John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

JB Cases

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They know what they do to make shots and get shape but can't articulate it or refuse to.
Some can articulate it. Some can't. Some know what they do but feel it gives them an edge and don't want to talk about it. Some just say ghost ball to get off the topic.

One world champion explained it to me like this; she said pool is my job and asking me how I do it is like expecting a mechanic or plumber or any other working person to give you the education that they paid and worked for.

She said if she is giving lessons then she doesn't mind talking about it.

And some pros I know have educated themselves on how to teach. That is also a skill.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
Some can articulate it. Some can't. Some know what they do but feel it gives them an edge and don't want to talk about it. Some just say ghost ball to get off the topic.

One world champion explained it to me like this; she said pool is my job and asking me how I do it is like expecting a mechanic or plumber or any other working person to give you the education that they paid and worked for.

She said if she is giving lessons then she doesn't mind talking about it.

And some pros I know have educated themselves on how to teach. That is also a skill.

Picasso was eating breakfast in a cafe, enjoying his coffee while doodling on a napkin. When he stood up to leave he crumpled the napkin and dropped it onto his plate.

A lady at a nearby table had been watching him doodle. She asked,

"Excuse me, can I have that napkin?"

Picasso looked down at the wadded up napkin, then he looked at the lady and said,

"Yes, for twenty thousand dollars."

The lady's face went blank, then her eyebrows narrowed in on him...

"It only took you five mintes!" She said.

Picasso smiled, picked up the napkin and shoved into his pocket. Then he said,

"No...this took me sixty years."

And he walked away.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Picasso was eating breakfast in a cafe, enjoying his coffee while doodling on a napkin. When he stood up to leave he crumpled the napkin and dropped it onto his plate.

A lady at a nearby table had been watching him doodle. She asked,

"Excuse me, can I have that napkin?"

Picasso looked down at the wadded up napkin, then he looked at the lady and said,

"Yes, for twenty thousand dollars."

The lady's face went blank, then her eyebrows narrowed in on him...

"It only took you five mintes!" She said.

Picasso smiled, picked up the napkin and shoved into his pocket. Then he said,

"No...this took me sixty years."

And he walked away.
Aiming systems can help a newbe to start HAMB to finish - after 60 years. She shouldn't have asked for the napkin and treated it like trash before pocketing it. when out of sight.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some can articulate it. Some can't. Some know what they do but feel it gives them an edge and don't want to talk about it. Some just say ghost ball to get off the topic.

One world champion explained it to me like this; she said pool is my job and asking me how I do it is like expecting a mechanic or plumber or any other working person to give you the education that they paid and worked for.

She said if she is giving lessons then she doesn't mind talking about it.

And some pros I know have educated themselves on how to teach. That is also a skill.
Corey Duel came out to Cali to teach a newbe pool. The newbe's father paid for his trip, room and board plus lessons, He was very precise and articulate but she didn't learn and didn't improve much - she lost interest and her father saved some change. She became a better lurker is all.
You can lead a newbe to a case for his cue but...
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Let this thread put an end to aiming systems. You either have it or you don’t. JUST LIKE ALL SPORTS AND TALENTS! If you are looking for an aiming system you have no talent. Plain and simple and there is no substitute! Sorry bad players. No magical way to get there. You have to go hit a ton f$$k of balks or have natural talent.


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JB Cases

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Let this thread put an end to aiming systems. You either have it or you don’t. JUST LIKE ALL SPORTS AND TALENTS! If you are looking for an aiming system you have no talent. Plain and simple and there is no substitute! Sorry bad players. No magical way to get there. You have to go hit a ton f$$k of balks or have natural talent.


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LoL, sure. Now you made it into a "talent" debate.

No one advocating for aiming systems claims any magical shortcuts. Some top pros use aiming systems. Some even teach others their aiming systems.

There are shortcuts when learning pool, just no magical ones.
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LoL, sure. Now you made it into a "talent" debate.

No one advocating for aiming systems claims any magical shortcuts. Some top pros use aiming systems. Some even teach others their aiming systems.

There are shortcuts when learning pool, just no magical ones.

John I am fan of yours. But, I would like to think you have been playing the game long enough to know better. Also I think Lou is very arrogant. To throw some pepper on the salad.


