JA vs MD push out after the break match.

[CJ Wiley]

Drama, suspense, and rivalry is the the "sizzle," the game is the "steak".

I just want to make sure I understand. In the era where everyone's attention span is getting shorter and shorter, you think it might make better TELEVISION if there is a mandatory push out after each break?

I think it's better to build suspense, and this isn't the "magic bullet". The magic bullet is developing characters and personalities in the game, and then the suspense, drama and rivalry.

Relying on the game to "be the whole show," is not the way to go about it in my opinion. Take a look at poker, football, baseball, etc., they are not relying on the game for 100% of the entertainment, it's more like 30%. The other 70% is about the players, the statistics, the cheerleaders, the rivalrys, other stories involving the players or teams.

Asking the game of pool to be the complete entertainment source is a big mistake and it's being proven over and over not to work. They're trying to create rivalries, and that's the right strategy, just isn't coming off as "real". There are real rivalries, but we all know which ones are genuine and which ones aren't.

So no, to answer your question, it's not about "rolling out after the break" as far as a "earth shattering rule change"......it just gives a chance to add suspense and drama into the game in a calculated way. Breaking and running out doesn't do that, and even if both players did it every time it wouldn't help, it would actually hurt what's already broken.

Drama, Suspense, and Rivalry is the the "Sizzle," the Game is the "Steak". www.cjwiley.com

 

[Luxury]

Okay. I LOVE the idea of building real characters and rivalries. CJ, you are a legend of the game. I have bought your vids and learned a lot. Thank you. I look forward to your project. I predict the backers won't like the idea of mandatory push after the break is all I'm sayin'.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I used a panel of people that don't play pool to understand these things

Okay. I LOVE the idea of building real characters and rivalries. CJ, you are a legend of the game. I have bought your vids and learned a lot. Thank you. I look forward to your project. I predict the backers won't like the idea of mandatory push after the break is all I'm sayin'.

I'm not trying to change to that for TV, it's just a personal preference to see what I would like to see. For me, the whole battle for the first shot is all that's interesting. Once the player wins that and gets "in line" to run out I'll go to the kitchen and make a sandwich.

What I like and what belongs on TV is not necessarily the same. I used a panel of people that don't play pool to understand these things and through a "Think Tank"

of 1000 people is where we started to develop 'The Game is the Teacher' project and the blueprint we're using for our future TV Events.

The Think Tank communicated they didn't care about watching the Game UNLESS we developed the player personalities and characters FIRST. We believe they are exactly right, because they represent the "masses" (general public), and specifically that's our target demographic.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Pool will never be popular on TV again. 9ball/10ball is confusing enough to the general public due to the Push Shot. Hell a massive chunk of the pool playing world (league players , APA) have no idea what a push is let alone a good one and they play pool at least once a week, competitively. Now you want to throw a mandatory push in there?

Cmon??? Wasnt Texas Express created for this very same reason?

 

[CJ Wiley]

it would be difficult to even get the balls in motion without the players.

Pool will never be popular on TV again. 9ball/10ball is confusing enough to the general public due to the Push Shot. Hell a massive chunk of the pool playing world (league players , APA) have no idea what a push is let alone a good one and they play pool at least once a week, competitively. Now you want to throw a mandatory push in there?

Cmon??? Wasnt Texas Express created for this very same reason?

No one cares what rules they play....it's all about the personalities, if Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan

played a pool match with "Push Out Rules" it would get the highest ratings of all time.

It's all about character building, no one cares about games without people, and this includes baseball, basketball, football, tennis, golf, etc. It's proven - without people these games wouldn't even exist. it would be difficult to even get the balls in motion without the players. :groucho:

 

[Icon of Sin]

No one cares what rules they play....it's all about the personalities, if Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan

played a pool match with "Push Out Rules" it would get the highest ratings of all time.

It's all about character building, no one cares about games without people, and this includes baseball, basketball, football, tennis, golf, etc. It's proven - without people these games wouldn't even exist. it would be difficult to even get the balls in motion without the players. :groucho:

Wall of text incoming, I apologize in advanced...

