John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[sfleinen]

CJ,

Repeating something over and over does not necessarily make it correct. It has also been stated numerous times that anytime you hit the CB off center, even a small amount, sidespin is imparted to the CB. With that also comes squirt, swerve, and throw. Your system seems to rely on squirt (CB deflection). The amount of squirt is directly related to the amount of sidespin, which is directly related to the amount of tip offset from center. If there is no English (sidespin), then there is no squirt.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to help describe your system in a clear way using standard terminology so that more people might understand it.

I apologize if this offends you. Again, I have tremendous respect for you as a player and I hope you stay around AZB and continue to share your insights and experiences as a world champion.

Best regards,
Dave

Dave:

How about an HSV (high-speed video) showing, with a measles ball, the effects of "slight off-center" hits, and what the cue ball is doing during those hits?

This would definitely dispel what is happening to the cue ball during those slight off-center hits -- whether spin (however slight) is imparted to the cue ball + the expected squirt, or whether squirt only is imparted.

Do you have one of those?
-Sean

 

[Neil]

Dave:

How about an HSV (high-speed video) showing, with a measles ball, the effects of "slight off-center" hits, and what the cue ball is doing during those hits?

This would definitely dispel what is happening to the cue ball during those slight off-center hits -- whether spin (however slight) is imparted to the cue ball + the expected squirt, or whether squirt only is imparted.

Do you have one of those?
-Sean

You don't need it. Just take a striped ball and try and hit it even a hair off center without the stripe wobbling. It just can't be done. Ten second test, no multi-thousand dollar equipment needed for this one.

 

[JoeyA]

CJ,

Repeating something over and over does not necessarily make it correct. It has also been stated numerous times that anytime you hit the CB off center, even a small amount, sidespin is imparted to the CB. With that also comes squirt, swerve, and throw. Your system seems to rely on squirt (CB deflection). The amount of squirt is directly related to the amount of sidespin, which is directly related to the amount of tip offset from center. If there is no English (sidespin), then there is no squirt.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to help describe your system in a clear way using standard terminology so that more people might understand it.

I apologize if this offends you. Again, I have tremendous respect for you as a player and I hope you stay around AZB and continue to share your insights and experiences as a world champion.

Best regards,
Dave

Dave,
No offense to you either but I think CJ's definition of spin comes from a player's perspective and yours comes from a textbook perspective so the two are different.

I think CJ's definition of "no spin" is closer to what you might call "minimal spin affect". He probably means that the cue ball has little or no affect when it contacts the object ball.

Somebody tell me that I should have used "effect" instead of affect. Lol

 

[sfleinen]

Dave,
No offense to you either but I think CJ's definition of spin comes from a player's perspective and yours comes from a textbook perspective so the two are different.

I think CJ's definition of "no spin" is closer to what you might call "minimal spin affect". He probably means that the cue ball has little or no affect when it contacts the object ball.

Somebody tell me that I should have used "effect" instead of affect. Lol

But at least you're cognizant of the difference between the two, Joey! Using the correct word has the greatest effect on affecting the readership's understanding of what you're trying to say, thereby behooving us to always effect the correct spelling.

-Sean

 

[Hungarian]

Dave,
No offense to you either but I think CJ's definition of spin comes from a Somebody tell me that I should have used "effect" instead of affect. Lol

I never get those two correct...:wink:

 

[dr_dave]

Dave:

How about an HSV (high-speed video) showing, with a measles ball, the effects of "slight off-center" hits, and what the cue ball is doing during those hits?

This would definitely dispel what is happening to the cue ball during those slight off-center hits -- whether spin (however slight) is imparted to the cue ball + the expected squirt, or whether squirt only is imparted.

Do you have one of those?

Sorry, but I don't have a video showing exactly what you want. HSV A.98-A.109 show the effects of increasing offset (more spin and more squirt with more tip offset), but they don't show "slight off-center" hits.

Even though I don't have the exact video you are requesting, I am absolutely sure what it would show. I have done enough experiments and analysis to know that the amount of squirt is directly related to the amount of tip-contact-point offset from center. The amount of sidespin is also directly related to the amount of tip-contact-point offset from center. A slight off-center hit creates a slight amount of sidespin and a slight amount of squirt. If there is squirt, there is also sidespin, and both increase by the same percentage as the tip offset is increased.