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JB Cases

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Silver Member
John I am fan of yours. But, I would like to think you have been playing the game long enough to know better. Also I think Lou is very arrogant. To throw some pepper on the salad.


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Well I might have agreed 20 years ago but since then I have seen the value of good aiming systems.

In general though knowledge itself is a shortcut to proficiency as what might be learned through table time can definitely be learned through introduction to and instruction on major important concepts.

I think that hardly anyone would argue that if you took two twins and had them practice for exactly the same amount of hours for a year, and one got no instruction and the other one had a professional player as a coach, which one would be very likely to be a far better player at that point. I think it's clear that the table time should be high quality time.

We have probably all seen that kid coming up that is soaking up knowledge and improving by the week. Conversely we likely know someone who is on the table each day for hours and never gets better.

In another sense there are no "bad" players just players at different skill levels. I think most of us have seen the player who was at the same level for a long time and then he jumps up a ball or two. When asked that player often lists some major change to their game that they picked up somewhere.

This sport is pretty deep in a lot of ways. One of them is that it is truly a lifelong activity. So we are fortunate to have active players who are 80 and active players who are 8 and everyone in-between.

I have seen senior citizens improve their skill by learning an aiming system. I honestly believe that pool has been underserved in terms of investment into the mechanics of the game. In a lot of other sports they are science-driven and the best athletes are performing as good as humanly possible.

In pool we are getting there on some fronts but for the most part we are still stuck in the action-novel gunslinger stage where sharpshooters are born and not made. We really don't want to have champions who are clearly built through a science-based approach where skill-building is consistent and quick. We much prefer the notion that a person picks up a cue and just knows they will be great and starts taking players down from day one. That's a much more entertaining story.

But if you want to see how champions are built just look at how they train in China and Taiwan. Very disciplined and structured approach that creates excellent players.

Conversely the Philippines is a hotbed of raw talent being pitted against each other and forged by battle. They literally play to eat sometimes.

So like I said the game is deep and we love it regardless of what approach we favor.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Gold Member
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LoL, sure. Now you made it into a "talent" debate.

No one advocating for aiming systems claims any magical shortcuts. Some top pros use aiming systems. Some even teach others their aiming systems.

There are shortcuts when learning pool, just no magical ones.

You said that right. If anything it is subjective.
 

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well I might have agreed 20 years ago but since then I have seen the value of good aiming systems.

In general though knowledge itself is a shortcut to proficiency as what might be learned through table time can definitely be learned through introduction to and instruction on major important concepts.

I think that hardly anyone would argue that if you took two twins and had them practice for exactly the same amount of hours for a year, and one got no instruction and the other one had a professional player as a coach, which one would be very likely to be a far better player at that point. I think it's clear that the table time should be high quality time.

We have probably all seen that kid coming up that is soaking up knowledge and improving by the week. Conversely we likely know someone who is on the table each day for hours and never gets better.

In another sense there are no "bad" players just players at different skill levels. I think most of us have seen the player who was at the same level for a long time and then he jumps up a ball or two. When asked that player often lists some major change to their game that they picked up somewhere.

This sport is pretty deep in a lot of ways. One of them is that it is truly a lifelong activity. So we are fortunate to have active players who are 80 and active players who are 8 and everyone in-between.

I have seen senior citizens improve their skill by learning an aiming system. I honestly believe that pool has been underserved in terms of investment into the mechanics of the game. In a lot of other sports they are science-driven and the best athletes are performing as good as humanly possible.

In pool we are getting there on some fronts but for the most part we are still stuck in the action-novel gunslinger stage where sharpshooters are born and not made. We really don't want to have champions who are clearly built through a science-based approach where skill-building is consistent and quick. We much prefer the notion that a person picks up a cue and just knows they will be great and starts taking players down from day one. That's a much more entertaining story.

But if you want to see how champions are built just look at how they train in China and Taiwan. Very disciplined and structured approach that creates excellent players.

Conversely the Philippines is a hotbed of raw talent being pitted against each other and forged by battle. They literally play to eat sometimes.

So like I said the game is deep and we love it regardless of what approach we favor.
One can get good with HAMB at home - no one to compare with/against but start gambling at the pool halls and improve your game.

