John Schmidt's 626

iusedtoberich said:
Do you think if we could try to recreate the ball (by milling down one of the measles dots), there could be a way to test your theory with a real shot?
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I tried for an hour or so on the actual table with the actual ball, spinning it as much as I could, and I never got a noticeable curve except maybe a little in the wrong direction. We're talking less than half a ball curve when the original curve was more like ten inches.

While the ball appeared to be spinning on a dot or close to one, maybe there was actually something sticky on the ball that had nothing to do with the spot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think it was the set he had been practicing with for a long time so kind of like the frog in the pot. I failed to "borrow" any of the object balls.

As has been discussed, John is a fanatic about using the ball polisher.
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One time awhile ago Ray Martin played in a straight pool tournament and after finishing a match immediately had another game on that same table. Ray told me he started racking the balls when some whiney little ***** started crying about dirty balls and how it’s his God given right to have new balls. I can still see the look of amazement on Rays face while he was telling me that story. I honestly can’t remember who won but in my mind I’m think Ray. I wonder what he thinks about all this 626 nonsense.
 
I've noticed car tires and rims do this "magical spinning or reverse direction.
Recently I watched a 1969 Camaro ZL-1 on a dyno test.
It had white letter tires and they started spinning, all in forward gears,
and several times they "appeared " to be in reverse, and that was not possible.
BTW, this car "outran" the machine. lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOivGSdQDx4
 
This reminds me of the science fair project I did in 8th grade. Basically, I took the blades off a fan and replaced them with colored papers. At the right speed the colors merge and you'll see the combination of those two colors. Blue and yellow makes green, etc.

Don't trust your eyes.
 
Am I the only person that thinks that the CB wasn't rotating completely on the horizontal...? From the videos posted it certainly looks like it isn't.

Not sure where this mystery is...
 
WildWing said:
So now we are hypothesizing that the red circles on the measle ball are a different compound from the rest of the cue ball? Anyone have confirmation from Aramith on that?
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A worn measle ball can definitely roll off as a result of the spots wearing differently from the rest of the ball.

You ever go to the room that was at olde keen mill and rolling road? I used to go a lot coz there were a lot of carom tables and the man kept the place really clean.

The MO there was to clean the balls at least every hour in a polisher, swapping for a clean set while the used ones were cleaned.

You could absolutely see the ball turn in an unexpected manner at slow speed.

Can't say I ever saw what mr. 600+ experienced, but the measles do influence path.
 
ShootingArts said:
...the cue ball can not have any forward roll at all and remain on a single dot!
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WildWing said:
Correct, for the cue ball to be rolling at all, it cannot stay on one dot.
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Incorrect (though I see how it can seem that way). Balls with lots of side spin and little forward roll can (and often do) remain on a dot even smaller than a measle. Think about the "tilted barrel" analogy I described above.

pj
chgo
 
So I just posted this in the Mosconi high run thread but it seems like a better question for this one:

So what's so different between "practice" and "exhibition" runs that makes one more valid than another...?

Obviously we're not going to see a world record in competition, unless tournament directors don't have a problem letting someone stall their tournament for hours after the player has already reached 150

As long as the same rules are followed. ...and it's documented (aka: video'd) What's the diff...?

JS's 626 for example was started in a closed pool room prior to opening. So how is that an exhibition performance..? Did his buddies pay to watch him play before the doors opened...?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Incorrect (though I see how it can seem that way). Balls with lots of side spin and little forward roll can (and often do) remain on a dot even smaller than a measle. Think about the "tilted barrel" analogy I described above.

pj
chgo
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We have the shot in slow motion. Show where you think the ball transitions from a skid or roll in a normal manner to moving as you think it did.

I'll give you a hint, the transition can't happen at the speeds shown. For this to happen it would com to an almost complete stop then start again as the theoretical area with enough friction to grip the cloth stayed on the cloth.

The devil is in the details and the ball's travel doesn't indicate anything to make the theory that an area of the cue ball had enough grip to produce that motion possible.

