John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[CJ Wiley]

Do you know EXACTLY why you're missing?

CJ is saying you can favor one side and dead center cue ball. If you aim center cue ball and are slightly off, favor one side if you have to be off. You will have a margin for error.

Best,
Mike

That's right Mike....just put the cue ball in the middle of the table and do the drill where you hit it to the end rail center diamond and make it come straight back.....do this 100 times and you will see, depending on how pure your stroke is you will make it come EXACTLY back about 30% of the time...the other 70 will be slightly off to one side or the other.....usually it will be somewhat consistent and let's say 80% (56) of those come back slightly to your left (this means those shots will deflect or squirt slightly to the right) .....that means that in a match where you hit 100 shots approximately 30 will go exactly straight, 56 will deflect slightly to the right AND 14 will deflect slightly to the left.....SO HERE's THE ISSUE - How do you know exactly why you missed (or almost missed) if you are guessing which way the ball's deflecting EVER time.....chances are they are going straight or squirting in a consistent direction....those shots will be fine and probably go in......but what about the other 14%? That equates to 14 possible shots not going in and you have no way of knowing why.....this leads to adjusting things that MAY NOT need to be adjusted.....I know how important it is to know exactly why I missed (or nearly missed) a shot.....are you starting to realize how important that may be?....If I honesty ask you "why did you miss that last shot?", can you tell me for sure or are you guessing? Are you playing a guessing game? You tell me...I'll tell you "the inside story"- I'm not guessing and over time it will break a person down (if they ARE guessing) and they will get weaker and weaker and weaker....I've seen it MANY times

 

[Mitchxout]

OK CJ, here's what dId. I lined up cut shots with a little inside. I aimed my tip thru the cb directly at the OB point of aim. Are you with me?

I setup for inside english and pointed my shaft at the point of contact as if the cueball wasn't there. The angle of the cue divided the fraction of the balls perfectly.

I made nearly everything and it was already becoming automatic. :thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

I'm also applying this to outside spin and seeing some improvement in my pocketing. I over cut some, but I'm seeing what you mean about "missing" on the pro side and feeling better about my execution.

My table has 4" pockets. There is about a cue tip's distance to spare when you fire a ball down the rail. My percentage has picked up already on these shots. This info is actually better for tight tables. You don't need it for shooting at buckets. You need it for cleaner ball pocketing on tough tables!

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool Secrets

OK CJ, here's what dId. I lined up cut shots with a little inside. I aimed my tip thru the cb directly at the OB point of aim. Are you with me?

I setup for inside english and pointed my shaft at the point of contact as if the cueball wasn't there. The angle of the cue divided the fraction of the balls perfectly.

I made nearly everything and it was already becoming automatic. :thumbup:

Don't tell anyone it's a "secret" :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Game is the Teacher

I'm also applying this to outside spin and seeing some improvement in my pocketing. I over cut some, but I'm seeing what you mean about "missing" on the pro side and feeling better about my execution.

My table has 4" pockets. There is about a cue tip's distance to spare when you fire a ball down the rail. My percentage has picked up already on these shots. This info is actually better for tight tables. You don't need it for shooting at buckets. You need it for cleaner ball pocketing on tough tables!

Best,
Mike

Yes, that's my complaint about loose tables...you don't really have to use the true "secrets" of pool to play half way decent.....if you don't know how to utilize the whole pocket on 4' pockets you are in for a tough, unpleasant time.... at my best I can play on those tables and miss an average of 1-2 balls per hour (that I'm trying to make) ... there's NO WAY I could do that if I was trying to hit the center of the pocket....and what's funny is when people watch they see me hit the center so it's logical that's where I'm aiming.....however, pool (or many other things) isn't "logical" at the highest levels....there is a "magic" about freeing up the unconscious mind

 

[CJ Wiley]

Developing a Reliable SHOT

Also, I believe, but am not certain, that CJ was not referring to stroking errors causing a bias of one side, but ball interaction phenomenon causing a bias. Whatever he was referring to, I think you can extend this concept to many parts of one's own game.

