John Schmidt BANNED from Viking Tour

[!Smorgass Bored]

When the dogs of war are set loose upon many of the 'Pros' at AzB,they leave, never to return.At least John has the gonads to return time and time again and weigh in (whether perceived as right or wrong)..... imo
Good luck on the IPT and a good decision concerning future calcuttas.
Doug

 

[Bill O]

Relax - run another 400

Back when Scotty Richards was still in NY I bought both of you a couple of times in calcutta's and you both always came right over and bought 1/2.
I've seen it happen where a player is occupied and doesn't know he's been bought and the buyer had to let him know. I was taught that it's the buyers responsibility to let the player know.

 

[pillage6]

Since it's been brought up that these things happen at Golf tournaments, are Golfers allowed to buy half of themselves also? Just curious.

 

[JAM]

Is anyone else tired of this statement being used as an excuse for the lack of professionalism exhibited in pocket billiards today?

No offense taken, Joey.

Until you've walked in the shoes of a pool player who has devoted their entire life to pool, I reckon you don't really understand one iota of what it means to be a pool player, 100 percent of the time.

Taking a walk down Connecticut Avenue and stopping in a local pool hall for a monthly tournament or being a weekend warrior doesn't give you any KNOWLEDGE of what it means to earn your living by playing pool.

How about the tournament promoter who advertises a great event, you travel hundreds of miles and at great expense to get there, and by golly, you WIN the whole shebang. Unbeknownst to you, the tournament promoter leaves town with all the monies, and you're stuck high and dry.

Then there are the organizational entities, some of which used pool players like mere prostitutes to fatten up their pockets and travel first class around the world, while pool players were sleeping three, four, and five to a room and eating at Taco Bell.

And let's not forget about the MANY players who invested their entire life savings into competing on a professional level, who played CHAMPIONSHIP-caliber pool, only to leave the sport altogether, busted and disgusted when the reality smacks them in the face that they can't keep a roof over their head.

I could write a dissertation about the inequities in the sport, but I'm saving that for another time. And FWIW, Joey Baby, I never used players' professionalism or lack thereof as an excuse relating to the success of the sport. You did.

JAM

 

[watchez]

Wager on a horse and you can be the victim of the horse's behaviour.

Niatross, one of the fastest and most consistent pacers of all time once went, with driver and sulky, over the hub rail. Puss n Boots became famous for jumping the rail at Woodbine and going for a swim in an infield pond.

Like Puss, Schmitt has an inexplicible affinity for water hazards. Let the punters beware.

No refunds to the bettors.

This is a bad analogy. Both of these horses started the race. John didn't. He might honestly have not known that he could remove himself from the calcutta but as the police say, 'ignorance is no excuse'. Janis & other tournament directors have this rule & whether you agree with it or not, the players have to abide by it, no matter how far they can draw their ball.

Getting back to horses, since it was brought up. If a horse is entered into a race & then withdraws before the race starts, in some cases the horse will have to sit for 30 days before it can race again.

Professionalism makes me think of an interview I saw with Roger Clemens, probably the greatest pitcher the past 20 years. He was asked why it was taking him so long to make up his mind on whether he was going to come back for one more season. His response was that the fans expect a certain level of play from him & it takes a lot of training to make sure that he is up to their standards. If he couldn't get committed mentally then he knew he couldn't do it physically & didnt want to let down his fans.

 

[JoeyA]

By banning John from all Viking Tour Tournaments, Mike Janis may be bringing the squinty eyes of the law into our little pasttime and that is something we need like another hole in the head. Bad move. Mike correct this one before it gets all tournament Calcuttas banned or worse. Right now, it's our own dirty little secret. Let's keep it that way.

John Schmidt has always been cordial, polite, friendly and helpful when approached by every wannabee pool player or business owner, including myself. I like him and think he carries himself in a professional manner. Everyone gets assailed at one time or another for a variety of reasons. John is no different and I'm sure he's no saint.

I doubt that John would intentionally try to screw someone out of their Calcutta money. Hell, he might get some jelly if he wins the tournament even if he didn't put up a nickel in the Calcutta. BTW, did John buy any of himself in the Calcutta?