There are great players from China who leaned in schools and the Philippinos who learned from gambling. Different strokes similar results.
I used to bet on Efren against the White, Mexican and then Chinese back in the day.
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nothing beats talent. If you chase that with whatever system you think you have you will get owned. Plain and simple. Aim all you want.


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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
Nothing beats talent. If you chase that with whatever system you think you have you will get owned. Plain and simple. Aim all you want.


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I agree, but talent can be developed. So one can actually chase aiming talent by use of an effective aiming system. In other words, the system can lead to the development of talent.
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree, but talent can be developed. So one can actually chase aiming talent by use of an effective aiming system. In other words, the system can lead to the development of talent.

If that were the case then you would never have an argument about aiming system’s because, 8 out of 10 top pro players would be using and advocating it. Unfortunately that is not the case. In fact you can’t even count on a single hand of players that didn’t have natural talent yet learned a aiming system and are ranked in the top ten. That is the argument and until that changes then aiming systems are nothing more than an exercise. I always like to use Keith McCready as a example. Nothing he does when playing is something you would teach another player to do yet he has so much natural talent that it didn’t much matter. If you ask TOP pros how they aim most couldn’t give you a conclusive answer. Because it’s something they do naturally. It evolved from the moment they started playing. There may geometry in their thinking but they don’t know what it is. They play pool. They hit ton of balls and therefore they have no need for an aiming system. Its natural raw talent. Try and put your system against theirs and believe me you will get owned. Many try and many can say they played them but few can say the beat the top pros and even fewer heads up.


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JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If that were the case then you would never have an argument about aiming system’s because, 8 out of 10 top pro players would be using and advocating it. Unfortunately that is not the case. In fact you can’t even count on a single hand of players that didn’t have natural talent yet learned a aiming system and are ranked in the top ten. That is the argument and until that changes then aiming systems are nothing more than an exercise. I always like to use Keith McCready as a example. Nothing he does when playing is something you would teach another player to do yet he has so much natural talent that it didn’t much matter. If you ask TOP pros how they aim most couldn’t give you a conclusive answer. Because it’s something they do naturally. It evolved from the moment they started playing. There may geometry in their thinking but they don’t know what it is. They play pool. They hit ton of balls and therefore they have no need for an aiming system. Its natural raw talent. Try and put your system against theirs and believe me you will get owned. Many try and many can say they played them but few can say the beat the top pros and even fewer heads up.


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I agree .
I once saw Keith and Parica at Hard Times . Parica was making a prop bet . He set up two balls near the foot spot . He said shoot the combo for money.
Keith grabbed the stick and said this is so easy, I won't even take your money.
He fired on the lead ball to the other ball and split the pocket .
He did not look at the contact point or nothing . He just looked at the layout and shot it .
I was dumbfounded .
Buddy Hall said he hated shooting combos .
But, Keith and Efren shoot them often b/c of their one-pocket game .
Efren is even more sick. He controls the lead ball during combos.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If that were the case then you would never have an argument about aiming system’s because, 8 out of 10 top pro players would be using and advocating it. Unfortunately that is not the case. In fact you can’t even count on a single hand of players that didn’t have natural talent yet learned a aiming system and are ranked in the top ten. That is the argument and until that changes then aiming systems are nothing more than an exercise. I always like to use Keith McCready as a example. Nothing he does when playing is something you would teach another player to do yet he has so much natural talent that it didn’t much matter. If you ask TOP pros how they aim most couldn’t give you a conclusive answer. Because it’s something they do naturally. It evolved from the moment they started playing. There may geometry in their thinking but they don’t know what it is. They play pool. They hit ton of balls and therefore they have no need for an aiming system. Its natural raw talent. Try and put your system against theirs and believe me you will get owned. Many try and many can say they played them but few can say the beat the top pros and even fewer heads up.


