and if it helps it is piloted joint not flat face...i had a few people hit with it to see if it was just me and they all descibed it as has having a lot of jump or spring to the fill...i am just glad i had joint put on a 700 dollar cue and not the showman that i have in the quote stages....thanks mickey carroll
 
lively?

If the hit can be described as 'lively' then I am guessing it has more to do with the shaft/ferrule than the joint material. I prefer a lively hit so who made the cue (pm me if you prefer)?
 
Sounds like you may have a collection starting!

I have never been able to get used to the cues I had with ivory joints (all flat faced, to wood).

That's why they make Almond Joy and Mounds...
 
i use an ivory jointed cue with a 3/8-10 pin. i've only tried 1 ivory jointed cue with a 5-16/14 joint and i didn't like it at all
 
I have only played with one solid ivory jointed cue that I liked & it was a SW with their big pin. It had that extra "spring" to it that cancelled out the usual extreme stiff feel & it felt great to me. It was a happy medium.

When I do ivory joints, I sleeve the ivory over melamine so it still plays consistent with my other cues but has the look of an ivory joint. You think the ivory is springy? You should try a solid antler joint!!! It's almost hard to play with. But then again, to each their own. Everybody likes something a little different. Lots of people think the playability of a cue is all in the tip & shaft, but it's not true. Any component forward of the grip hand has the potential to significantly change the feel & playability of a cue.
 
tattoo said:
i recently had a cue made with an 5 16/14 ivory joint....i had never played with a cue with one for more than a rack or two...how long should i play with a cue before i get use to it...i have played with it for about 20 hours and just cant get use to the hit...everything else on the cue is normally what i play with except the joint...if i could descibe it...it just fills really springy...i am having problems with controling the cue ball and just a really lack of confidence...i think i might just put it up for trade for something that i am "use to"..what do you think? thanks mickey carroll
Click to expand...


Man, I hate to rain on any body's parade about this ivory joint mythos (and I play with an ivory joint), but didn't the science guys prove a long time ago that the CB is long gone before the joint can have any affect?

I know back on RSB we talked about the experiment John McChesney (RIP, Mr Tx Express) did at one of his events where he wrapped a bunch of cues up in such a way that no one could tell what kind of a joint they had and, bottom line, no one (pros included), could accurately tell what kind of joint any given cue had.

#####
John McChesney Mar 9 2004, 3:42 pm

Hi Group,
Indeed, we did a test of joints about 15 years ago. Lori John Jones and
Jim Rempe were in Dallas for an exhibition and we had about 50 cues with
butcher paper and masking tape covering the butts, so as to conceal the
inlayes, joints and make of cue. We then had people test the cues, etc.
and hardly anyone could tell whether they were playing with a wood to
wood, piloted steel, flat faced steel, mycarta or ivory joint. In fact,
Jim Rempe swore he was playing with a Meucci .. but we removed the paper
to find it was a piloted steel joint/Scruggs.
Other than the sound a cue makes when it hits the cueball .. I think cue
"hits" are more determined by 1) tip 2) shaft taper and wood density as
the first criteria .. and the joint primarially is just a wat to connect
2 sections together .. I prefer a wood to wood joint with a radial pin
.. however a 3/8 x 10 would suffice just as well, I think.
The conclusion of the test(s) were that the vast majority had no idea
what they were playing with and were really surprised when told .. and
by the way .. both Lori John and Jim were fooled by similar piloted
steel joints as they both thought they were Meucci ( Implex .. fancy Bob
Meucci word for plastic ). This went on for 2 full days and hundreds of
individuals participated .. certainly opened lots of people's eyes.
Most people ended up liking wood to wood style cues ... 12.8 - 13.2mm
shafts . about 6" taper ( stiff ) .. phenolic joint bands .. old yellow
micarta, aiges, some sort of hard phenolic ferrules and hard tips.
I.E., ( not in any order ) McDermotts, Vikings, Scruggs, Hueblers,
Motteys, Southwest, Benson, Libras and a fee Petes built locally.