You have a good point... but the world tunes in to watch Tiger and Michael do pretty much anything because they were the top players of a sport that has already been popular for decades (centuries for golf).

If you walk up to a random on the street and ask them to name a professional pool player the best they can do is "that black widow lady"... and it is usually followed up with "man is she hot" or something along those lines.

They dont know how good she actually plays or how good she plays compared to other players. 9out of 10 wouldnt be able to name a male player at all.

In order to get these personalities out there you will have to make it interesting for the public. IMO that is what the IPT did right. They played 8ball. The world knows 8ball. Drunks know 8ball. Versus more then likely picked up the IPT broadcast for the sole fact that it was 8ball and Trudeau was able to sell that to them. And still even though Tudeau was able to sell it to TV stations (for three tournaments even) the world still did not latch on to it).

When you go to a TV station and tell them about mandorty push 9ball/10ball the execs wont understand what the hell you are talking about, let alone their audience.

Sure the world ultimately wants to see personalities, but you have to get them out there first and the majority of the world simply cares about pool just enough to but a dollar into a random pool table and a bar and smash balls around with their friend.

I'm telling you, if for some crazy reason, mandatory push does get on TV and you get someone with the break caliber of Archer, Bustamante, SVB *insert awesome hard breaker here* and they crack the rack and make two balls and have an easy shot on the one, the world will change the station when they push instead of fire at that one ball because they will not understand... no matter how many times the rules and gone over prior the broadcast.

Wasnt to much of a wall of text...

 

[SakuJack]

Nif Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan

Woods and Jordan aren't popular because of their personalities, though. They're popular because of how good they are/were at their respective sports.

Characters go a long way in improving a sport/game's popularity, but it has to be interesting/marketable on its own first. Without that, you can have all the characters in the world and people still won't care.

Pool needs to speed up to go over well with the public, in my opinion, not slow down.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Woods and Jordan aren't popular because of their personalities, though. They're popular because of how good they are/were at their respective sports.

Characters go a long way in improving a sport/game's popularity, but it has to be interesting/marketable on its own first. Without that, you can have all the characters in the world and people still won't care.

Pool needs to speed up to go over well with the public, in my opinion, not slow down.

I agree... just so happens the public/media discovered they had personality after they were already established as good players....

Want to talk about Personality in Basketball and Golf... how about Rodman and Daly... where are they in the general public now compared to Jordan and Tiger? Those two ooze personality and get nowhere near the camera time Jordan and Tiger get right now.

 

[CJ Wiley]

a match between Fats and Mosconi next week

Woods and Jordan aren't popular because of their personalities, though. They're popular because of how good they are/were at their respective sports.

Characters go a long way in improving a sport/game's popularity, but it has to be interesting/marketable on its own first. Without that, you can have all the characters in the world and people still won't care.

Pool needs to speed up to go over well with the public, in my opinion, not slow down.

Your points are valid, and my point about Michael and Tiger were an example, not to be taken literally - maybe a match between Fats and Mosconi next week would generate great ratings too.....for different reasons.

The Game doesn't carry the players, the players carry the Game, and that's true in any Game/Sport. It's not as obvious with other sports now, however, it was when they were first being branded and promoted.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Your points are valid, and my point about Michael and Tiger were an example, not to be taken literally - maybe a match between Fats and Mosconi next week would generate great ratings too.....for different reasons.

No it wouldnt...

If Fats and Mosconi were alive and able to play in todays world, the average person only heard of Fats and doesnt know anything about him. The average person thinks "a movie" was made about Fats and doesnt know he just jacked the name from the movie.

Your target audience would be those over 60 with this match, not the audience you would want (those under 35).

This isnt the 1950s and 60s anymore. Your not going to get the audience pool had back then. Hell your not going to get the audience it had in the 80s. You're not even going to get the audience the IPT had during the first 10 mins of a broadcast before Joe Channelsurfer got bored and changed the channel.

I wish you were right, I'm just being realistic here.

