John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

Excellent summary of the ages-old CTE "debate."

I personally think all versions of CTE (including Stan's version of CTE) "work" for the people who use it effectively for the some or all of the reasons documented here:

I think these reasons explain how most cut shot aiming systems actually "work" (not on paper but in reality at the table) ... not just CTE.
BTW, it is perfectly clear that the simple descriptions of CTE don't "work on paper" for a wide range of shots if the procedures are followed literally. However, there are several ways the systems can actually be made to work for all shots (either subconsciously by "feel," or deliberately). Detailed explanations and illustrations can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
Since Dr. Dave is a well-known authority on many pool topics, one can read the following link for a general overview of CTE aiming systems, with comments by other people too:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#CTE

According to Dr. Dave, the BOTTOM LINE OF THE ANALYSIS :
Any align-and-pivot system like CTE requires changes in alignment and/or effective pivot length as the cut angle and shot distance change.
Personally, I think DAM is still a much simpler approach to basic center-ball aiming than any pivot-based system; although, like anything, it does requires practice. Regardless of which "aiming system" you use (even if you just "see the angle"), you still need to practice to develop and improve your "visual intelligence" and consistency, and you need to actually focus on aiming the shot. It also helps to have an effective and consistent pre-shot routine. Many aiming systems can help some people do this (for more info, see benefits of "aiming systems"). Also, when you use English, you need to compensate your aim to account for squirt, swerve, and throw.​
And he essentially says here that it's beneficial.
All aiming systems can offer benefits to some people.

This thread is however about PROFESSIONAL opinions of the systems and our discussion of it. Would you be so kind as to show us Mr. Alciatore's professional billiard accomplishments?
FYI, they are listed here:

And since some forum users seem to like testimonials, here are some for my VEPS collection:

BTW, none of these are "paid endorsements" that seem so common for instructional products, especially in the billiards industry.

I very much love to see Dr. Dave linking to his excellent videos and can watch them for hours.
Thank you for you "testimonial." :D

Regards,
Dave
 
Yes, you touched on something that's very important and I'm not hearing addressed....In my Ultimate Pool Secrets DVD I refer to it as the "Three Part Pocket System"....I divide the pocket into 3 parts and aim at one part while addressing the cue ball to throw the Object ball into one of the other two parts....this is something I learned in golf.....Pro golfers aren't trying to hit any of their longer shots straight, they, instead aim for one side of the fairway and either draw or fade the ball into the middle or other side...I'm doing the same thing, and if we hit it where we aim , it's still fine, however, we give ourselves a MUCH BIGGER margin for error....this is VERY important on long shots or on very tight pockets. CJ www.cjwiley.com

I'm curious about this, and your golf analogy is spot on. But in pool, if I favor a part of a pocket and then try to use some sort of helping english, however slight, to throw the ball in and increase my margin of error, aren't I also making the shot more difficult because of deflection/swerve issues? Unless your experience is that a very slight amount of english, if you can control yourself and not start putting 1/2 tip or more on, doesn't require much if any adjustment.

I've had that same age old debate (usually with myself) about cinching balls near the rails. Do you hit at decent speed with center or just above center hit, or throw the ball in with outside, or cut it in with inside to get that slight twirl on the ball? I've some to realize for myself at least that I'd rather just use a rolling ball, make sure my speed is up to reduce cling, and make a good clean hit. Trying to spin the ball in etc. just seems to introduce too many variables, at least for those of us that aren't playing every day to keep our feel up.

Thoughts?
Scott
 
Draw or Fade the Pool Ball???

Interesting. Is the choice of using inside or outside english a matter of comfort like some golfers prefer fade or draw ?

Yes, that's how it's done ... it's just like golf in that respect....the players that prefer a "touch of inside" are the ones that are "drawing the ball" and the ones that prefer a "touch of outside" are the ones that are "fading the ball"......I drew the ball while Johnny Archer preferred to fade his for example.....mine worked better on worn cloth and Johnny's worked better on newer tournament conditions.....that's why I always beat him gambling and didn't in tournaments.....this is the "inside story"....I'm tempted to write what I truly think the best analogy is about these "aiming systems".....it's not about if they work or if they don't...it's more about what they are compared to and I believe it's shooting a rifle..(have you ever ask a master marksman what his "aiming system" is?)..maybe one of these days I'll explain this analogy in detail....it will open a lot of eyes :eek:
 
I'm curious about this, and your golf analogy is spot on. But in pool, if I favor a part of a pocket and then try to use some sort of helping english, however slight, to throw the ball in and increase my margin of error, aren't I also making the shot more difficult because of deflection/swerve issues? Unless your experience is that a very slight amount of english, if you can control yourself and not start putting 1/2 tip or more on, doesn't require much if any adjustment.