FYI, an explanation and illustration of why you can't have squirt without sidespin can be found in the following article:

"Squirt - Part I: introduction" (August, 2007).​

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

I originally posted that I thought CJ primarily used a traditional maple shaft and he confirmed that.

The 30 minutes I spent hitting balls using CJ's aiming technique for effectively making the pocket larger was with a LD shaft.

Tonight, I hope to use a traditional maple shaft using the same technique to see if I have different results.

 

[dr_dave]

Dave,
No offense to you either but I think CJ's definition of spin comes from a player's perspective and yours comes from a textbook perspective so the two are different.

I think CJ's definition of "no spin" is closer to what you might call "minimal spin affect". He probably means that the cue ball has little or no affect when it contacts the object ball.

Joey,

I also suspect that CJ thinks the amount of spin is so small that it has no practical effect. A small amount of spin doesn't create much swerve or SIT, and sidespin wears off as the CB rolls or slides along the cloth (more so at slower speeds and longer distances). And if the CB got to a cushion after hitting the OB, the rebound angle might not be affected much with a "slight off-center" hit (unless the OB were close to a rail and/or if faster speed were used).

However, if the amount of spin is very small, the amount of squirt will also be very small. You can't get one without the other. This is true both in a "textbook" and at the table (from a "player's perspective").

Also, have ever ever tried the MOFUDAT drill before? If you have, or if you do, it will be obvious that even with a slight offset from center (intentional or not), there is sidespin, and the sidespin can affect the shot, even from a "player's perspective."

Regards,
Dave

 

[Hungarian]

I like this thread again.

CJ, you're one of the best at describing pool in a way where it can be applied it on the table.

I don't need to follow a legend of symbols or a glossary of terms to figure out what you mean.

I don't need to plot out vector diagrams to fully understand the meaning of your examples.

Just words in plain English..(no pun intended) coming from one of the most explosive nine ballers in the modern era.

Your examples have Merritt since they've been applied in real pressure situations.

And it's not often that a world champion pool player can also express himself in an articulate, cohesive manner and deliver learnings in a way that can be understood.

 

[dr_dave]

I originally posted that I thought CJ primarily used a traditional maple shaft and he confirmed that.

The 30 minutes I spent hitting balls using CJ's aiming technique for effectively making the pocket larger was with a LD shaft.

Tonight, I hope to use a traditional maple shaft using the same technique to see if I have different results.

Joey,

I can tell you from both a "player's perspective" and "textbook understanding" that the amount of squirt will be different if you use an LD shaft vs. a non-LD shaft. :grin:

And if you hit the CB off-center enough to impart spin and squirt, the results will be different between the two shafts, assuming you aim and stroke the shots the same way with both shafts.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I can tell you from both a "player's perspective" and "textbook understanding" that the amount of squirt will be different if you use an LD shaft vs. a non-LD shaft. :grin:

And if you hit the CB off-center enough to impart spin and squirt, the results will be different between the two shafts, assuming you aim and stroke the shots the same way with both shafts.

Regards,
Dave

Do you know from a player's perspective if you would be competent using CJ's technique using a non-LD shaft?

And just for the record, what type of shaft do you normally play with?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I can tell you from both a "player's perspective" and "textbook understanding" that the amount of squirt will be different if you use an LD shaft vs. a non-LD shaft. :grin:

Of course, "textbook understanding" is a "player's perspective" - just more detailed and more deeply understood. Any player benefits from knowing more about how things happen on the table, just as any "textbook knowledgable" student of the game benefits from lots of practical application (playing/practice).

pj
chgo

 

[Joe T]

Dave,
No offense to you either but I think CJ's definition of spin comes from a player's perspective and yours comes from a textbook perspective so the two are different.

I think CJ's definition of "no spin" is closer to what you might call "minimal spin affect". He probably means that the cue ball has little or no affect when it contacts the object ball.