You gonna be at the Expo? All arguing aside, I would like to meet you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the world's proven things can happen that are much less likely

No it wouldnt...

If Fats and Mosconi were alive and able to play in todays world, the average person only heard of Fats and doesnt know anything about him. The average person thinks "a movie" was made about Fats and doesnt know he just jacked the name from the movie.

Your target audience would be those over 60 with this match, not the audience you would want (those under 35).

This isnt the 1950s and 60s anymore. Your not going to get the audience pool had back then. Hell your not going to get the audience it had in the 80s. You're not even going to get the audience the IPT had during the first 10 mins of a broadcast before Joe Channelsurfer got bored and changed the channel.

I wish you were right, I'm just being realistic here.

You gonna be at the Expo? All arguing aside, I would like to meet you.

I'm still speaking in terms of promotion. If Fats and Mosconi played next week it would mean they had risen from the dead and that would certainly get some great ratings. This is no less likely than Tiger and Michael playing Push Out Rules LIVE on ESPN. :thumbup:

None of us can predict what it will take, all I know is it's possible for pool to get great ratings on TV. No one predicted what poker would do and they just had to come up with the "magic bullet,"

which was showing the hole card.

There's a "magic bullet" for pool too, the ironic thing is no one that plays pool can see it. However, to disbelieve in it's existence would be naive, the world's proven things can happen that are much less likely.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I'm still speaking in terms of promotion. If Fats and Mosconi played next week it would mean they had risen from the dead and that would certainly get some great ratings. This is no less likely than Tiger and Michael playing Push Out Rules LIVE on ESPN. :thumbup:

None of us can predict what it will take, all I know is it's possible for pool to get great ratings on TV. No one predicted what poker would do and they just had to come up with the "magic bullet,"which was showing the hole card.

There's a "magic bullet" for pool too, the ironic thing is no one that plays pool can see it. However, to disbelieve in it's existence would be naive, the world's proven things can happen that are much less likely.

IMO. The only magic bullet would be another successful movie (TCOM, Hustler). That would give pool a minor boost. Both of those helped pool out during their respective time periods. Keyword is successful. As much as I like Poolhall Junkies... it was not successful. The IPT gave it the best possible shot with 8ball and large prize money and character development IMO.

Other then that, I guess I am naive, but I have been called worse things.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I never would have thought of any of them. It's the general public that knows M.B.'s

IMO. The only magic bullet would be another successful movie (TCOM, Hustler). That would give pool a minor boost. Both of those helped pool out during their respective time periods. Keyword is successful. As much as I like Poolhall Junkies... it was not successful.

Other then that, I guess I am naive, but I have been called worse things.

We have a list of "magic bullets" and quite frankly I never would have thought of any of them. It's the general public that seems to have the best ideas. When it comes to the pool community, it seems they either think "it can't be done," or parrot the same ideas over and over. I know one thing for sure, it's not about the game its self, the Game is awesome.

If we had the same staff that football or baseball has pool would be getting 2 Million people watching ever week, and this, for the most part is because of their experience and expertise. We have the greatest game, we just haven't had the greatest marketing, advertising and promotions. This can happen, it's just a matter of time and a few "good rolls".

 

[ENGLISH!]

CJ,

How about having a sexy female comentator actually get the call & description of how the player is going to shoot the shot from the player in his own words, as well as, how he is going to get position on the next ball, AND the players have to shoot the next ball whether they get the shape or not (another pocket is allowed). Maybe some interaction from the sexy female comentator.

That would be far better than the guys in the booth we now have speculating & 'arguing' about what they would do or what they think the player is going to do or should do. Or them telling personal stories that almost no one cares about, at least not while watching a match.

Naturally I'm talking about 8 ball, as I agree it is the best game for the general public interest.

I am fairly sure that none of us here are going to change your views or oinions, but what type of people were in your focus group.? General public or general sports fans? Opinions from Hallmark Channel watchers is not very valid IMHO. Statisticians & pole takers can usually twist the 'findings' to their liking or to that of the clients liking. That's just the nature of that type of subjective based business endeavor.

