JB Cases has been holding back.
- Thread starter CocoboloCowboy
- Start date
Now I'm pissed off
it is a copy of my Case, only with other Flowers.
I have DONE, no more Cases from CHINA:frown::frown:
Ralf
it is a copy of my Case, only with other Flowers.
I have DONE, no more Cases from CHINA:frown::frown:
Ralf
Now I'm pissed off
it is a copy of my Case, only with other Flowers.
I have DONE, no more Cases from CHINA:frown::frown:
Ralf
Was your designed by you or designed by John? If it was designed by you, then you should be pissed.
Now I'm pissed off
it is a copy of my Case, only with other Flowers.
I have DONE, no more Cases from CHINA:frown::frown:
Ralf
It's not a copy Ralf. And if you had been begged like we were begged by the woman who commissioned it then you would have not refused her.
As you know I tell everyone that I won't do the same design twice and this case is no different. I made a lot of changes to make it much different than yours.
Of course there are similarities since she fell in love with your case. So the essence is the same but the design is different.
I still consider yours to be the best one we have ever made.
Palace Garden:
Imperial Garden:
As you know I tell everyone that I won't do the same design twice and this case is no different. I made a lot of changes to make it much different than yours.
Palace Garden:
Imperial Garden:
Please explain where there are "a lot of changes".
They look very similar to me on the outside.
<~~~~~~~~always like to learn when the opportunity arises
Both of these cases are done with 100% unique hand-drawn patterns. Each of them has it's own flavor.
The flow of each case is different and not easy to see on either of them unless you have the case in your hands.
We redesigned the inlay on the back to be similar to Chinese frames since this case was done for a Chinese customer. The lid is also a different shape.
The colored flowers were all chosen by the customer and each one is different.
While the theme of both is similar each one is unique. Do you feel that I should not have the right to make other versions of cases that we design?
So your case for example was done with inlays based on a case that I did previously using inlays. You asked for metal initials and I figured out how to do it in a way that looks good. Now if someone comes behind you and asks me to do something similar for them what do you suggest I do?
If the answer is to refuse all future orders of "similar" cases do you think that I should charge a higher price for that? What price do you think is fair for lifelong exclusivity in a design?
Absolutely Beautiful... both of them. And I don't think they look exactly alike at all. The are like fraternal twins, similar in theme but completely different when you look close.
Look at the leaf work on the lid... different. The flowers on the big pocket and the back... different. The overall tooling is also slightly different.
I have to agree with JB... you can't expect him to make this theme only once and never be able to repeat the concept. If he said he won't replicate the exact pattern and he had done so... then that would be wrong. But he hasn't.
JMO... and bravo JB. Bravo.
r,
Greg
Look at the leaf work on the lid... different. The flowers on the big pocket and the back... different. The overall tooling is also slightly different.
I have to agree with JB... you can't expect him to make this theme only once and never be able to repeat the concept. If he said he won't replicate the exact pattern and he had done so... then that would be wrong. But he hasn't.
JMO... and bravo JB. Bravo.
r,
Greg
We did all the design on both cases. Each one features hand drawn unique patterns.
Ralf wanted orchids on his so we did orchids. He wanted the lotus that is tattooed on his neck so we reproduced that on the front. We put the closest thing to a Chinese national flower on the bottom.
For the second case all the flowers were chosen by the customer. The flow is different on this one and that would be easy to see if you were to have both cases in your hands.
They are definately not the same...similiar, but far from the same.
IMHO the (2) Pool Cue Cases, show what John & his team do best. Build unique functional art for protecting Pool Cue Cases be it simple cases, or out of this world functional art.
Well then that is enough there. I would only see it wrong, if lets say I sent you a picture of a totally new case design to make me a one of a kind, and then you made others like it.
But in this case, as you say, you designed it. And having put work into a design you should be able to make variations on it, as they still are unique cases and not copied to much the same.
So I personally see no wrong there myself.
Agreed. No harm done.
To me, they are very similar. However, I did not say it offended me.
These are your designs - you can reproduce them as many times as you see fit. I will "assume" the only reason why you made this case was because you were offered a bunch of money.
