John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course but 'HHAMB' or 'HQMB' would just confuse people...lol.

Ok the analogy isn't the best but you need to pick your poison on this one. If you're going to argue that a player running off of HAMB isn't going to be proficient at the 30yr shot, then they also can't be proficient at applying a system to the 30yr shot. The point in the analogy was the automatic process of developing aim. Not staring helplessly at the sky trying to remember if the weather matters to whether or not the rabbit runs around the tree before diving into the hole.

Yes I concede that a system could potentially provide some greater odds at potting that 30yr shot. However if we're willing to apply some real world reasoning into the discussion. If your a literally a qualifed HAMB player and you manage to run into a once in 30yr shot. Odds certainly are that the best course of action is the first option, the safety.
If the hit is thicker than half a ball and the pocket is in front of you, it should be an automatic visual .
Thinner than a half a ball, walking to the object ball and lining it up to the pocket and looking at the contact point or part ( if you like to see the ob as parts ), does not hurt .
From my long observation, the pros do just that .
In shooting combinations, they often point at the contact point before shooting it .
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I am just saying that if aiming systems were all that then you would have a lot more examples of success using it. And if you had success using it you would’ve at the top of the pack. No? Seems pretty simple to me.
That's what I always thought as well... If aiming systems made the game so much simpler than there should be a ton more top teir pros touting systems. Of course the natural defence is the players stroke ability holding them back, and of course the pros holding their system choices close to their chests so they don't have to worry about the competition getting their edge...lol

Everyone considering a system would most likely be far better served focusing on their fundamentals for a little while longer. As it seems that the only thing preventing system users from taking over professional pool is their stroke.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
That's what I always thought as well... If aiming systems made the game so much simpler than there should be a ton more top teir pros touting systems. Of course the natural defence is the players stroke ability holding them back, and of course the pros holding their system choices close to their chests so they don't have to worry about the competition getting their edge...lol

Everyone considering a system would most likely be far better served focusing on their fundamentals for a little while longer. As it seems that the only thing preventing system users from taking over professional pool is their stroke.

Here's the nuts of it.... I've played many tournaments where I never missed a shot. And I still lost. My speed would be off and I'd hook myself or leave no shot, then screw up the safety. Pocketing balls is important, but that skill alone sure as hell doesn't make you a winner every time.
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the nuts of it.... I've played many tournaments where I never missed a shot. And I still lost. My speed would be off and I'd hook myself or leave no shot, then screw up the safety. Pocketing balls is important, but that skill alone sure as hell doesn't make you a winner every time.

Oh you play on 7’ Diamonds. Haha


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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
Oh you play on 7’ Diamonds. Haha


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

And 9ft Diamonds. The pocket width and shelf depth are the same. Anyway, my point is, being a great shot maker doesn't make you a pro player. I don't know how well you play, but once you reach a certain level, the main thing that separates pro players from most "A" players is superior cb control, not shot making skills.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am just saying that if aiming systems were all that then you would have a lot more examples of success using it. And if you had success using it you would’ve at the top of the pack. No? Seems pretty simple to me.


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Not really. For one most Pro's just say i don't know how i aim. SVB says he uses shaft aiming, that's a system. I know several top amateur's that use systems, one has won the U S Amateurs several times.
But if you like doing something and you are personally having success doing it then why stop even if you don't become King of the World.
Seems pretty simple to me that people should do what makes them successful.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the nuts of it.... I've played many tournaments where I never missed a shot. And I still lost. My speed would be off and I'd hook myself or leave no shot, then screw up the safety. Pocketing balls is important, but that skill alone sure as hell doesn't make you a winner every time.
And that would be one of several reasons you aren't a pro, the same reasons most of us have.