I'm just trying to help by throwing out food for thought.

Best Regards to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

We always wonder why pool has to be different, and unsuccessful. hmmm

CJ,

How about having a sexy female comentator actually get the call & description of how the player is going to shoot the shot from the player in his own words, as well as, how he is going to get position on the next ball, AND the players have to shoot the next ball whether they get the shape or not (another pocket is allowed). Maybe some interaction from the sexy female comentator.

That would be far better than the guys in the booth we now have speculating & 'arguing' about what they would do or what they think the player is going to do or should do. Or them telling personal stories that almost no one cares about, at least not while watching a match.

Naturally I'm talking about 8 ball, as I agree it is the best game for the general public interest.

I am fairly sure that none of us here are going to change your views or oinions, but what type of people were in your focus group.? General public or general sports fans? Opinions from Hallmark Channel watchers is not very valid IMHO. Statisticians & pole takers can usually twist the 'findings' to their liking or to that of the clients liking. That's just the nature of that type of subjective based business endeavor.

I'm just trying to help by throwing out food for thought.

Best Regards to You &

Is there some unwritten rule that pool's commentators have to try to guess what the player is going to do?

Does this happen in any other sport? Do they guess the play in Football, the serve type in tennis, the baseball pitch or hit in baseball?

We always wonder why pool has to be different, and unsuccessful. hmmm

 

[Icon of Sin]

Is there some unwritten rule that pool's commentators have to try to guess what the player is going to do?

Does this happen in any other sport? Do they guess the play in Football, the serve type in tennis, the baseball pitch or hit in baseball?

We always wonder why pool has to be different, and unsuccessful. hmmm

Out of curiosity... what would you want them to talk about?

The players personal problems? (ie contant BS mentioned about Ray Lewis during the time of the superbowl).

If that's the case some of these pros will have a laundry list of personal shit I'm sure they regret being common knowledge amoung the pool playing community let alone on national TV. Plus the public ultimately doesnt give a shit if Mikey Proplayer has a wife and 3 kids, they want the drama.

 

[eddie0776]

Maybe it should be done more like boxing.....undercards leading up to the main event. Start off with local pro vs lower pro, then the Black Widow vs the Blade, CJ vs Keith and finish with SVB vs Archer. Pick races that are no longer than an hour and a half. Have Mike Sigel and Joe Rogan in the booth.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Maybe it should be done more like boxing.....undercards leading up to the main event. Start off with local pro vs lower pro, then the Black Widow vs the Blade, CJ vs Keith and finish with SVB vs Archer. Pick races that are no longer than an hour and a half. Have Mike Sigel and Joe Rogan in the booth.

I like Joe... I think he is awesome. But he is a national celebrity. There is only so much that he is going to do for pool free or low cost. His other projects (that pay more) will naturally take precedent which means his time in the booth will not be that often as a Pool Personality.

IMO, Joe is in the booth or somehow representing pool is a way to success as he is the only national celebrity that is currently contributing to the pool world... the problem is he is not going to be as accessible as Pool would need him to be.

I could be wrong, I'm not his agent and do not know his schedule, but I have also never seen him at the expo or the Open in the last 6 years.

 

[ENGLISH!]

What drama is it to have two(2) comentators that are supposed to be knowlwedgable about the game tell us what the player is going to do, be wrong & then argue about the wisdom of the player's actual shot, while the player is shooting his next shot.

CJ is totally correct about the lack of 'proper' coverage & commentary. 'We' can see the table. 'We' can speculate as well & often times better than the comentators. 'We' can multi-task. WE can watch the action & listen to 'other' character building stories, etc.

Again JM$0.02HO trying to help or be supportive of change, hopefully for the betterment of the people in the game, not the game, as CJ says, it's the greatest game.

Regards &

 

[Icon of Sin]

I'm pessimistic by nature, my last job made me this way. I would rather assume something good is never going to happen and be pleasantly surprised when it does rather then get my hopes up for something just to never see it come to fruition...