Ivory's Future In Pool Cues

mcsock said:
Not just that, a lot of people feel it is wrong to kill "Endangered Species" for their ivory. I feel people holding pre-ban ivory items should be able to use what they have in anyway they wish. But they better be able to document it is pre-ban, else face massive fines, etc.
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Yea except, how can you prove that the ivory pendant that your grandmothers grandmother passed down through your family is pre ban ivory? If you can't, then not only will it be taken away even though it's lawfully your property, but you can be fined just for owning it.

It's hard to know to keep some kind of proof when you won't know that you'll need it for another 125 years.

There's no way to know if a piece of ivory is pre ban or not.


It won't be long until we are guilty until proven innocent.


Royce
 
RBC said:
Yea except, how can you prove that the ivory pendant that your grandmothers grandmother passed down through your family is pre ban ivory? If you can't, then not only will it be taken away even though it's lawfully your property, but you can be fined just for owning it.

It's hard to know to keep some kind of proof when you won't know that you'll need it for another 125 years.

There's no way to know if a piece of ivory is pre ban or not.


It won't be long until we are guilty until proven innocent.


Royce
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I think the last line has always been the case unless your wealthy of course.. I got picked up with a buddy when we were 17 in 1969. We had a fairly large quantity illegal greens. The sergeant at the booking desk asked his name and was quick to follow that up with is your Dad so & so? Well after another 15 minutes the sergeant came back from making a phone call or two we walked out the door and that was that. I learned that day what and who money could influence.
 
Quesports said:
I think the last line has always been the case unless your wealthy of course.. I got picked up with a buddy when we were 17 in 1969. We had a fairly large quantity illegal greens. The sergeant at the booking desk asked his name and was quick to follow that up with is your Dad so & so? Well after another 15 minutes the sergeant came back from making a phone call or two we walked out the door and that was that. I learned that day what and who money could influence.
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Good story!

I think you're absolutely right in that there will always be favors to those with influence. I think it's just human nature.

But, in that scenario, it was not the law that was different for you and your friend. It was the enforcement.

What seems to be happening is that the laws are changing so that everyone will be breaking them. At that time big brother gets to choose, or punish, who to enforce the law against. Instead of the other way around.


Good Story!


Royce
 
RBC said:
Yea except, how can you prove that the ivory pendant that your grandmothers grandmother passed down through your family is pre ban ivory? If you can't, then not only will it be taken away even though it's lawfully your property, but you can be fined just for owning it.

It's hard to know to keep some kind of proof when you won't know that you'll need it for another 125 years.

There's no way to know if a piece of ivory is pre ban or not.


It won't be long until we are guilty until proven innocent.


Royce
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Royce, you get it.

Beyond just selling or trading, if you own anything with ivory and don't have documentation showing that it was pre-ban (January 18, 1990), either by bill of sale or an affidavit of origin, you will be in conflict of the proposed regulation.

Think about. For most, that changes what will get shown on ebay, craigslist or AZ classified sales. That will change significantly what is displayed, sold or traded at such events as the SBE or ICCS.

This will be a game changer.
 
That is true Scott and Mitch don't get caught hype in the Hollywood hype that elephants are in danger. In country's that allow legal hunting which provides income to combat poaching elephants are taking over areas. Trust me I have friends there and have been and seen it for myself.
Country's that don't allow hunting have no income base to provide for them in the form of setting aside land and game wardens. It is a sad FACT that in today's world if something has no value it is not long for this world. Devalue anything and it simply goes away.

This same talk has been going around the custom knife world for years. The United States is also in no way the major consumer of ivory. These laws will have little to no effect on the world wide consumption of ivory. Just my humble opinion.
 
As a cue maker I am frustrated by this. Say what you want, there is no substitute for ivory, either from a looks or playability view. As far as 'legal pre-ban ivory', exactly how is someone able to determine the ivory I use for joints or ferrules or whatever IS 'legal'? What is to distinguish it from any other ivory? It's not as if there are serial numbers on it.
This ban is supposedly to protect the elephants. Most poached ivory goes to China where there is a huge market for it. Very little, if any, makes it to the U.S. so how does limiting what we do here help save elephants?
On mammoth ivory:
I have used it for joints, ferrules, inlays. Beautiful. Plays great. But doesn't have the same look as regular ivory. Darker, almond colored, some brown, gray, even red streaks. It is not light, almost white as is regular ivory.
Say what you want, ivory will always be a major factor in the value and collectible factor in referring to pool cues.
 