If it doesn't make you a pro then don't use it is not a very good argument.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Here's the nuts of it.... I've played many tournaments where I never missed a shot. And I still lost. My speed would be off and I'd hook myself or leave no shot, then screw up the safety. Pocketing balls is important, but that skill alone sure as hell doesn't make you a winner every time.
Of course you're right... I was just in a mood yesterday for some reason....lol

I would say that those short comings on those strong pocketing days are not the norm for professionals though. The decision making is typically the strongest aspect of their game. Bad CB control for them might go as far as being on the wrong side of the ball, but not a full out snooker, (although I realize it happens). As we all know, a powerful shot maker can bail themselves out of poor position regularly.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I am curious as to people's thoughts regarding the subconsicous, CB speed control, and pattern play. I'd hazard a guess and say that CB speed control is about as subconsicous a process as it gets. Pattern play on the other hand, I'm not so sure.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
Of course you're right... I was just in a mood yesterday for some reason....lol

I would say that those short comings on those strong pocketing days are not the norm for professionals though. The decision making is typically the strongest aspect of their game. Bad CB control for them might go as far as being on the wrong side of the ball, but not a full out snooker, (although I realize it happens). As we all know, a powerful shot maker can bail themselves out of poor position regularly.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I am curious as to people's thoughts regarding the subconsicous, CB speed control, and pattern play. I'd hazard a guess and say that CB speed control is about as subconsicous a process as it gets. Pattern play on the other hand, I'm not so sure.

Pros are simply more consistent. I'm sure, as well as you play, that you have had sets where you played at a professional level for some time before regressing back to average, just as you've probably had those times where you played terribly below your average. I know I have. But the more we play the more consistent we become.

We all deal with ups and downs, regression to the mean. I made a couple of performance graphs to illustrate the difference between a pro's performance and an average player's performance. The average player can be defined as having a Fargo between 450 and 500. Their performance scale is steep, meaning there's a very noticeable/extreme difference between playing at their mean (6 or 7 on the scale) and playing their best or worst game. A pro, being much more consistent, has a nearly flat scale. The difference between playing at a 6 or 7, versus playing at a 3 or a 10, isn't as extreme.

full
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
.......
Now that I'm thinking about it, I am curious as to people's thoughts regarding the subconsicous, CB speed control, and pattern play. I'd hazard a guess and say that CB speed control is about as subconsicous a process as it gets. Pattern play on the other hand, I'm not so sure.

I would say you're right, to an extent. It's a blend of conscious thought and subconscious action.
I believe we consciously visualize or imagine the speed and spin needed to perform a given shot, then those conscious thoughts trigger the subconscious networks needed to perform the action. Conscious strategy, subconscious action.

It's like an experienced lead guitarist jamming along with a jam band... It requires conscious thought to monitor the music and decide which licks to play and which licks to string together, but the actual performance (the moving of the fingers over the correct frets and the picking of the strings) is a triggered subconscious network that happens automatically, free of any conscious control. The conscious simply monitors real-time inputs and triggers the subconscious networks needed to perform action.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Not really. For one most Pro's just say i don't know how i aim. SVB says he uses shaft aiming, that's a system. I know several top amateur's that use systems, one has won the U S Amateurs several times.
But if you like doing something and you are personally having success doing it then why stop even if you don't become King of the World.
Seems pretty simple to me that people should do what makes them successful.
It isn't too difficult to figure out who you mean here if one pays attention to that tournament. I actually have only a couple degrees of separation to that individual and took it apon myself to substantiate his system of choice. Not that you needed me to validate it, but I was surprised to learn he made the pilgrimage to the CTE holy land more than once.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It isn't too difficult to figure out who you mean here if one pays attention to that tournament. I actually have only a couple degrees of separation to that individual and took it apon myself to substantiate his system of choice. Not that you needed me to validate it, but I was surprised to learn he made the pilgrimage to the CTE holy land more than once.
I don't think the "Holy Land" comment is necessary but yes he must have believed in it enough to learn it thoroughly. And Stan is an all around instructor, not just a CTE instructor. He teaches all phases of playing and has some great stroke techniques.