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So you are talking top pro's and how they do it with a forum full of guys who can't beat the 7 ball ghost with ball in hand, lol.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
If that were the case then you would never have an argument about aiming system’s because, 8 out of 10 top pro players would be using and advocating it. Unfortunately that is not the case. In fact you can’t even count on a single hand of players that didn’t have natural talent yet learned a aiming system and are ranked in the top ten. That is the argument and until that changes then aiming systems are nothing more than an exercise. I always like to use Keith McCready as a example. Nothing he does when playing is something you would teach another player to do yet he has so much natural talent that it didn’t much matter. If you ask TOP pros how they aim most couldn’t give you a conclusive answer. Because it’s something they do naturally. It evolved from the moment they started playing. There may geometry in their thinking but they don’t know what it is. They play pool. They hit ton of balls and therefore they have no need for an aiming system. Its natural raw talent. Try and put your system against theirs and believe me you will get owned. Many try and many can say they played them but few can say the beat the top pros and even fewer heads up.


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I agree that many great shot makers can't tell you how they aim, but it's a skill that they developed through hitting countless shots. And I agree, if you reach a point to where your shot-making skills are phenomenal, you don't need an aiming system. But that doesn't mean an aiming system didn't or can't get you to that point.

Most pros credit ghostball, as it is the most common and simple system. However, it requires quite a bit of trial and error before getting good at it. As far as a head to head competition between a system player and a pro player, a shot making competition...I think it would be a coin toss. Aiming systems are for pocketing balls, for helping to develop that one skill - to make shots. And you certainly don't have to be a pro player player to have pro level shot-making skills. However, when it comes to playing pro level pool, simply being a great shot maker is not enough -- cue ball control and strategy have to be great also.

Anyhow, some people are naturals, genetically wired to be more talented or gifted than average, just as some are wired to be less talented than average. And every one else, when it comes to talent, is just average. Some things are genetic and some things aren't. But it really doesn't matter where you fit into that mix, because skills and talents can be developed through practice and repetition, regardless of one's natural genetic abilities (advantages or disadvantages).

The late Tony "Hurricane" Ellin is a prime example of a player who developed pro skills through hard work and practice. I remember him saying something about how he always felt most pros were born to play pool, but not him. He felt like he had to work twice as hard because he wasn't as naturally gifted as the rest.

The reality, actually, is that no one is born to play pool. No one is naturally gifted to do one specific thing better than anyone else. We can be born with genetic advantages passed down from generations of great athletes and great performers, but all that does is make it so we can learn and master skills easier and quicker than people who aren't born with such genetic advantages.

This means we all still have to develop our skills and talents. And the absolute best of the best typically start their development between 3 and 8 years old. And those who start that early and stick with it can usually become worldclass performers by the time they're 14 to 16 years old.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
If that were the case then you would never have an argument about aiming system’s because, 8 out of 10 top pro players would be using and advocating it. Unfortunately that is not the case. In fact you can’t even count on a single hand of players that didn’t have natural talent yet learned a aiming system and are ranked in the top ten. That is the argument and until that changes then aiming systems are nothing more than an exercise. I always like to use Keith McCready as a example. Nothing he does when playing is something you would teach another player to do yet he has so much natural talent that it didn’t much matter. If you ask TOP pros how they aim most couldn’t give you a conclusive answer. Because it’s something they do naturally. It evolved from the moment they started playing. There may geometry in their thinking but they don’t know what it is. They play pool. They hit ton of balls and therefore they have no need for an aiming system. Its natural raw talent. Try and put your system against theirs and believe me you will get owned. Many try and many can say they played them but few can say the beat the top pros and even fewer heads up.
When discussing my game I've always stated that I have/had no natural talent, especially when compared to the other top shooters in the area. I played an insane amount to gain the proficiency I had in my younger days. My direct competitors would play less then half the time I would and it was a battle to keep up with them. That said, I did keep up and none of us adhered to the use of an aiming system. That said we were all born from snooker so our methods didn't differ greatly.

I actively advocate the Ghost Ball method in these aiming threads, as it was what I was shown when I first learnt snooker in my teens. It's imo the simpliest of them all, and also imo should only be used as a jumping off point just like any system. If you honestly trying to gain proficiency at the highest level then in short order (<1yr) you should have disgarded your system of choice from when you cut your teeth.

