John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[JoeyA]

I didn't misunderstand. I think you're playing for the pocket rather than targeting a part of the pocket. I think you're using this technique to "hit a range" of the pocket rather than specifically center. Center is obviously the goal, but not the conscious target. There's a difference. You're actually taking advantage of the human element of slight stroke randomness that affects almost every player on earth rather than striving to be perfect which doesn't happen 100% of the time.

Have you invested any time to learning the technique on the table?

I have taken some time to learn the technique using both LD shaft and non-LD shaft.

If I were using a non-LD shaft, I could see myself using CJ's technique more often.

Like some of the modern aiming systems in pool, this technique of CJ's has many benefits, such as the ones already posted in this thread. Another thing that this technique does, is increase your focus.

When you pay attention to which portion of the pocket you plan to send the object ball (as opposed to sending the cue ball to the center of the pocket), you increase your focus. When you apply that ever so slight amount of inside, you are further harnessing your mind's ability to focus. When you know you are locked on to the shot, it gives you great confidence in making the shot.

While I haven't played with this technique for but an hour total, it has great merit for those who would invest the time to use it, (if they have the skills or are willing to develop the skills to master it).

Personally speaking, I believe this is an advanced technique not easily utilized by beginning or even intermediate players. Some intermediate players may boost their game by mastering this technique, especially if they are using a non-LD shaft. I found that I had more misses with the LD shaft than with the non-LD shaft. I tried warping balls into the hole with both shafts and had good success doing so with the non-LD shaft and mediocre success warping balls into the hole with the LD shaft. Sometimes I like to test my ability to warp balls in the hole. :grin: I often wonder why I do that and sometimes write it off to some male machismo but I think deep down, I feel that if I can make a shot warping the ball into the hole, I will have greater confidence in making the object ball at slower speeds.

Like the modern day aiming systems that incorporate eyes and specific body alignment, this isn't going to make you a Pool Sensei, but learning it and mastering it will make you a better pool player, if only to broaden your horizons and teach you about the different levels of focus and how additional focus can improve your game.

The only trouble I found is that the LD shaft I am using required an additional amount of inside that I didn't like using to obtain the same amount of squirt as the non-LD shaft. I have to guess that this too would not be a problem if you got used to it. It's all about knowing your equipment.

I have no doubt that if someone used this technique for an extended period of time (and mastered it), it could easily become a permanent part of their improved game.

For those of you who know me and have followed my journey, you know that I don't hesitate to change equipment, aiming systems, or any other technique for that matter. For now, I am going to stick with the LD shaft and try to master that. Maybe the continuos testing of new methods, different techniques and new equipment is what keeps me a banger but I'm still having fun. :grin:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I have taken some time to learn the technique using both LD shaft and non-LD shaft.

If I were using a non-LD shaft, I could see myself using CJ's technique more often.

Like some of the modern aiming systems in pool, this technique of CJ's has many benefits, such as the ones already posted in this thread. Another thing that this technique does, is increase your focus.

When you pay attention to which portion of the pocket you plan to send the object ball (as opposed to sending the cue ball to the center of the pocket), you increase your focus. When you apply that ever so slight amount of inside, you are further harnessing your mind's ability to focus. When you know you are locked on to the shot, it gives you great confidence in making the shot.

While I haven't played with this technique for but an hour total, it has great merit for those who would invest the time to use it, (if they have the skills or are willing to develop the skills to master it).

Personally speaking, I believe this is an advanced technique not easily utilized by beginning or even intermediate players. Some intermediate players may boost their game by mastering this technique, especially if they are using a non-LD shaft. I found that I had more misses with the LD shaft than with the non-LD shaft. I tried warping balls into the hole with both shafts and had good success doing so with the non-LD shaft and mediocre success warping balls into the hole with the LD shaft. Sometimes I like to test my ability to warp balls in the hole. :grin: I often wonder why I do that and sometimes write it off to some male machismo but I think deep down, I feel that if I can make a shot warping the ball into the hole, I will have greater confidence in making the object ball at slower speeds.