And he took a pro player with him on at least one of the visits.
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I don't think the "Holy Land" comment is necessary but yes he must have believed in it enough to learn it thoroughly. And Stan is an all around instructor, not just a CTE instructor. He teaches all phases of playing and has some great stroke techniques.

And he took a pro player with him on at least one of the visits.
whoa.... sry no disrepect intended with 'holy land'. I was merely trying to figure out a way to comment on where he travelled without using actual names and locations. I didn't consider that holy land might be thought of as a slight. I considered 'birth place' but thought that wouldn't be accurate at all.

Again, my apologies
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
whoa.... sry no disrepect intended with 'holy land'. I was merely trying to figure out a way to comment on where he travelled without using actual names and locations. I didn't consider that holy land might be thought of as a slight. I considered 'birth place' but thought that wouldn't be accurate at all.

Again, my apologies
no problem
 

Brookeland Bill

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is quite interesting how for many years the advocates of aiming systems have given examples of professionals who use, endorse and teach them and almost every time the opponents have said that the words and results of those players don't count. Yet when Mr. Schmidt goes on a rant about his personal opposition to them his words are treated like gospel. Mr. Duell did not say he is opposed to aiming systems, he simply said he does not get CTE. When he attempted to explain what he personally does he was rudely interupted and we did not get a full explanation of the method Mr. Duell uses.

Mr. Shuffett, Landon, uses a method of aiming taught to him by Hal Houle and further refined by his father Stan. Stan is a retired teacher who happened to cash in the final 32 of last year's United States Open 9 Ball tournament out of a field of more than 200 players. That tournament was won for the second year in a row by Darren Appleton who endorses the SEE system of aiming.

I suspect that if Mr. Schmidt were to spend some time at Mr. Stan Shuffet's house that he would come to see the value of what Mr. Shuffet teaches. After all Mr. Shcmidt said in another section of this forum that he respects Landon Shuffett's skill. Now clearly the skill level of Landon is not entirely due to the fact that he uses a branded aiming system. But hopefully we can agree that he appears to be an honest and classy young man who has no reason to lie about how he aims a shot. Thus one can conclude that this is an integral part of his way of playing pool.

Therefore while fair is fair and it can be said that if aiming system proponents can have their icons then certainly the opponents can use Mr. Schmidt's words for their side as long as those words stand. Fair being fair though, if the opponents want to use Mr. Schmidt's words then they have to allow for the words, actions and results of the professionals who are known to use and endorse aiming systems.
You wanna’ bet that every so often Stan and Landon revert to traditional aiming on shots. I’ll bet you $100 to a hole in a donut they do.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Silver Member
You wanna’ bet that every so often Stan and Landon revert to traditional aiming on shots. I’ll bet you $100 to a hole in a donut they do.

Agreed! Aiming is performed using ALL the tools you've acquired through experience.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
You wanna’ bet that every so often Stan and Landon revert to traditional aiming on shots. I’ll bet you $100 to a hole in a donut they do.
I agree and to be honest it's their beginnings that have created the knowledge of how the shot looks for cte to work at a high level.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You wanna’ bet that every so often Stan and Landon revert to traditional aiming on shots. I’ll bet you $100 to a hole in a donut they do.
Seen Landon line up the contact point to the pocket on an open table .
Let's cut the BS , a world class player can look at that contact point on cut shots and hit it without ANY SYSTEM .
Seen many pros point to the contact point on combination shots .
How many do you see bend over and line up the ball to the pocket ?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You wanna’ bet that every so often Stan and Landon revert to traditional aiming on shots. I’ll bet you $100 to a hole in a donut they do.
Agreed! Aiming is performed using ALL the tools you've acquired through experience.
I agree and to be honest it's their beginnings that have created the knowledge of how the shot looks for cte to work at a high level.
I don't believe they need to "revert" - they're using "traditional aiming" with CTE. The non-traditional part is how they describe it to themselves.

pj
chgo
 
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