FTR, I wouldn't appreciate every money bags running me up in the Calcutta every time I played and not getting a dime for my efforts.

If the Calcutta is for the gamblers, let them take their own losses. Players have a "reputation responsibility" to the Calcutta guys only.

Let the Calcutta buyers beware.
JoeyA

The way I understand the situation to be is this... An opportunity arose for John to play on an exclusive golf course with some influencial people. John asked if Mike could accomodate him by making sure his match started later in the day. Mike said he would not do that. The decision was up to John but John was not told of the consequences. John thought that he would forfeit the 1st match & have to play from the one loss side. He did not know until he got to the pool room later in the day that he would be banned. Had he known that, he probably would've made a different decision. Sometimes things like this come up where a player is forced to choose and because it's a double elimination tournament, they choose to forfeit & play from the one loss side. John is not the 1st player to make this decision at a pool tournament and doesn't deserve to be burned at the stake for it.

 

[watchez]

Until you've walked in the shoes of a pool player who has devoted their entire life to pool, I reckon you don't really understand one iota of what it means to be a pool player, 100 percent of the time.

Then there are the organizational entities, some of which used pool players like mere prostitutes to fatten up their pockets and travel first class around the world, while pool players were sleeping three, four, and five to a room and eating at Taco Bell.

And let's not forget about the MANY players who invested their entire life savings into competing on a professional level, who played CHAMPIONSHIP-caliber pool, only to leave the sport altogether, busted and disgusted when the reality smacks them in the face that they can't keep a roof over their head.

I could write a dissertation about the inequities in the sport, but I'm saving that for another time.
JAM

One of the Super Bowl pre game shows had an interview with a Green Bay Packer great of the 1960's and he said his pension was $760 a month. I think inequities are found in every sport. The pluses are that you don't have to punch a clock, the minuses are that nothing is guaranteed.

 

[macguy]

Very interesting laws.

taken from
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0849/ch0849.htm

849.07 Permitting gambling on billiard or pool table by holder of license.--If any holder of a license to operate a billiard or pool table shall permit any person to play billiards or pool or any other game for money, or any other thing of value, upon such tables, she or he shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

849.14 Unlawful to bet on result of trial or contest of skill, etc.--Whoever stakes, bets or wagers any money or other thing of value upon the result of any trial or contest of skill, speed or power or endurance of human or beast, or whoever receives in any manner whatsoever any money or other thing of value staked, bet or wagered, or offered for the purpose of being staked, bet or wagered, by or for any other person upon any such result, or whoever knowingly becomes the custodian or depositary of any money or other thing of value so staked, bet, or wagered upon any such result, or whoever aids, or assists, or abets in any manner in any of such acts all of which are hereby forbidden, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

You know what is interesting, that is written just to cover pool. If you do a search you will find exclusions for bowling and golf. In other words a golf tournament or bowling league where they put up money is legal, but with pool it is not. In fact in Florida a pool table by law is considered a gaming device like a slot machine so to speak and you have to buy a license for every individual table in the pool room. If they want to give a pool room trouble they still have laws hanging around to do so. I would bet many other states do as well. That's why I was very surprised a guy like KT picked Florida to hold a tournament. If the states attorney decides he has a thing about KT they will reach in their back pockets and find a way to give him a hard time.

 

[satman]

Gambling laws

Very interesting laws.

taken from
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0849/ch0849.htm

849.07 Permitting gambling on billiard or pool table by holder of license.--If any holder of a license to operate a billiard or pool table shall permit any person to play billiards or pool or any other game for money, or any other thing of value, upon such tables, she or he shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

849.14 Unlawful to bet on result of trial or contest of skill, etc.--Whoever stakes, bets or wagers any money or other thing of value upon the result of any trial or contest of skill, speed or power or endurance of human or beast, or whoever receives in any manner whatsoever any money or other thing of value staked, bet or wagered, or offered for the purpose of being staked, bet or wagered, by or for any other person upon any such result, or whoever knowingly becomes the custodian or depositary of any money or other thing of value so staked, bet, or wagered upon any such result, or whoever aids, or assists, or abets in any manner in any of such acts all of which are hereby forbidden, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