I've had that same age old debate (usually with myself) about cinching balls near the rails. Do you hit at decent speed with center or just above center hit, or throw the ball in with outside, or cut it in with inside to get that slight twirl on the ball? I've some to realize for myself at least that I'd rather just use a rolling ball, make sure my speed is up to reduce cling, and make a good clean hit. Trying to spin the ball in etc. just seems to introduce too many variables, at least for those of us that aren't playing every day to keep our feel up.

Thoughts?
Scott


The most difficult thing (in any game/sport) is to hit the ball EXACTLY in the center, with no spin or deflection...pool's the same because if you just hit the ball minutely off it will deflect in the opposite direction...because the very best players realize this (either consciously or unconsciously) they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)....the way they know FOR SURE which way the ball will deflect and if they hit it off center a bit more it will deflect a hair more, but most importantly if they hit it off the OTHER WAY it will just not deflect AT ALL.....the worse thing you can do is to try to hit the center every time and slightly hit it off one way OR THE OTHER...this way you will NEVER know why you are missing (which often leads to "fixing" the wrong thing).....and when you do you will often UNDERCUT shots...this is the worse mistake you can make.....if you notice, when a champion player misses they almost always OVER-CUT the shot...this is no accident, when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.
 
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The most difficult thing (in any game/sport) is to hit the ball EXACTLY in the center, with no spin or deflection...pool's the same because if you just hit the ball minutely off it will deflect in the opposite direction...because the very best players realize this (either consciously or unconsciously) they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)....the way they know FOR SURE which way the ball will deflect and if they hit it off center a bit more it will deflect a hair more, but most importantly if they hit it off the OTHER WAY it will just not deflect AT ALL.....the worse thing you can do is to try to hit the center every time and slightly hit it off one way OR THE OTHER...this way you will NEVER know why you are missing (which often leads to "fixing" the wrong thing).....and when you do you will often UNDERCUT shots...this is the worse mistake you can make.....if you notice, when a champion player misses they almost always OVER-CUT the shot...this is no accident, when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.

You have really insightful posts--- keep them coming.
 
... [by purposely aiming a little offcenter on the CB] when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.
Seems to me the effect on accuracy is the same whether you hit the wrong side of center or the wrong side of an offcenter target. Can you explain a little more how purposely hitting a little offcenter gives you more information (to know better what went wrong)?

Thanks,

pj
chgo
 
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Creating Bigger Pockets

Seems to me the effect on accuracy is the same whether you hit the wrong side of center or the wrong side of an offcenter target. Can you explain a little more how purposely hitting a little offcenter gives you more information (to know better what went wrong)?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

Sure....at some point it's a good idea to stop trying to be "perfect"....no one can expect to hit the exact center of anything every time...whether it's a golf ball, a basketball goal, etc....Jack Nicklaus has said he NEVER tries to hit a straight ball in golf and ONLY hits a few shot a round "as he exactly planned"....and this is arguably the BEST golfer of all time....so what can the rest of us truly expect to do LOL :confused:

This will come down to creating more margin for error so the pocket effectively GETS LARGER....however, to me it does something just as important....it lets me know that if I miss a ball it was because of a certain reason ....so I can make the necessary adjustment. It's a nightmare if you miss balls and have to guess why this happened.....I'm sure you agree with me on this "I want to know FOR SURE why I missed"....but if you don't eliminate the chance that you simply "veered" the ball in the wrong direction it will ALWAYS be an option....I can go into great detail on what this does physically, but what about mentally? ... This makes a huge difference in your potential confidence ....or not
 
Sure....at some point it's a good idea to stop trying to be "perfect"....no one can expect to hit the exact center of anything every time...whether it's a golf ball, a basketball goal, etc....Jack Nicklaus has said he NEVER tries to hit a straight ball in golf and ONLY hits a few shot a round "as he exactly planned"....and this is arguably the BEST golfer of all time....so what can the rest of us truly expect to do LOL :confused:

This will come down to creating more margin for error so the pocket effectively GETS LARGER....however, to me it does something just as important....it lets me know that if I miss a ball it was because of a certain reason ....so I can make the necessary adjustment. It's a nightmare if you miss balls and have to guess why this happened.....I'm sure you agree with me on this "I want to know FOR SURE why I missed"....but if you don't eliminate the chance that you simply "veered" the ball in the wrong direction it will ALWAYS be an option....I can go into great detail on what this does physically, but what about mentally? ... This makes a huge difference in your potential confidence ....or not

I am glad you are here, this is a serious question because I have sucked for so long and the only time I have seen the little improvements is when I have tried to be "perfect" long frequent practice sessions, long hours of study away from the table, leagues, tournaments, road trips, teaching others, gambling, fishing(I know that's not really helpful), self video and even thinking about pool to fall asleap at night. how/when do you know what that point is and is it possible that no matter how much practice, compeditive play and knowledge you do/attain that there are some people that will never reach "that point?"
 