Partially because after the impossible has been eliminated we have to consider the improbable, I suspect the cloth as the culprit. Sun, a vent blowing on it, very possibly inconsistencies in stretching it adding to the effect. The cloth and hardness of the cushions are the things that can vary with time. When Bob couldn't duplicate the effect he didn't have the same variables. The cushions weren't involved, the cloth is the most probable cause and could very easily have been different when Bob did his testing.

Hu
 
Bob Jewett said:
The cue ball moved in a continuous, smooth curve, gradually turning faster and faster until it was going maybe 45 degrees from its original path. It was originally headed about 10 inches from the head pocket (to the head rail). The curve was noticeable starting about the side pockets.

I don't think it was from chalk unless the chalk happened to be at the spinning point of the ball and was continuously rubbing on the cloth with each revolution. Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBb6Bp496oQ
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I haven't read all the posts since you posted this but it appears he puts severe top right on the ball so when it's heading the other direction it's almost like a masse shot as the ball slows down?
 
The_JV said:
Am I the only person that thinks that the CB wasn't rotating completely on the horizontal...? From the videos posted it certainly looks like it isn't.

Not sure where this mystery is...
Click to expand...
If the ball is moving across the table, it can't have a completely vertical spin axis. That's pretty simple physics.

If the ball is spinning rapidly around a nearly vertical axis, it's possible for only a very small patch of the ball to be contacting the cloth.
 
I still say we need a specialist -- refer this matter to Dr. Dave.

I apologize for my role in this. This situation reminds me of the old Jerry Clower "Knock Em Out John" story about a hunter and a bobcat, initially mistaken for a coon, fighting it out in a treetop, and the hunter imploring his partner below to employ his pistol without regard to safety: "Just shoot up here amongst us -- one of us gots to have some relief."
 
Chili Palmer said:
I haven't read all the posts since you posted this but it appears he puts severe top right on the ball so when it's heading the other direction it's almost like a masse shot as the ball slows down?
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I'm pretty sure John played the shot with lots of right and a little draw. I don't see the cue ball changing speed abnormally after the shot. It may help to view the video at normal speed.
 
ShootingArts said:
Show where you think the ball transitions from a skid or roll in a normal manner to moving as you think it did.
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What I described is "rolling in a normal manner" - the way it always rolls with sidespin.

Imagine the measles ball sits with one measle at its apex and another at its base. Now imagine a thin cylindrical "barrel" the same diameter as a measle and exactly the right height to be exactly contained within the ball so its rims just touch the ball's surface at top and bottom - making the measles there and the barrel's rims the same circles.

Now tilt the ball/barrel just a little until the barrel's bottom rim (and the bottom measle's edge) is touching the cloth - and roll it along the cloth like you'd roll a tilted barrel, keeping it tilted the same amount so the rim/edge stays in contact with the cloth. Can you see that the ball rotates almost horizontally, and yet moves forward (at a rate of speed equal to the measle's circumference for every full rotation of the ball)?

pj
chgo
 
You are absolutely correct. No slight intended. It simply occurred to me that, as bogged down as we were, we required a different perspective.
 
Black-Balled said:
A worn measle ball can definitely roll off as a result of the spots wearing differently from the rest of the ball.

You ever go to the room that was at olde keen mill and rolling road? I used to go a lot coz there were a lot of carom tables and the man kept the place really clean.

The MO there was to clean the balls at least every hour in a polisher, swapping for a clean set while the used ones were cleaned.

You could absolutely see the ball turn in an unexpected manner at slow speed.

Can't say I ever saw what mr. 600+ experienced, but the measles do influence path.
Click to expand...

I never got to that room, unusual, as I got to about every room in the DC area.

You bring up a good point. Are the red dots wearing down faster than the rest of the cue ball, or are they wearing down a bit less than the rest of the cue ball?

The Measles ball is not my favorite, so I can't say that I've seen uneven wear. But I'll go along with your experience, but here's the question. Why would Aramith knowingly make the red spots with a different resin, either softer or harder, than the rest of the cue ball? Some might say, well they would sell more cue balls as they wear. But I would think it would damage Aramith's reputation if they knowingly do this. Just a few thoughts.

All the best,
WW
 
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