Politics scmolitics

HQueen said:
As a cue maker I am frustrated by this. Say what you want, there is no substitute for ivory, either from a looks or playability view. As far as 'legal pre-ban ivory', exactly how is someone able to determine the ivory I use for joints or ferrules or whatever IS 'legal'? What is to distinguish it from any other ivory? It's not as if there are serial numbers on it.
This ban is supposedly to protect the elephants. Most poached ivory goes to China where there is a huge market for it. Very little, if any, makes it to the U.S. so how does limiting what we do here help save elephants?
On mammoth ivory:
I have used it for joints, ferrules, inlays. Beautiful. Plays great. But doesn't have the same look as regular ivory. Darker, almond colored, some brown, gray, even red streaks. It is not light, almost white as is regular ivory.
Say what you want, ivory will always be a major factor in the value and collectible factor in referring to pool cues.
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This is purely a political issue. I thank TW for making me aware of this. I was very unfamiliar with reality, all I saw previously was my hate for poachers. There is a bigger story and if you care to understand read what TW and a wrap others have stated. I don't always reccomend their opinions but on this one I do. THx
 
A little more than 10 years, I bought my first ivory joint cue after playing for more than 40 years with 5/16x14 piloted steel cue joints. I had heard that ivory was different but whenever I tried an ivory joint cue that someone else had, I wasn't impressed with how the cue played. Just seemed to me that my cues hit more firm and I preferred that type of hit........a nice forward balanced cue with a firm, solid shaft and medium tip......even the brand tip wasn't important as I'd switch every couple of years.......back at that time I only owned 3 cues, all steel joints.

Then I bumped into a buddy I hadn't seen in probably 5-6 years. He walked into the pool hall unexpectedly and he had his cue case. Much to my amazement, he pulls out a TAD cue and it's a darling......fancy butt sleeve, gorgeous veneers, linen wrap and ivory features (joint & ferrules). He previously played with another TAD but it was a piloted steel joint.

So naturally I'm curious as all heck about the cue and he plays this game giving me short, partial answers so I have to keep asking questions to get more details. Finally I just say let me see the GD cue and it felt like a feather. I ask what weight and he says 18.5 ozs. and it felt lighter than that to me......I'd have guessed 17 ozs but not a whole lot more. My main playing cue was 19.75 ozs. and I knew he used to also play with a cue in the mid- 19 oz. range ....I didn't recall exactly what......so I asked why so light?

All he says is try it......I toss some balls on the table .....all scattered close on a 1/2 table......probably 7-8 balls.....and as I proceed to pocket these shots that were all relatively easy, at least when I started out they were with me using ball in hand, every shot turned into an easy shot. I moved the cue ball precisely where I wanted it and I could feel the difference when I moved the cue ball a greater distance for position. It felt different and I kind of chuckled saying that this felt so nice......what a really nice hitting cue. So now I throw all 15 balls on the table and I proceed to play the table like it was 14.1 and I pick my break ball with 6 balls left on the table. It was only inches off the spot in ideal position.

Well, I proceed to run all 14 balls using a variety of shots because position wasn't ideal on every shot. I might play the same object ball cut shot I had in mind to the same pocket but since sometimes my shape wasn't the angle I needed and I had to use the rails to come around for the next shot position to attain the right angle on the next object ball. I'm telling you it felt like I had a wand and I was drawing lines for the path of the cue ball to follow and it did virtually on every shot. Naturally, I can't stop now and I rack, make the break shot and run 6 more balls before missing. I was head over heels impressed with this cue and I had played with his piloted steel joint TAD before he switched cues.

Anyway, we start to play and the cue feels like I'm using a 2x4......my cue....and the sound was totally different. I loved the way the TAD cue ivory ferrules and ivory joint combo played and sounded. My cue just didn't give me the feel or feedback the other cue did when I hit a hard follow shot versus a medium stroke or a stop shot or stun shot....my cue just felt entirely different......and cue ball speed control just seemed harder. I wanted to play with his cue that night and I knew right then and there I was going to get an ivory joint cue. That night my best run using my cue was 12 balls........and I couldn't keep my mind off the way that TAD cue felt.