Maximizing Zones

How so?

If you don't mind and have the time, I'd like to hear about those details because at this point I completely agree with Patrick.

Thanks.

Jim

Creating "margin of error" and playing zones are achieved by first understanding what your main and secondary targets really are....if you try to use center ball you will have to aim at the center of the pocket (with less than a half ball "margin for error" on either side)....if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket....you can't do this if trying to use "center ball" because there's always going to be the chance that you hit it off center on the Wrong Side and it misses the pocket by a half a ball or more.

This same system is used in golf where they aim at the far right side of the fairway (or green) and draw the ball to the center.....OR they aim at the far left side of the fairway (or green) and fade the ball to the center....in both cases if the ball doesn't curve it hits where their aiming, if it curves the way they anticipate it goes into the center and if it curves more it will still go to the other side of the fairway....this is how you create margin for error......what you will start to understand is it's the same thing in pool, only the fairway is the object ball and there's one extra thing that happens in pool (the object ball travels to the pocket)....but the system to accomplish this ZONE is exactly the same...it's just not commonly shared by the greatest players (I never shared it when I was competing) and a lot of the time it's just better not to analyze your playing too much or you'll get too self conscious and your game will suffer...but only temperately ;)
 
The most difficult thing (in any game/sport) is to hit the ball EXACTLY in the center, with no spin or deflection...pool's the same because if you just hit the ball minutely off it will deflect in the opposite direction...because the very best players realize this (either consciously or unconsciously) they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)....the way they know FOR SURE which way the ball will deflect and if they hit it off center a bit more it will deflect a hair more, but most importantly if they hit it off the OTHER WAY it will just not deflect AT ALL.....the worse thing you can do is to try to hit the center every time and slightly hit it off one way OR THE OTHER...this way you will NEVER know why you are missing (which often leads to "fixing" the wrong thing).....and when you do you will often UNDERCUT shots...this is the worse mistake you can make.....if you notice, when a champion player misses they almost always OVER-CUT the shot...this is no accident, when I miss a shot I will always know it was from something tangible, not that I "MAY Have" hit the wrong side of center and "accidently" veered the ball the wrong way.

Dosnt the shot and the next determine what is used on the cb?(left .center.right)

Also dont you think one should know how his shaft plays and be able to address one certain angle with all three different hits.(left ,right, center)
Lets throw in distance and speed of the hit which will determine what i use .
Maybe im reading your post wrong but from what i read when slow rolling or straight in good players are deflecting the cb on purpose even if the shot dosnt require it to make it.:confused:
 
Creating "margin of error" and playing zones are achieved by first understanding what your main and secondary targets really are....if you try to use center ball you will have to aim at the center of the pocket (with less than a half ball "margin for error" on either side)....if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket....you can't do this if trying to use "center ball" because there's always going to be the chance that you hit it off center on the Wrong Side and it misses the pocket by a half a ball or more.

This same system is used in golf where they aim at the far right side of the fairway (or green) and draw the ball to the center.....OR they aim at the far left side of the fairway (or green) and fade the ball to the center....in both cases if the ball doesn't curve it hits where their aiming, if it curves the way they anticipate it goes into the center and if it curves more it will still go to the other side of the fairway....this is how you create margin for error......what you will start to understand is it's the same thing in pool, only the fairway is the object ball and there's one extra thing that happens in pool (the object ball travels to the pocket)....but the system to accomplish this ZONE is exactly the same...it's just not commonly shared by the greatest players (I never shared it when I was competing) and a lot of the time it's just better not to analyze your playing too much or you'll get too self conscious and your game will suffer...but only temperately ;)

I just want to say that I get what you're saying and appreciate it very much, great insight, just great.

If you could only show it with an exact example, with aiming methods, body alignments etc. :)

All the best,
You are a wonderful adition to this wonderful forum.
 