A friend of mine owns a local pool room here in Indiana. As far as pool tournaments and entry fee's go, It is legal to pay an entry fee and receive cash winnings. The player is also allowed match up with another player as long as the actual players are the only ones betting the match. It is illegal to bet on another persons skills at the table. Same for the calcutta or player auctions, you are betting on another persons skills to win.
This came from the local prosecutor's office.
The same thing applies to Texas Holdem. I can have a poker game at my house as long as I don't take a rake from the pot's. We must have 7-8 place's that have Hold'em tourneys here in town, and they don't have any problems with the law.
I have read most all the reply's on this thread, and a lot of opinion's are represented. I know when the Mcdermott tour was around, they instituted the same type rule. If a player missed his match for any reason, he must re-imburse the person who bought him/her in the auction, or could not play any more tour events. The reason for this rule, some players would lose the first round and forfeit out of the tourney to go somewhere else to gamble or hit another tourney.
Just my opinion, but it was a good rule then, and still is. Sam

 

[JAM]

One of the Super Bowl pre game shows had an interview with a Green Bay Packer great of the 1960's and he said his pension was $760 a month.

You know, it's funny you would mention that. There's a Green Bay Packer backer up who hails from upstate New York, and I see him all the time at regional events, but he certainly ain't rolling in the dough. I often wondered how pros in football, as an example, who were playing 30-plus years ago feel about the monies the current NFL pros are earning today.

I think inequities are found in every sport. The pluses are that you don't have to punch a clock, the minuses are that nothing is guaranteed.

It is, indeed, a sacrifice many pool players do make, but they do so out of a deep passion for the game.

There were some tears flowing down the faces of some folks at the IPT KOTH in Orlando this past December when some of those Hall of Famers collected their $30,000 checks. It was heart-warming, but yet kind of sad at the same time.

JAM

 

[ScottW]

Very interesting laws.

taken from
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0849/ch0849.htm

In response to the previous post referencing this - I'm curious *when* these FL statutes were passed. Pool has loooong been a sport associated with gambling and hustling - just look at old movies ("The Hustler" itself notwithstanding). Plus the fact that Florida is a very "blue" state... similar statutes in other states may well be more slack (or even more stringent!). It's nonsensical to cite one state's statutes in a discussion such as this without looking at other state's laws in comparison. Sort of like judging the height of your average Chinese person by looking at Yao Ming (the 7'+ pro basketball player) only.

 

[chefjeff]

So you dont think that the guy that bought him in the auction should feel cheated? He bought a very well known player in a double elimination tourney that had a very good chance of winning and could have possibly only seen him play one match...at best! John should have spoke up and told Janis to take his name out of the auction because there may be a chance that he may miss his 1st match or possibly not be able to play at all.....WOW how difficult would that have been??

Southpaw

This discussion is getting away from the real problem....

The calcutta is a known gamble...so that's not the problem---the $400 bettor lost his bet. That's what gambling is all about, right? I'd wanna break some thumbs if it happened to me, but that's between the gambler and the (non)player who walked, moreso than it is for the TD, imho.

THE problem, that destroyed real value, is that spectators PAID MONEY FOR SOMETHING and then they didn't get it because _________did __________.

Jeff Livingston

 

[macguy]

In response to the previous post referencing this - I'm curious *when* these FL statutes were passed. Pool has loooong been a sport associated with gambling and hustling - just look at old movies ("The Hustler" itself notwithstanding). Plus the fact that Florida is a very "blue" state... similar statutes in other states may well be more slack (or even more stringent!). It's nonsensical to cite one state's statutes in a discussion such as this without looking at other state's laws in comparison. Sort of like judging the height of your average Chinese person by looking at Yao Ming (the 7'+ pro basketball player) only.