I've gone on record repeatedly....not that it matters to most readers.......go try an ivory joint cue....preferably a flat version with big pin if you can; whatever weight cue you play with, try to find an ivory joint cue that's lighter than what you currently play. I've actually gone down 1.5 ozs from where I previously played and the lighter cue makes the difference in feel more discernible to your finger pads....the vibe of the cue comes across much better tahn when the cue is mid 19 ozs or heavier......that's been my experience.

I've hung onto my Palmer and Runde Schon for sentimental reasons but these cues don't see any play. The rest are ivory joints and that's all I'll own from now on.....try a cue before you buy but please at least consider my advice.......I learned by starting out too heavy and should have just copied my buddy's TAD weight which I eventually did with all my cues.

Matt B.
 
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Balabushka_Man said:
I've been reading a lot of stuff on the proposed new laws on "pre ban ivory" eventually also being banned. From what I've read it would not allow sales across state lines, but would allow sales within the state in which you live. I could be wrong there as I am no expert in that interpretation by any means. I don't know what to think anymore seeing it will effect so many hobbies and ownership of collector items such as pool cues, gun collectors, musical instruments, chess sets, antique collectors, and the like. IMHO I would think that value eventually will go up substantially cause of it becoming more and more rare in new production and items no longer being built with the pre ban ivory, in particular our hobby being pool cues. I also feel that with so much at stake with folks valuable hobby collections that there will be some exceptions to these new bills and newer regulations. Being that ivory has always been the old school fancy mainstay for inlays, butt caps, ferrules, and the like I wonder what the future will bring ?
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I feel for people who have big investments in their cues, common sense would tell us that collectors would be given some special considerations but who knows .
Things stopped making sense to me long ago.
Right now I would say it's about a 50 /50 gamble, people may either find it difficult to get their money back or it could make the values even higher because of rarity.
My biggest concern would be the fact that they confiscated all that ivory from the gunmakers after the ban.
They may use that as an example and assume it was in all venues using the material.
I don't know , it may have been.
Good luck whatever happens.
I have collected billiard books for about 30 years and now they reprint all the rare books on demand and have just devastated the market.
Even things that I know are under Copyright Law, they market with impunity , maybe the next resurgence of pool will bring them back up , I doubt I will be around long enough to see it though.
I am like you , I'm not selling for 10 cents on the dollar, nor do I think it will get that bad.
I'll, let the grand kids have them.
 
The one thing you can always count on is the gun lobby.......there will always be our love affair with guns and the GOP will make sure that the ivory which adorns our favorite weapons is always protected against any form of confiscation or infringement on any purchase or right to own.......and if ivory will be allowed for guns, it will grandfather in other curios and artifacts like jewelry, musical items, pool cues, etc.

So it's only a matter of time before the ivory ban gets modified to some degree but in the meantime, no one is going to confiscate your pool cues because of the ivory content unless you try to get them through US Customs without proper documentation. Meanwhile, cue-makers continue to use it, buyers continue to order cues with ivory and some people will gripe & moan that this is contributing to the needless slaughter of elephants.........which is admittedly deplorable.....but my new pool cue orders, or the cue built 5 years that has ivory in it, does not foster nor contribute to the ivory poaching problem.

When people make that leap of faith and argue that pool cues are a contributing factor, maybe if the cues are made in China or somewhere else outside the USA. it's a distance that they fall woefully short. And I recognize there's bound to be some cue-makers, hopefully a diminutive number, that will violate the ivory ban. But I'm still all ears awaiting some indictment of a noteworthy US cue-maker name and have yet to learn of any.......certainly not the cue-makers I'm interested in owning. So when you make that leap, sadly it's a bridge too far and you wind up landing flat on your face........Ouch.

Matt B.
 
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Everyone keeps saying "Proper documentation"
I can show where and when I legally bought the ivory I have in stock right now. But how does any document correspond to any particular piece of ivory on any cue? How can you look at a cue with an ivory handle and points and say "Yes, this "documented ivory" on this cue is legal because this piece of paper says so. Anyone?
 