Somebody tell me that I should have used "effect" instead of affect. Lol

I can see why CJ says no spin particularly on many of these shots where the cb is struck with acceleration, middle or bottom and strikes a cushion right after. When I hit these shots it looks like no spin has been applied but it could be the 2 forces are canceling each other out? One says come back (middle & draw) off the tangent line and the other (inside) says go forward off the cushion and we get a dead or flat cb. In my opinion and with limited experience spin is more evident when topspin is applied but with a stun type top the spin can also appear invisible.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I also suspect that CJ thinks the amount of spin is so small that it has no practical effect. A small amount of spin doesn't create much swerve or SIT, and sidespin wears off as the CB rolls or slides along the cloth (more so at slower speeds and longer distances). And if the CB got to a cushion after hitting the OB, the rebound angle might not be affected much with a "slight off-center" hit (unless the OB were close to a rail and/or if faster speed were used).

However, if the amount of spin is very small, the amount of squirt will also be very small. You can't get one without the other. This is true both in a "textbook" and at the table (from a "player's perspective").

Also, have ever ever tried the MOFUDAT drill before? If you have, or if you do, it will be obvious that even with a slight offset from center (intentional or not), there is sidespin, and the sidespin can affect the shot, even from a "player's perspective."

Regards,
Dave

You miss more balls when you cut to the left, (as opposed to cutting to the right) dont you?

 

[dr_dave]

Do you know from a player's perspective if you would be competent using CJ's technique using a non-LD shaft?

Yes, I think I could make it work. I might not make every shot on the first attempt, but I'm sure I could make adjustments to make it work. For example, maybe I would use more or less English or aim closer or farther from the center of the pocket on some shots vs. others based on shot speed, shot distance, cloth conditions, and the amount of squirt the shaft produces.

And just for the record, what type of shaft do you normally play with?

Predator Z-2.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I can see why CJ says no spin particularly on many of these shots where the cb is struck with acceleration, middle or bottom and strikes a cushion right after. When I hit these shots it looks like no spin has been applied but it could be the 2 forces are canceling each other out? One says come back (middle & draw) off the tangent line and the other (inside) says go forward off the cushion and we get a dead or flat cb. In my opinion and with limited experience spin is more evident when topspin is applied but with a stun type top the spin can also appear invisible.

It's also possible that such a slight amount of inside spin is mostly "erased" by contact with the OB, which tends to put a little outside spin on the CB.

So with this particular kind of shot there might be no sidespin effect (with an "e", Joey ) in practical terms. But it's important to understand that distinction - otherwise you might get wrong ideas like an "accelerating" stroke can somehow negate sidespin.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

You miss more balls when you cut to the left, (as opposed to cutting to the right) dont you?

No, because I have found my personal vision center, and I always position my head in my vision center position (regardless of the cut direction). Although, this wasn't always the case for me. I changed my stance and head position a couple of years ago when I realized I wasn't very well centered, and I have better accuracy as a result (especially with long straight shots, which used to give me trouble).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

It's also possible that such a slight amount of inside spin is mostly "erased" by contact with the OB, which tends to put a little outside spin on the CB.

So with this particular kind of shot there might be no sidespin effect (with an "e", Joey ) in practical terms. But it's important to understand that distinction - otherwise you might get wrong ideas like an "accelerating" stroke can somehow negate sidespin.

pj
chgo

I agree.....

 

[dr_dave]

It's also possible that such a slight amount of inside spin is mostly "erased" by contact with the OB, which tends to put a little outside spin on the CB.

So with this particular kind of shot there might be no sidespin effect (with an "e", Joey ) in practical terms. But it's important to understand that distinction - otherwise you might get wrong ideas like an "accelerating" stroke can somehow negate sidespin.

I agree.....

I agree also, from both a "player's perspective" and from my "textbook understanding."

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Please be considerate and understand that I'm not just helping you, Mr Johnson (even though you are becoming my favorite student), there are about 600 total people on this forum and I believe there's a gift I have for each and every one.

Mr. Wiley, I think you have misidentified the student/teacher relationship.

You and the 600 or so total people on this forum are the students and PJ is God's gift for each and every one. He may actually BE God. He reminds me of Bill Murray in Groundhog Day where he says, "I don't think I'm THE God, just A God." That's PJ. He's capable of taking cursory looks at techniques and knowing if they're legit or not (without trying them). That's how smart he is.