It is just an example of what kinds of laws may still exist and you can make the assumption there may be similar laws in other states. In the early 80's they had the Miller Lite tournaments for a couple of years before it turned out there were like (I am going from memory) 19 states where they were illegal so it came to an end, probably for other reasons as well. Point being, you don't want to be opening a can of worms. Calcutta's though where the promoter is taking a cut is not even a close call, he would be shut down if any kind of investigation took place and may find himself with tax troubles as well. I doubt many of these guys handle the money honestly. Best not to get on anyone's enemy list.
You could call into question the IPT qualifiers and the various places they are holding them. That whole thing may not stand up to close legal scrutiny, especially with the amount of money involved with people paying $2000. to play and people raking money out left and right. Like I said about cans of worms

 

[watchez]

You know, it's funny you would mention that. There's a Green Bay Packer backer up who hails from upstate New York, and I see him all the time at regional events, but he certainly ain't rolling in the dough. I often wondered how pros in football, as an example, who were playing 30-plus years ago feel about the monies the current NFL pros are earning today.
JAM

I am sure it would depend on which player/person you talked to. Some would feel they were taken advantage of, some would feel that their sport gave them opportunities they wouldn't have had elsewise. I am sure if you ask Earl Campbell who can't walk down his driveway to get his mail, he might be a little sour on what the NFL gave him and what it took away.

BTW, a baseball player from the 1960's with the same service time as an NFL player of that era receives about $125,000 a year in pension.

 

[mapman72]

Jammy Baby

Taking a walk down Connecticut Avenue and stopping in a local pool hall for a monthly tournament or being a weekend warrior doesn't give you any KNOWLEDGE of what it means to earn your living by playing pool.

I could write a dissertation about the inequities in the sport, but I'm saving that for another time. And FWIW, Joey Baby, I never used players' professionalism or lack thereof as an excuse relating to the success of the sport. You did.JAM

JAM,

Why so bitter? I thought that you implied the above statement and I have heard others come right out and say it. If that wasn't your implication, I apologize. And I have never claimed that I have knowledge of what it takes to earn my living by playing pool, although you constantly feed me several paragraphs on the difficulties of playing pool for a living (while I don't think you have ever done it either). For future referrence, I no longer aspire to be a professional pool player so your comments about me being a shortstop do not bother me. I am perfectly happy leading a successful life as a research executive. I do not need to struggle as a professional pool player to make observations about the poor behavior exhibited by some "professionals".

Back to the point -- What I do have knowledge of are concepts like integrity, professionalism, and honor. If those bad apples that have spoiled professional pool understood those concepts, the game would be in a lot better place. Just to thwart a future attack, I would like to point out that I am not talking about K.M. or even Mr. Schmidt. Mr. Schmidt's golf episode, while troubling, is only one event and I am sure that he will reconsider a decision like this in the future. I am talking about these "professionals" who are constantly behaving in an unprofessional way. And, FWIW, I am very content walking down Connecticut Avenue and popping into a monthly tournament because I know that I love the game, I respect the game, and that I always treat my fellow competitors with the respect that they deserve. How many pros can say that?

I think I'm going to end this posting with some famous lines that I have received from "professional" pool players after I have beaten them in tournaments. I'm doing this for two reasons, 1. So people can see how they behave when there is no accountability and 2. So you can tell me that I'm posting "another self-serving diatribe" like you did last time (my comments in italics)

1. "I let you win!" - I know that one sounds familiar
2. "I'll give you the seven any day!" Shouted out to the whole pool room
3. "You get every roll you lucky _ _ _ _!" I think I played the match of my life in this one
4. "No way you're supposed to beat me!" No crap
5. "Don't dog it the next match like you normally do." I did dog it the next match

Please understand that these are selected examples and they are only from matches that I have won. I have another set of "poor winner" examples from matches I have lost. In addition, there are numerous examples of matches where I have lost to pros and they have exhibited a great deal of professionalism, notably Mike Davis, Ramil Gallego, Jason Kirkwood, and Edgar Acaba. Thanks to them for being good ambassadors for the sport.

Thanks for the rip JAM, I'm glad you didn't take offense.

Joey

 

[JAM]

JAM,

Why so bitter? I thought that you implied the above statement and I have heard others come right out and say it. If that wasn't your implication, I apologize. And I have never claimed that I have knowledge of what it takes to earn my living by playing pool, although you constantly feed me several paragraphs on the difficulties of playing pool for a living (while I don't think you have ever done it either). For future referrence, I no longer aspire to be a professional pool player so your comments about me being a shortstop do not bother me. I am perfectly happy leading a successful life as a research executive. I do not need to struggle as a professional pool player to make observations about the poor behavior exhibited by some "professionals".