You can reproduce my case as many times as you wish. I use it only to transport up to four cues. I use the other case to hold cues at home. I highly doubt I will ever run into someone with either case. Even if I did, I would not bother me in the least bit. I did not "buy" that design from you.
As noted by Ralf above, he is not so understanding. But as you always remind the pool world - you do not need to make anyone happy but yourself. You have plenty of work and customers.
Please do not think this is a personal attack. I am not monstermash. He is vindictive and spiteful. I believe he tried to drag your name through the mud. Little does he know he can not change you or the way you do things. No one can. I can honestly say I have never owned a cue case by anyone other than you. I bought two cases from you because I was worried about protecting my cues. Sadly, they will be the last cases made by you that I will own.
My next cases will be made by Jack Justis and Rusty Melton. If I get ambitious enough, I will contact Marc Turcasso. But who knows...
It is a personal attack Chris. And you're right no one can change me. This isn't about making me happy.
I will be more than happy to buy back the cases you have. You are clearly super upset still about the time it took me to make your cases. I will be happy to give you the full 100% refund so that you can spend the money with Marc or Rusty or Jack. And that doesn't in any way diminish your ability to continue to rag on me whenever it suits you. I am not in any way trying to buy your silence. I just want to make it clear again that I am more than willing to take back the cases so that you don't have to have that association.
The only reason I make any cases is because people offer me money. I don't have another source of income to make this my hobby where I can do it just for the art first.
I'd like to get to the point where I could make cases just for the art and sell them that way without taking any custom orders at all. Frankly I am a bit burnt out on the custom orders and need to change the way we do things so that I am not the linchpin in the process. As Sean Leinen puts it I would rather be the pizza under the door guy who is busy tinkering and creating new ways to do things and not the focal point for customers.
Ralf is pissed and he has a valid claim by being the first guy to have such an ornate case from us. But I created this case, we did all the drawing and revisions, and I literally invented three techniques on this case that no one ever did before that I can find.
I sent Ralf an email and let him know that I should have let him know we were doing a similar one so that he could be part of the process. I think that if he had been aware that his case was so inspiring to someone else that they had to have one like it then he might have been excited and on board with it. I agree that getting blindsided with it can generate a negative reaction.
But at the end of the day this is not a copy and we worked our asses off on this one just as we did on Ralf's.
It's funny, I am screwed no matter what I do. All of you know better than me how to run my business, you know how I should act, you know what I should pay, you know so much about me and yet you never shine the same level of scrutiny on others.
Here is what it is. I have more than 40 cases on my plate to juggle. Each person wants something custom. Even a basic case takes ME several hours to sketch out properly to insure I get the details right. Then once it's done there are revisions and more discussion. Then once the case is settled with regards to the design we then embark on the construction. That has a whole other dimension as I now have to communicate my design to the staff to insure that they get it right. Couple that with the fact that we are often doing new things on just about every case so we don't get the benefit of having cookie-cutter patterns.
Frankly, I just shut down several times a day doing this design work. I escape into AZB for a while or get up and play pool just to get away from it. Because I don't want to get so burned out that I quit. While typing this I am carrying on THREE conversations with customers about their cases.
Try keeping all this straight in your head. Now, have I been a major dick and not answered emails promptly? Yes I have and that is a problem. But I don't want to answer emails sometimes because doing so invites MORE conversation and when you are already inundated it gets to be too much.
As the proverb goes, "be careful what you wish for because you may get it". Well I wished for the shop I have and I have it and we are seriously capable of doing great cases. But there are downsides to this that make it not as much "fun" as I think it ought to be.
So take that as you will. It's who I am and no one on AZ is going to change me. Someday I might hire enough people to make up for my personal weaknesses but until then I am the person who is responsible for case design and getting one through me means putting up with my quirks.
In the past three years we have seen a number of good case makers coming on the scene. Rusty, Marc, Two Shades, , Al King, Del W, In addition there is On Q, Murnak, Justis, Whitten. The reason people choose us is because they can't GET exactly what they want from those guys. These are all good makers but none of them display the breadth of style and design that we do, each of them has forged their own. But they are all worth your business with good to great products.