John McChesney
Texas Express
#####

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Man, I hate to rain on any body's parade about this ivory joint mythos (and I play with an ivory joint), but didn't the science guys prove a long time ago that the CB is long gone before the joint can have any affect?

I know back on RSB we talked about the experiment John McChesney (RIP, Mr Tx Express) did at one of his events where he wrapped a bunch of cues up in such a way that no one could tell what kind of a joint they had and, bottom line, no one (pros included), could accurately tell what kind of joint any given cue had.

#####
John McChesney Mar 9 2004, 3:42 pm

Hi Group,
Indeed, we did a test of joints about 15 years ago. Lori John Jones and
Jim Rempe were in Dallas for an exhibition and we had about 50 cues with
butcher paper and masking tape covering the butts, so as to conceal the
inlayes, joints and make of cue. We then had people test the cues, etc.
and hardly anyone could tell whether they were playing with a wood to
wood, piloted steel, flat faced steel, mycarta or ivory joint. In fact,
Jim Rempe swore he was playing with a Meucci .. but we removed the paper
to find it was a piloted steel joint/Scruggs.
Other than the sound a cue makes when it hits the cueball .. I think cue
"hits" are more determined by 1) tip 2) shaft taper and wood density as
the first criteria .. and the joint primarially is just a wat to connect
2 sections together .. I prefer a wood to wood joint with a radial pin
.. however a 3/8 x 10 would suffice just as well, I think.
The conclusion of the test(s) were that the vast majority had no idea
what they were playing with and were really surprised when told .. and
by the way .. both Lori John and Jim were fooled by similar piloted
steel joints as they both thought they were Meucci ( Implex .. fancy Bob
Meucci word for plastic ). This went on for 2 full days and hundreds of
individuals participated .. certainly opened lots of people's eyes.
Most people ended up liking wood to wood style cues ... 12.8 - 13.2mm
shafts . about 6" taper ( stiff ) .. phenolic joint bands .. old yellow
micarta, aiges, some sort of hard phenolic ferrules and hard tips.
I.E., ( not in any order ) McDermotts, Vikings, Scruggs, Hueblers,
Motteys, Southwest, Benson, Libras and a fee Petes built locally.

John McChesney
Texas Express
#####

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...
so what your saying if you take 2 cues that are exactly the same minus the joint that you( by you i mean the player) cant tell the diffrence in hit? i find that really hard to belive...but i am not a pro or someone who has been playing pool for 40 years..but i would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people who would argue with this statement...but that is just me...thanks for all the input..mickey carroll ps i am pretty sure i can tell the diffrence between angus beef and regular sirlon....but maybe not the diffrence in 1 year aged and 5 year aged angus
 
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tattoo said:
so what your saying if you take 2 cues that are exactly the same minus the joint that you cant tell the diffrence in hit? i find that really hard to belive...but i am not a pro or someone who has been playing pool for 40 years..but i would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people who would argue with this statement...but that is just me...thanks for all the input..mickey carroll ps i am pretty sure i can tell the diffrence between angus beef and regular sirlon....but maybe not the diffrence in 1 year aged and 5 year aged angus
Click to expand...


"I" didn't say "I" could do or tell anything. I was just relating what JM found out when he had Rempe (and a few others) try and tell what kind of cue/joint they were shooting with in a blind taste test.

Also, I believe the science has shown (and I will be the first to say I'm not a science guy) that the CB is long gone from the cue tip before the impact wave has traveled down the cue, and back up to the cue tip, and can do anything to effect the CB.

Basically, what I'm saying is: that from all I've read, the whole thing about what an ivory joint will or won't do to the CB is a myth. That's not to say it won't sound (wave) different, or give you different feedback in your hands -- it's just to say that it ain't gonna change how it actually plays.