Back to the point -- What I do have knowledge of are concepts like integrity, professionalism, and honor. If those bad apples that have spoiled professional pool understood those concepts, the game would be in a lot better place. Just to thwart a future attack, I would like to point out that I am not talking about K.M. or even Mr. Schmidt. Mr. Schmidt's golf episode, while troubling, is only one event and I am sure that he will reconsider a decision like this in the future. I am talking about these "professionals" who are constantly behaving in an unprofessional way. And, FWIW, I am very content walking down Connecticut Avenue and popping into a monthly tournament because I know that I love the game, I respect the game, and that I always treat my fellow competitors with the respect that they deserve. How many pros can say that?

I think I'm going to end this posting with some famous lines that I have received from "professional" pool players after I have beaten them in tournaments. I'm doing this for two reasons, 1. So people can see how they behave when there is no accountability and 2. So you can tell me that I'm posting "another self-serving diatribe" like you did last time (my comments in italics)

1. "I let you win!" - I know that one sounds familiar
2. "I'll give you the seven any day!" Shouted out to the whole pool room
3. "You get every roll you lucky _ _ _ _!" I think I played the match of my life in this one
4. "No way you're supposed to beat me!" No crap
5. "Don't dog it the next match like you normally do." I did dog it the next match

Please understand that these are selected examples and they are only from matches that I have won. I have another set of "poor winner" examples from matches I have lost. In addition, there are numerous examples of matches where I have lost to pros and they have exhibited a great deal of professionalism, notably Mike Davis, Ramil Gallego, Jason Kirkwood, and Edgar Acaba. Thanks to them for being good ambassadors for the sport.

Thanks for the rip JAM, I'm glad you didn't take offense.

Joey

Thanks for the good laugh. Much appreciated.

JAM

 

[JPB]

Since it's been brought up that these things happen at Golf tournaments, are Golfers allowed to buy half of themselves also? Just curious.

Calcuttas are frowned upon in golf, but they do occur. However, the USGA can take away the amateur status of anybody participating in one. This probably won't happen since the USGA isn't enforcing the rules of amateur status very well. If they won't look harder at Michelle Wie taking expenses and advertising for Nike while an "amateur" they probably wouldn't bust some hack gambling in a calcutta. At least, however, golf has a general policy that doesn't favor the calcutta, which has always been a source of problems.

 

[pillage6]

So I guess Golf is not a good standard for calcuttas being held at professional tournaments then. Does anyone know of a sport that holds auctions/calcuttas successfully? Probably not, and there are plenty of good reasons why, this thread just happens to be about one of them.

 

[JPB]

So I guess Golf is not a good standard for calcuttas being held at professional tournaments then. Does anyone know of a sport that holds auctions/calcuttas successfully? Probably not, and there are plenty of good reasons why, this thread just happens to be about one of them.

Pro events banned them along ago, and I think used to strongly discourage players from participating in non-sanctioned ones. With what the pros make now, none of them are foolish enough to get involved in stuff like that. Some probably still gamble one on one, but calcuttas are different. And fewer of them are gambling much as time goes on. I would guess less than 100 changes hands in most of their matches on practice days. Used to be the pros gambled more I think. But now they spend time shopping for gulfstreams and yachts and talking to their investment advisors and fitness guru. The USGA regulates amateur status not pro tour rules, and despite the USGA's growing weakness in the area, golf does have some rules about amateur status unlike pool. In pool the distinction is meaningless as there are no amateurs really, just players who are deemed too good for a particular tournament.

 

[jjinfla]

Where is Mike Janis' version?

And who won the calcutta? It would really be funny if one of JS friends bought him after not being able to buy JS.

A while back I was sitting at the bar and overheard two pros saying how they had to be at the golf course at 8:am next morning. Funny how neither of them made it to the Sunday rounds.

Couldn't find anyone to bet on them - I guess everyone knew the score.

Jake