For example, I routinely hit balls too thick when they are near a rail, but almost never too thin. I don't know the cause. Maybe I'm seeing the pocket wrong, or my eyes play tricks on me, or my stroke veers off, or throw is more prevalent than I realize. But whatever the case, with this knowledge of usually making an error to the thick side, I could probably be much more successful in cutting balls near the rail, if I just aim for a thinner hit than I do now.

It's not really about "stroking errors", it's more about developing a shot that either goes straight OR slightly in a specific direction....if you try to hit center every time you CAN'T POSSIBLY DO THIS....the main factor that players overlook is DEVELOPING A DEPENDABLE SHOT...if you do that you are on your way to playing MUCH better because you will understand your misses.....and that will enable you to start MAKING many more shots.

 

[LAMas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchxout
OK CJ, here's what dId. I lined up cut shots with a little inside. I aimed my tip thru the cb directly at the OB point of aim. Are you with me?

I setup for inside english and pointed my shaft at the point of contact as if the cueball wasn't there. The angle of the cue divided the fraction of the balls perfectly.

I made nearly everything and it was already becoming automatic.
--------------------------
Don't tell anyone it's a "secret"
CJ

You mentioned using fractions of the tip to the side of the center of the CB. It makes sense, though I haven't tried it, that the effective angle that the CB squirts/veers away from a center ball hit (straight) can be governed by this offset. For a thick cut, just a little offset is required, but for a thin cut perhaps up to or over a 1/2 tip offset - depending on the separation between the CB and OB. Of course, the english that results must be controlled to achieve the desired shape for the next ball.

Since you are revealing that much can be accomplished by getting away from the "classic center ball hit", by using a tip offset/s for the three portions of the pocket cuts. This is consistent with the above paragraph, if I have interpreted you correctly - This is the first that I have heard of this method/technique for a pre-shot-routine.

I like the part that if you miss the shot, you didn't miss by hitting the CB on the wrong side.:smile:

To me it is a secret.

Thanks for sharing, and if I am wrong in my interpretation, it is still viable and cogent - when one is open to your and those that have already benefited from your instructions.

Thanks.

Be well and keep it coming.:smile:

 

[Living Legend]

This has become so extremely amusing to me in so many ways, it has passed epic proportions! I am not sure if any of you guys realize what CJ has done here and for "pool" in a very short period of time

 

[Roger Long]

Well, after this latest go around, I for sure am in total agreement, with these pros, that "aiming systems" are way over rated.

Also it appears they have a different take deflection and swerve. Most stuff I read are about how to avoid their affects on a shot. Which makes since that playing conditions are never the same and as such the amount of deflection and swerve is never the same from shot to shot. Plus the distance the OB is from the pocket comes into play as well as the the distance the CB is from the OB, oh and the OB/CB angle, or if it is a rail first shot, dirty balls, clean balls, different CB, table cloth, humidity or so on.

It is these factors above that make any aiming system useless. There is not a system sold that can adjust for these factors above. This is where these two are speaking from, the real world of pool which those factors I listed make this game nothing like golf, baseball, bowling or even shooting a rifle.

I don't use a aiming system, I use visualization. I look to where I want to put the CB. I see the CB going to that spot I picked. I then execute.

Duckie: Your thread was hijacked long ago. You can't jack it back at this late date.

Seriously, though, I said in an earlier post that I value your input, and I do. The "value" I take from this latest post by you is that you force me to consider that you may be right when you say that no aiming system can adjust for certain factors, but that fact doesn't render any of the aiming systems as useless. If you really feel that all aiming systems are useless, then you must feel the same about The Arrow. Correct?

By the way, I think your "visualization" is a system.

Roger

 

[Mikjary]

This has become so extremely amusing to me in so many ways, it has passed epic proportions! I am not sure if any of you guys realize what CJ has done here and for "pool" in a very short period of time

I think so, too. My suggestion is for everybody to forget what he's said because it's old news and not worth anything. :smile: Especially if you play anywhere near me.