Yes, I say that I'm a Ghost Ball user (a cheerleader who be more accurate). ...and yes that method is the foundation of my game. However, the vast majority of the time I don't follow the process. We can say that the system has gone the way of subconsicous, or we can say that I'm living off years of "shot images". It doesn't matter. In the end, HAMB needs to be the key ingredient in your game, regardless of the engine that drove you there.

If after years of play you still find yourself requiring a system. Then I challenge the choice of that system. Do you think about how to tie your shoes...?

As far as if talent can be learnt...? Well I know many believe I have it, even though I don't agree. Proficiency and talent look the same when watching from the rail.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
.....

In the end, HAMB needs to be the key ingredient in your game, regardless of the engine that drove you there.

If after years of play you still find yourself requiring a system. Then I challenge the choice of that system. Do you think about how to tie your shoes...?

As far as if talent can be learnt...? Well I know many believe I have it, even though I don't agree. Proficiency and talent look the same when watching from the rail.

I agree, the end result is product of HAMB, though it certainly doesn't have to be a million balls. It can be a small fraction of that.

In bold... There are only a few different ways to tie your shoes. Lol. But there are thousands of different shots on a pool table. The reality is such that you can play pool for 30 years and never repeat certain shots enough to become proficient with them, and so they remain low percentage shots. And when one of those shots comes up, a player that has no system knowledge has two options...1: Play a safety, or 2: Use your best judgment/guess based on the limited experience you have at pocketing that shot, and just go for it.

However, a player that can whip a system out of his pocket for those particular shots has a third option -- Pocket the ball without having to guess or rely on inadequate experience. And the more you use the system for those particular shots, the more you repeat successful attempts. And the more you do this, the less often you're going to need the system.

Concerning proficiency and talent, you're exactly right... From the rail they look the same.

It's like that with every talent or skill. Most people watch great golfers or pool players or baseball players or musicians or whatever, and assume these people were born to do what they're doing, as if they're "naturals". And yes, they could certainly have some genetic advantages, but those skills and talents are still learned through practice and repetition.

Friends have always told me that I am more talented than anyone else they personally know, because I was a good baseball player, and because I can play pool, and guitar, drums, piano, banjo, and because I write songs and stories, etc.... But, honestly, all they're really seeing is the results of dedicated practice and repetition. Well, when it comes to writing music or short stories, there is probably some natural creativity going on. Some people are simply more creative than others. Besides that, skills and talents are generally earned through hard work, through learning, practicing, and repetition. To think you have to be born talented in order to learn or even master a talent or skill is simply not correct.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I agree, the end result is product of HAMB, though it certainly doesn't have to be a million balls. It can be a small fraction of that.
Of course but 'HHAMB' or 'HQMB' would just confuse people...lol.
In bold... There are only a few different ways to tie your shoes. Lol. But there are thousands of different shots on a pool table. The reality is such that you can play pool for 30 years and never repeat certain shots enough to become proficient with them, and so they remain low percentage shots. And when one of those shots comes up, a player that has no system knowledge has two options...1: Play a safety, or 2: Use your best judgment/guess based on the limited experience you have at pocketing that shot, and just go for it.

However, a player that can whip a system out of his pocket for those particular shots has a third option -- Pocket the ball without having to guess or rely on inadequate experience. And the more you use the system for those particular shots, the more you repeat successful attempts. And the more you do this, the less often you're going to need the system.
Ok the analogy isn't the best but you need to pick your poison on this one. If you're going to argue that a player running off of HAMB isn't going to be proficient at the 30yr shot, then they also can't be proficient at applying a system to the 30yr shot. The point in the analogy was the automatic process of developing aim. Not staring helplessly at the sky trying to remember if the weather matters to whether or not the rabbit runs around the tree before diving into the hole.

Yes I concede that a system could potentially provide some greater odds at potting that 30yr shot. However if we're willing to apply some real world reasoning into the discussion. If your a literally a qualifed HAMB player and you manage to run into a once in 30yr shot. Odds certainly are that the best course of action is the first option, the safety.
 
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ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So you are talking top pro's and how they do it with a forum full of guys who can't beat the 7 ball ghost with ball in hand, lol.

I am just saying that if aiming systems were all that then you would have a lot more examples of success using it. And if you had success using it you would’ve at the top of the pack. No? Seems pretty simple to me.


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