Like the modern day aiming systems that incorporate eyes and specific body alignment, this isn't going to make you a Pool Sensei, but learning it and mastering it will make you a better pool player, if only to broaden your horizons and teach you about the different levels of focus and how additional focus can improve your game.

The only trouble I found is that the LD shaft I am using required an additional amount of inside that I didn't like using to obtain the same amount of squirt as the non-LD shaft. I have to guess that this too would not be a problem if you got used to it. It's all about knowing your equipment.

I have no doubt that if someone used this technique for an extended period of time (and mastered it), it could easily become a permanent part of their improved game.

For those of you who know me and have followed my journey, you know that I don't hesitate to change equipment, aiming systems, or any other technique for that matter. For now, I am going to stick with the LD shaft and try to master that. Maybe the continuos testing of new methods, different techniques and new equipment is what keeps me a banger but I'm still having fun. :grin:

Great post as always, Joey.

This is def not a beginner/intermediate technique, agreed. If a player isn't perfect in their initial setup and have a really random stroke, they might as well hit the CB and then turn on CNN to see where the OB landed, just as they did w/ SCUD missiles during Desert Storm.

 

[Joe T]

I have taken some time to learn the technique using both LD shaft and non-LD shaft.

If I were using a non-LD shaft, I could see myself using CJ's technique more often.

Like some of the modern aiming systems in pool, this technique of CJ's has many benefits, such as the ones already posted in this thread. Another thing that this technique does, is increase your focus.

When you pay attention to which portion of the pocket you plan to send the object ball (as opposed to sending the cue ball to the center of the pocket), you increase your focus. When you apply that ever so slight amount of inside, you are further harnessing your mind's ability to focus. When you know you are locked on to the shot, it gives you great confidence in making the shot.

While I haven't played with this technique for but an hour total, it has great merit for those who would invest the time to use it, (if they have the skills or are willing to develop the skills to master it).

Personally speaking, I believe this is an advanced technique not easily utilized by beginning or even intermediate players. Some intermediate players may boost their game by mastering this technique, especially if they are using a non-LD shaft. I found that I had more misses with the LD shaft than with the non-LD shaft. I tried warping balls into the hole with both shafts and had good success doing so with the non-LD shaft and mediocre success warping balls into the hole with the LD shaft. Sometimes I like to test my ability to warp balls in the hole. :grin: I often wonder why I do that and sometimes write it off to some male machismo but I think deep down, I feel that if I can make a shot warping the ball into the hole, I will have greater confidence in making the object ball at slower speeds.

Like the modern day aiming systems that incorporate eyes and specific body alignment, this isn't going to make you a Pool Sensei, but learning it and mastering it will make you a better pool player, if only to broaden your horizons and teach you about the different levels of focus and how additional focus can improve your game.

The only trouble I found is that the LD shaft I am using required an additional amount of inside that I didn't like using to obtain the same amount of squirt as the non-LD shaft. I have to guess that this too would not be a problem if you got used to it. It's all about knowing your equipment.

I have no doubt that if someone used this technique for an extended period of time (and mastered it), it could easily become a permanent part of their improved game.

For those of you who know me and have followed my journey, you know that I don't hesitate to change equipment, aiming systems, or any other technique for that matter. For now, I am going to stick with the LD shaft and try to master that. Maybe the continuos testing of new methods, different techniques and new equipment is what keeps me a banger but I'm still having fun. :grin:

Hey Joey, I would guess from here that you were applying the inside with a slight angle on your cue? I believe CJ is very straight with the entire cue slightly parallel of center and even with a z2 I have no problem getting the squirt when doing that, its when I slip into my own way applying spin that I don't get the squirt required.

CJ I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS SH**!! :wink:
But I can't help it, its like new pool, lol

The cue ball comes back off the tangent line faster than EVER. To the point where it does not make sense to my brain. Especially because we are trying to overcut the ball and my old way of thinking is hit full to pull the cb back, lol. I'm thinking the slight inside revolution combined with the draw is the reason? Not sure but I know there's a big difference.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think you did.

Dave is saying what I've been saying: the physical acts are identical. In both cases you hit the cue ball on the same spot from the same angle at the same speed. The only difference is how you're describing it to yourself.