CJ, I'd like to hear more when you get a notion.

Best,
Mike

 

[fathomblue]

I get what CJ is saying.

My next question tho is.....what do we do if a shot demands that we need outside English, follow or draw for correct position play?

I'm definitely not arguing your method, I'm just trying to take what I think is the next step in your method.

Also, if you have a straight-in shot, I'm assuming that you do your best to hit center ball and disregard any slight tip offset, correct? At what angle of a cut does this your method come into play?

I love this forum. It makes me think about the game in ways I never considered.

 

[LAMas]

Fathomblue,

I fathom (verb) that when aiming with the tip to the side of the centeer of the CB, you have to know how much offset to the side of the center of the GB to compensate for the amount of squirt and swerve, if any, is applied.

The same would also apply if one uses outside tip offsets - it takes time at the table to find how much works for you.

I know that on a straght in shot with top/follow, I need to use a tip offset to keep from scratching so that the CB hit a rail and not the same pocket - this also takes time at the table for you to master - at least you won't hit the wrong rail.:thumbup:

Be well.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Connecting the components to the line of the shot

I get what CJ is saying.

My next question tho is.....what do we do if a shot demands that we need outside English, follow or draw for correct position play?

I'm definitely not arguing your method, I'm just trying to take what I think is the next step in your method.

Also, if you have a straight-in shot, I'm assuming that you do your best to hit center ball and disregard any slight tip offset, correct? At what angle of a cut does this your method come into play?

I love this forum. It makes me think about the game in ways I never considered.

Yes, when you have a straight in shot OR are slow rolling a ball you hit the ball in the center (also, just to cover my bases, when you're jacked up over a ball, or have to elevate your cue).....if you hit the ball off center when elevated you are, in effect, masse'ing the ball, so only do this when completely necessary to curve the cue ball.

When you have to use outside english (to change the angle after going to a rail, but NOT to help pocket the ball)....I recommend that you STILL come down to the inside of the ball and then move the cue to where you need to create the desired english....you'll notice, if you just move the cue to center and are aiming to the inside of the pocket it will NOW be lined up to the center....I think this may be similar to one of the "pivot systems" discussed on this forum....there is merit to doing this, however, don't lose sight of the "Three Part Pocket System"....you still want to aim at the closest part of the pocket and FEEL like you're "cutting" the ball a hair to force the ball into the center (cut it more and it goes in the outside part).

The way I connect my body with my feet and right hip is another factor that makes this technique effective, but I think I'll wait and show it on video....it's very "wearing" to explain these techniques in writing....on video I have all the resources of sight, sound and illustration to show how these components come together to connect everything to the "line of the shot".

 

[AtLarge]

CJ -- It seems to me that your statement of your 3-part pocket system is incorrect in one regard.

You have said you aim for the side of the pocket closer to the OB, then hit the CB with a touch of inside english, thereby squirting the CB a bit and sending the OB into the center part of the pocket. If you're off slightly in your cueing, the OB goes into one of the outside parts of the pocket. A key objective is to minimize the possibility of undercutting the OB.

It seems to me that if you are using inside english on all your cuts, then the initial aim should not always be to the closer side of the pocket. Instead, it should be to the side of the pocket next to the cushion that would be hit directly by an undercut shot (i.e., the side of the pocket that would be the smaller cut angle). That side of the pocket may not be the closer one.

Example -- CB and OB along the same cushion, with the CB closer to the cushion than the OB, shooting to the corner pocket on that same cushion. Initial aim would be to the more distant side of the pocket, right? Then, squirting the CB, you'd cut the OB back toward the center or closer side of the pocket. [Alternatively, but apparently not your method, you could aim initially for the closer side of the pocket (the sharper cut angle) on shots like this and then use a touch of squirt from outside english to accomplish your objectives.]