Dosnt the shot and the next determine what is used on the cb?(left .center.right)

Also dont you think one should know how his shaft plays and be able to address one certain angle with all three different hits.(left ,right, center)
Lets throw in distance and speed of the hit which will determine what i use .
Maybe im reading your post wrong but from what i read when slow rolling or straight in good players are deflecting the cb on purpose even if the shot dosnt require it to make it.:confused:


"they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)"

Yes, you are reading it incorrectily...I'm saying that the balls are being deflected/thrown in EXCEPT on straight in shots OR while slow rolling.

And the other comment is correct if you want to play with the "game telling you what to do"...I'm suggesting there's a better way....a way where YOU tell the game what to do....thus, being in more control of the outcome.
 
"they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)"

Yes, you are reading it incorrectily...I'm saying that the balls are being deflected/thrown in EXCEPT on straight in shots OR while slow rolling.

And the other comment is correct if you want to play with the "game telling you what to do"...I'm suggesting there's a better way....a way where YOU tell the game what to do....thus, being in more control of the outcome.

The other part is you can hedge to the left side or right side of the pocket depending on what the shot requires... You can also use more rails in the pinoy style and force the table to accept your choices and still get into positional zones. For a rotation player this idea is invaluable. For straight pool not so much since shape is more specific and not usually zonal.
 
"they will intentionally hit the cue ball to one side or the other (except when slow rolling a shot or on shots straight in)"

Yes, you are reading it incorrectily...I'm saying that the balls are being deflected/thrown in EXCEPT on straight in shots OR while slow rolling.
And the other comment is correct if you want to play with the "game telling you what to do"...I'm suggesting there's a better way....a way where YOU tell the game what to do....thus, being in more control of the outcome.

Man CJ, you always manage to type information that will change a players view of pocketing a ball. This is a very good piece of information.

Thanks

John
 
Creating "margin of error" and playing zones are achieved by first understanding what your main and secondary targets really are....if you try to use center ball you will have to aim at the center of the pocket (with less than a half ball "margin for error" on either side)....if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket....you can't do this if trying to use "center ball" because there's always going to be the chance that you hit it off center on the Wrong Side and it misses the pocket by a half a ball or more.

This same system is used in golf where they aim at the far right side of the fairway (or green) and draw the ball to the center.....OR they aim at the far left side of the fairway (or green) and fade the ball to the center....in both cases if the ball doesn't curve it hits where their aiming, if it curves the way they anticipate it goes into the center and if it curves more it will still go to the other side of the fairway....this is how you create margin for error......what you will start to understand is it's the same thing in pool, only the fairway is the object ball and there's one extra thing that happens in pool (the object ball travels to the pocket)....but the system to accomplish this ZONE is exactly the same...it's just not commonly shared by the greatest players (I never shared it when I was competing) and a lot of the time it's just better not to analyze your playing too much or you'll get too self conscious and your game will suffer...but only temperately ;)

CJ:

I definitely "get" the concept of creating a margin of error for oneself -- the analogy of using "fade" in golf to maximize the "window" of fairway width applies here.

But I think you'd be wrong to make a bucket statement that all pros shoot at the pockets this way. (I'm not saying you are making the statement, but I'm trying to head-off any implication you're trying to make in this direction.) Sure, it makes sense to, say, use a bit of outside spin/english on a cut shot, and aim to the outer edge of the pocket. This way, you have a couple things working in your favor: 1.) if you get the formula right, you'll hit exactly where you aim, with the result being a pocketed ball; 2.) if you overcut slightly, you'll hit center pocket; 3.) if you use a bit too much spin, you'll throw the ball to the opposite side of the pocket, which still results in a pocketed ball.

Do you agree that I understand what you're trying to convey?

My point is that not all cueing sports rely on spin and throw to pocket the ball. A good example is snooker. When you watch these pros (say, Ronnie O'Sullivan, or Stephen Hendry), you'll see they RARELY use spin, and instead cue center axis of the cue ball as standard. The reason is for the ACCURACY they need. They're aiming at:
- a pocket with rounded edges (which will spit a ball out if the object ball hits what "would have been" the chiseled face on a pool table pocket);
- that's half the size of a pool table pocket (there's not much more than an eighth of a ball "wiggle room" in either direction);
- at twice (or more!) of the distance on a pool table (this goes without saying -- snooker tables are 12-foot tables).