HQueen said:
Everyone keeps saying "Proper documentation"
I can show where and when I legally bought the ivory I have in stock right now. But how does any document correspond to any particular piece of ivory on any cue? How can you look at a cue with an ivory handle and points and say "Yes, this "documented ivory" on this cue is legal because this piece of paper says so. Anyone?
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I think that could be accomplished by licensing ivory craftspeople and instituting a system of recording the weight, description, and disposition of any ivory. That should allow for craftspeople to issue, or maybe apply for, a certificate for the item in which the ivory was placed. This could all be input online so that regulators have a central repository. A program like this would of course increase costs, but that's just the reality of where we've gotten ourselves with ivory. Cuemakers who can't afford it will need to get creative with other materials. Notable cuemakers like Southwest don't use ivory, so I doubt it's a make-or-break proposition.
 
Btw, Southwest does use ivory.
The basis of your post doesn't make sense. Weight, description, dispensation? If I buy a piece of ivory to use as a joint, I then machine it to size, bore, tap, epoxy onto cue, turn it down to final size then it no longer resembles what I bought originally and doesn't weigh anywhere near the same.
So you think applying for a certificate is the way to go? Another word for certificate is "tax".
 
HQueen said:
Btw, Southwest does use ivory.
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I spoke with them several years ago about having a cue made and remember them saying they didn't do ivory. Maybe they changed that policy, or maybe I misremember.

dispensation
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That was disposition - what was done with the newly crafted piece of ivory.

If I buy a piece of ivory to use as a joint, I then machine it to size, bore, tap, epoxy onto cue, turn it down to final size then it no longer resembles what I bought originally and doesn't weigh anywhere near the same.
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I was talking about weighing and recording the newly crafted piece (e.g. the joint sleeve). I guess with a system like this, you'd need to cross-reference the larger piece that the joint sleeve came from and record that larger piece's remaining weight.

I don't lay this out as an exact suggestion, but as a rough example of the kind of system regulatory authorities would need so they can confidently distinguish between legal and illegal ivory. Currently, they have no way to know whether that joint sleeve is legal.

So you think applying for a certificate is the way to go? Another word for certificate is "tax".
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From a cue owner's perspective, legally recognized documentation is protection from confiscation and legal penalties.

I'm not trying to give anybody grief. It's just that, as the situation current is, I'm not sure what else could be done to keep legal ivory legal.
 
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It is my opinion we do not need more governmental control. They have effectively stopped ivory from being imported, most goes to China. It has been this way for years. How is banning ivory that has been in the US for 50+ years going to stop poachers from killing elephants? No one has even addressed the issues of how this ban will affect small businesses. A lot of people will lose a large part of their business, I'm not just speaking of cuemakers.
The "it weighs this now but it will weigh this when it gets cuts to final size" method will not work. That is folly. What needs to happen is for elected officials to stop with the bullshit and do things they were elected to do. Who in this country voted one of these morons into office on the premise they were going to save the elephants? Get real. Quit wasting taxpayer money and do something that helps the American people.
 
HQueen said:
They have effectively stopped ivory from being imported, most goes to China. It has been this way for years.
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Not according to this article.

I don't want to see owners of legal ivory be forced to eat a loss, and I'm always wary of the "extreme circumstances require extreme measures" argument. Clearly, though, some measure of accountability for legal ivory, as well as protection for its owners, is in order. Hopefully somebody can come up with a solution that isn't as onerous as mine.
 
I read the article, I'm sure there is a lot of truth there but not convinced of everything that was stated. I don't break the laws when it comes to ivory. What I use is legal pre-ban ivory. I don't want to suffer and be penalized for something others do. From what I have read there is a large supply of legal ivory in this country. Typical government----we don't have the funding we need to stop trafficking do we will just punish the innocent and guilty at the same time.

I'd much rather see funding go to stop hard drugs and possible WMD's from being illegally brought in. This would save human lives.

Rather than waiting and trying to catch criminals bringing ivory into the U.S., why not spend resources and send agents to Africa and elsewhere to literally police the elephants to try to prevent poaching? A lot could be solved by tagging the animals to know their locations. There is no perfect solution but IMO this bears looking into.
 
Ivory from the wolly mammoth is gathered in siberia and used in pool cues. Obviously it is not an endangered species any longer. It is nearly identical to elephant ivory and only an expert can tell the difference. My cue, everything white, is mammoth ivory. It is at least 25,000 yrs. old and beautiful with the soft feel and traditional grain you would expect to see. Google this info.
 
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