Lou Figueroa
can tell the difference
between a good Cabernet
and a bad one
 
lfigueroa said:
Basically, what I'm saying is: that from all I've read, the whole thing about what an ivory joint will or won't do to the CB is a myth. That's not to say it won't sound (wave) different, or give you different feedback in your hands -- it's just to say that it ain't gonna change how it actually plays.
Click to expand...


So does this mean I could build a styrofoam butt, attach a Predator shaft & the cue will play as great as any cue with a Predator shaft? I mean, the impact is so short that nothing in the back of the cue matters, right? I think we all know better. We need more thorough & unbiased science before people try make irrefutable claims. I understand you never made the claim, and i'm not picking at you. I'm just saying it's kinda rediculous & makes no sense to me. Even Predator, arguably the industry leader in R&D, invests in developing the science behind a good butt. If it were in vain, i'm pretty sure they'd know it & wouldn't waste the resources on it.
 
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qbilder said:
I play with a heck of a lot of cues. I know exactly what kind of difference a joint can make on a cue. I think more "science" needs to be applied & more thoroughly applied before anybody can begin making definitive claims based on science. Idiot logic tells me that if the feel of the hit or sound of the hit changes with the joint, then the harmonics of the cue are as well altered. The harmonics are the direct side effect of the way the cue vibrates, flexes, etc. If it changes, then so does the way the cueball rebounds from the tip. It's not rocket science but it's not 8th grade physics, either. It is, however, evident enough we as players can tell that there certainly is a difference. My point is that nobody has applied an in depth, thorough scientific investigation. High speed video isn't good enough because it's still left to human interpretation & the capability of the equipment. Anybody can do an experiment to prove their point but it's biased. What i'd like to see is a totally unbiased, totally thorough investigation of a cue's components & how each affects the nanosecond of impact time.

Without convincing & unquestionable proof, i'll never bite off on the claims that nothing in the back end of the cue effects playability. I seriously wish it were true because then I wouldn't have to be so picky about my material choices. But it's not true. Every accomplished & sought after cuemaker knows it. Seriously, with the claims being made, I could build a styrofoam butt & attach a Predator shaft & the cue will play like God built it. We all know better. My point is that we need better science.
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thanks for the reply...i agree with what your saying...it is nice to have diffent opinons and here what people have to say on the subject...and like i said earlier i can tell the diffrence the "spring" is there...on this cue that is...
 
ps i just noticed i pasted 500 post....wish they were all this on a topic this good..:grin-square: mickey carroll
 
Lou...I'm in the same camp as you. The "feel" of the "hit" of a cue is so subjective that not even pros can really tell a difference (as McChesney's test proved). Now, most people can tell whether they "like" or "dislike" the way a particular cue plays (and two people may feel drastrically different about the exact same cue setup...same tip, taper and joint)...but as was mentioned you can drastically change that simply by changing the tip, the shaft taper, and/or the joint. That's why it's impossible to come on here asking how a cue hits, or declaring that "this cue hits a ton!" LMAO It's also true that the CB is gone 1/1000th of a second after contact with the tip...far too quick to be able to tell, scientifically, how one thing 'plays' over another...which of course, is why a real Player can pick up any cue and run out with it...as long as it has a decent tip.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
"I" didn't say "I" could do or tell anything. I was just relating what JM found out when he had Rempe (and a few others) try and tell what kind of cue/joint they were shooting with in a blind taste test.

Also, I believe the science has shown (and I will be the first to say I'm not a science guy) that the CB is long gone from the cue tip before the impact wave has traveled down the cue, and back up to the cue tip, and can do anything to effect the CB.

Basically, what I'm saying is: that from all I've read, the whole thing about what an ivory joint will or won't do to the CB is a myth. That's not to say it won't sound (wave) different, or give you different feedback in your hands -- it's just to say that it ain't gonna change how it actually plays.

Lou Figueroa
can tell the difference
between a good Cabernet
and a bad one
Click to expand...
 
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