In this scenario, "spin" is much too unpredictable. For one thing, the balls they are aiming at are smaller than pool balls (which means it's even more imperative to know the "center axis" because the opportunity for cueing off-center would be increased on a smaller ball). And for the second thing, the "throw" that spin itself imparts (on both the cue ball and the object ball) is much too variable to be relied on to pocket the ball under the three circumstances bulleted above. These pros have mastered the concept of cueing on the center axis of the cue ball. Their fundamentals are built on the concept of perfect cueing. Look down the cue -- whether behind or in front of the snooker player -- and watch. Compare that with many (most?) pool players, and you'll see that the alignment of a snooker player is more precise and repeatable than a pool player.

The only time you see spin (i.e. cueing off-center on the cue ball) being used in snooker, is when the object ball is close to the pocket, and the player is trying to maneuver the cue ball to "do something" -- e.g. open the pack of red balls, or to get position up-table on the yellow ball, etc.

Do you agree, or no?
-Sean
 
I really was asking a serious question and also this has turned into a great thread; maybe it should be separated out from the John & Corey thread?
 
Sean:
...it makes sense to, say, use a bit of outside spin/english on a cut shot, and aim to the outer edge of the pocket.
I'm not so sure.

This way, you have a couple things working in your favor: 1.) if you get the formula right, you'll hit exactly where you aim, with the result being a pocketed ball; 2.) if you overcut slightly, you'll hit center pocket; 3.) if you use a bit too much spin, you'll throw the ball to the opposite side of the pocket, which still results in a pocketed ball.
But if you undercut slightly or use a bit too little spin, then you miss the shot. Ignoring half the possible errors doesn't eliminate them or increase your margin of error.

pj
chgo
 
CJ:

I definitely "get" the concept of creating a margin of error for oneself -- the analogy of using "fade" in golf to maximize the "window" of fairway width applies here.

But I think you'd be wrong to make a bucket statement that all pros shoot at the pockets this way. (I'm not saying you are making the statement, but I'm trying to head-off any implication you're trying to make in this direction.) Sure, it makes sense to, say, use a bit of outside spin/english on a cut shot, and aim to the outer edge of the pocket. This way, you have a couple things working in your favor: 1.) if you get the formula right, you'll hit exactly where you aim, with the result being a pocketed ball; 2.) if you overcut slightly, you'll hit center pocket; 3.) if you use a bit too much spin, you'll throw the ball to the opposite side of the pocket, which still results in a pocketed ball.

Do you agree that I understand what you're trying to convey?

My point is that not all cueing sports rely on spin and throw to pocket the ball. A good example is snooker. When you watch these pros (say, Ronnie O'Sullivan, or Stephen Hendry), you'll see they RARELY use spin, and instead cue center axis of the cue ball as standard. The reason is for the ACCURACY they need. They're aiming at:
- a pocket with rounded edges (which will spit a ball out if the object ball hits what "would have been" the chiseled face on a pool table pocket);
- that's half the size of a pool table pocket (there's not much more than an eighth of a ball "wiggle room" in either direction);
- at twice (or more!) of the distance on a pool table (this goes without saying -- snooker tables are 12-foot tables).

In this scenario, "spin" is much too unpredictable. For one thing, the balls they are aiming at are smaller than pool balls (which means it's even more imperative to know the "center axis" because the opportunity for cueing off-center would be increased on a smaller ball). And for the second thing, the "throw" that spin itself imparts (on both the cue ball and the object ball) is much too variable to be relied on to pocket the ball under the three circumstances bulleted above. These pros have mastered the concept of cueing on the center axis of the cue ball. Their fundamentals are built on the concept of perfect cueing. Look down the cue -- whether behind or in front of the snooker player -- and watch. Compare that with many (most?) pool players, and you'll see that the alignment of a snooker player is more precise and repeatable than a pool player.

The only time you see spin (i.e. cueing off-center on the cue ball) being used in snooker, is when the object ball is close to the pocket, and the player is trying to maneuver the cue ball to "do something" -- e.g. open the pack of red balls, or to get position up-table on the yellow ball, etc.

Do you agree, or no?
-Sean

I agree and if you read my stuff carefully you'll never see that I NEVER spin the ball to accomplish this "margin for error".....I mention that you CAN do it, but I, personally DO NOT....I cue it to the inside, but I NEVER spin it TO MAKE THE BALL.....the only exception is if I need to avoid a scratch or play position where there's a serous danger of hooking myself....I'm not sure if they do this in snooker or not....I really have never ask any of the top players, but there's a chance that they do....and no, I am not suggesting in any way, shape or form to spin the cue ball....I advise "NO SPIN" to win
 
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