So to all you customers out there who don't want to fade my delays, who don't want to see your emails unanswered while I post on AZ don't buy from me. I am the anti-sales person here. I know what we do and the value of the product we put out. I am trying to organize this shop to be able to be responsive and take custom orders smoothly for the customer and smoothly for us. But I fully understand if we are too slow. I am always too optimistic about when I can get to a case and when my shop can get to it. That's a matter of bad organization on my part.
So there you go. That's JB Cases 2011. As I do always tell people there are plenty of other good case makers to choose from if for whatever reason you don't want something from us. As partial list is right here on the front page www.jbcases.com
it's seem to me that you dissapointed with JB....would you mind tell me why your next order is from another cuecase maker. Are you dissapointed with your case? is the case not protect your cue enough or else...??
By the way... Both is a very good looking cuecase.. it's absolutely a beauty. Anyway i can see reason why John reproduce this same theme design and he is got every right to do it. But, i can see the reason why Ralf is pissed of..He is a high end collector and he is very proud of his cuecase. it's the only ONE in the world..at least that's what he thought about. But, he forget something. he can switch the cuecase maker and find every cuecase maker will do the same thing unless he is willing to pay a very top top dollar and ask the cuecase maker not to reproduce the design theme.
So, it's not about the "Made in China" or "Made in the USA" or else...it's not about "Made by John Barton".."Made by Rusty Melton" or else...it's all about agreement what you both made in the first hand.. I saw a similar problem in the Tony Zinzola cue where's the problem already solved. it's about Tatoo, ..and Tony Z. it's end well
last but not least..John B..you got an email from me
Best
Dedy (indonesia)
Don't flatter yourself John. I am not upset at all. I have great cases that I had a hand in designing. Especially getting you to make an innovative dealer-type case.
I'm actually laughing right now. How could you possibly think I am still upset? Because I participated in this thread? I am at home on my couch watching CNN and typing this. This is my down time. Ralf is pissed, not me. John, you are like a character on a satire I watch. The show is called AZ Billiards. I can watch any time I want. I am not tied to this like you are.
I do not regret buying a case from you and I don't want my money back. WE've already been there, remember? I feel that our transactions were a learning experience for me. I already admitted that I expected too much from you. On the other hand, I did get the schedule from you.
I would still enjoy having a few drinks with you because I think you are fascinating. You have had many more pool experiences than I have had. You have travelled the world and I have not. I don't hate you personally. However I do not like you professionally. How is that a problem?
Everything else you wrote did not pertain to me. It was like an infomercial for the rest of AZ. Do what you say and say what you do...
it's seem to me that you dissapointed with JB....would you mind tell me why your next order is from another cuecase maker. Are you dissapointed with your case? is the case not protect your cue enough or else...??
By the way... Both is a very good looking cuecase.. it's absolutely a beauty. Anyway i can see reason why John reproduce this same theme design and he is got every right to do it. But, i can see the reason why Ralf is pissed of..He is a high end collector and he is very proud of his cuecase. it's the only ONE in the world..at least that's what he thought about. But, he forget something. he can switch the cuecase maker and find every cuecase maker will do the same thing unless he is willing to pay a very top top dollar and ask the cuecase maker not to reproduce the design theme.
So, it's not about the "Made in China" or "Made in the USA" or else...it's not about "Made by John Barton".."Made by Rusty Melton" or else...it's all about agreement what you both made in the first hand.. I saw a similar problem in the Tony Zinzola cue where's the problem already solved. it's about Tatoo, ..and Tony Z. it's end well
last but not least..John B..you got an email from me
Best
Dedy (indonesia)
Huh?
How come you show up every time JB has an "issue"?
The cases protect just fine.
Professionally John is not very good. He would rather play here. There is nothing wrong with that. Same as my decision to never buy another case from him.
Save the "Made in Blah blah blah" for someone else.... I could care less.
Back in point about the case, i would say the THEME is exactly the same. However the design and details are different, infact very different.
It's more like saying an artist painted 2 different portraits of 2 different flower, common theme, same paint, same canvass, same artist but 2 different subject entirely. That makes it 2 different painting.
My 2 cents, not taking nobody's side but just my opinion.
It's more like saying an artist painted 2 different portraits of 2 different flower, common theme, same paint, same canvass, same artist but 2 different subject entirely. That makes it 2 different painting.
My 2 cents, not taking nobody's side but just my opinion.