Incidentally, I've been playing a bit with your technique, and I like it!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Increasing margin of error by using zones

Work that through. If you decrease the margin of error, you would have less room for error...

But, to take the semantic out of it, I'll restate and say that the question I'm interested in is, "How does this make it more likely that I'll make the shot?"

You are actually INCREASING the margin of error....by addressing the zone of the pocket correctly....somewhat like increasing the margin of error in tennis by utilizing topspin....it allows you to hit the ball over the net higher and still keep it in the court.....this is similar in concept, but not a literal analogy.

 

[CJ Wiley]

no intentional spin to win

CJ -- It seems to me that your statement of your 3-part pocket system is incorrect in one regard.

You have said you aim for the side of the pocket closer to the OB, then hit the CB with a touch of inside english, thereby squirting the CB a bit and sending the OB into the center part of the pocket. If you're off slightly in your cueing, the OB goes into one of the outside parts of the pocket. A key objective is to minimize the possibility of undercutting the OB.

It seems to me that if you are using inside english on all your cuts, then the initial aim should not always be to the closer side of the pocket. Instead, it should be to the side of the pocket next to the cushion that would be hit directly by an undercut shot (i.e., the side of the pocket that would be the smaller cut angle). That side of the pocket may not be the closer one.

Example -- CB and OB along the same cushion, with the CB closer to the cushion than the OB, shooting to the corner pocket on that same cushion. Initial aim would be to the more distant side of the pocket, right? Then, squirting the CB, you'd cut the OB back toward the center or closer side of the pocket. [Alternatively, but apparently not your method, you could aim initially for the closer side of the pocket (the sharper cut angle) on shots like this and then use a touch of squirt from outside english to accomplish your objectives.]

Incidentally, I've been playing a bit with your technique, and I like it!

I don't use Inside English.....I just cue it off center and go straight through the cue ball.....no intentional spin, It just deflects a hair....if you don't FEEL the cue ball over cut the object ball slightly you aren't doing it correctly, or your stroke is off....this is an advanced technique that takes it for granted that you can hit the cue ball accurately.

 

[Mitchxout]

I like this alot. Hal Mix explained a similar technique in his book. :thumbup:

 

[Mirza]

I don't use Inside English.....I just cue it off center and go straight through the cue ball.....no intentional spin, It just deflects a hair....if you don't FEEL the cue ball over cut the object ball slightly you aren't doing it correctly, or your stroke is off....this is an advanced technique that takes it for granted that you can hit the cue ball accurately.

I have some questions and I would love if you could answer them, you give us some really wonderful insight.

First, if you aim for the closer cushion and cue it to the inside, can same thing be applied with aiming to the distant cushion and cue it to the outside?

Second, how do you mean you don't use english, can you describe the difference between using english, and what you do, maybe it would be more clear to us what you're doing?

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Mirza]

And one more question, CJ, if I may..

You said (in this thread or another one, I can't remember) that you aim by aligning your body using CB 1/4 to OB center or outside edge (if I remember correctly), and now you talk about aiming to specific parts of a pocket. Does aligning this way align you to the right part of pocket or do you still have to look at contact points, or something third maybe?

I'm just very curious, and want to learn, sorry for so many questions, I don't have a chance to speak to a Pro every day

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have some questions and I would love if you could answer them, you give us some really wonderful insight.

First, if you aim for the closer cushion and cue it to the inside, can same thing be applied with aiming to the distant cushion and cue it to the outside?

Second, how do you mean you don't use english, can you describe the difference between using english, and what you do, maybe it would be more clear to us what you're doing?

Thank you for your contribution.

Using english is necessary to change the angle of the cue ball off a rail...it's not needed to pocket the ball....I've posted many examples of how to control the path of the cue ball in this thread if you go back and read through it...or look at examples on my web site cjwiley.com ....there's some free clips as well...I am working with AZBILLIARDS starting in October and will be answering many of your questions in video clips posted on this web site....If you want to start asking some questions I'll pick from some of them to use on these shows.