This is the cognitive impasse in this topic where mutual understanding will be slow to come and probably all we can do now is agree to disagree. We've been here before on other topics (with mostly the same people on either side).

pj
chgo

This is my last post to you because you clearly are lost. They're not identical. Although they are identical on a chalk-board, they're NOT in real life. Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots.

When shooting inside, your brain perceives "squirt" and with outside your brain perceives "spin." The fact that you don't get that is further testament that you need to develop your concepts based on playing and not a protractor.

News bulletin to PJ: That's why SO many players fear inside english shots when compared to outside english. Their outside english make-% far exceeds inside english. I doubt there's anyone in the world who has a higher make % with inside versus outside when trying to do something w/ the CB.

If they're identical in the physics world, why isn't it identical during practical application? That's why you continue to propagate bad info and meaningless diatribe on physics facts when you really need to hit some balls in order to base your opinion.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dr. Dave--- you're still not understanding his technique.

He's physically aiming the ball to miss the pocket. Center english from his initial alignment results in not even hitting the hole. He's applying enough inside that with a accelerating firm stroke, the CB will squirt enough for the OB to be pocketed, as he's playing for the entire pocket.

If you aim for the center of the pocket, unless you hit a dead-true center ball hit, you're only allowing for a 1/2 pocket tolerance margin of error. If aiming for dead-center of the cue ball, one technically can miss on either side if they have the slightest of stroking errors. What CJ is saying is that if you intentionally hit on the inside, a stroking error further inside pockets the ball in the far inside edge of the pocket. A slight stroking error pockets the ball to the outside edge of the pocket. Just right is center hole.

If you ask why not just do the same for outside english and use spin versus squirt, the answer is CB control. You're always shooting with "slight hold-up" versus "a lot of go."

Good explanation. Well said.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Wow, this thread reminds me of a bunch of lawyers fighting back and forth over the wording while everyone already knows what is meant.

Seems like lawyers goal is to keep fighting so they can bill hours and here the goal for some is to keep arguing so they can say they won.

I think the goal for lawyers clients should be quick and fair resolution and the goal for this thread is to learn a technique that can help improve one's pool game.

You are definitely correct for almost all lawyers. There may even be collution between lawyers. On here, I'm not so sure. For some maybe. For others, they may simply be very passionate about either playing pool, teaching pool, or the search for the truth.

 

[Neil]

I have taken some time to learn the technique using both LD shaft and non-LD shaft.

If I were using a non-LD shaft, I could see myself using CJ's technique more often.

Like some of the modern aiming systems in pool, this technique of CJ's has many benefits, such as the ones already posted in this thread. Another thing that this technique does, is increase your focus.

When you pay attention to which portion of the pocket you plan to send the object ball (as opposed to sending the cue ball to the center of the pocket), you increase your focus. When you apply that ever so slight amount of inside, you are further harnessing your mind's ability to focus. When you know you are locked on to the shot, it gives you great confidence in making the shot.

While I haven't played with this technique for but an hour total, it has great merit for those who would invest the time to use it, (if they have the skills or are willing to develop the skills to master it).

Personally speaking, I believe this is an advanced technique not easily utilized by beginning or even intermediate players. Some intermediate players may boost their game by mastering this technique, especially if they are using a non-LD shaft. I found that I had more misses with the LD shaft than with the non-LD shaft. I tried warping balls into the hole with both shafts and had good success doing so with the non-LD shaft and mediocre success warping balls into the hole with the LD shaft. Sometimes I like to test my ability to warp balls in the hole. :grin: I often wonder why I do that and sometimes write it off to some male machismo but I think deep down, I feel that if I can make a shot warping the ball into the hole, I will have greater confidence in making the object ball at slower speeds.

Like the modern day aiming systems that incorporate eyes and specific body alignment, this isn't going to make you a Pool Sensei, but learning it and mastering it will make you a better pool player, if only to broaden your horizons and teach you about the different levels of focus and how additional focus can improve your game.

The only trouble I found is that the LD shaft I am using required an additional amount of inside that I didn't like using to obtain the same amount of squirt as the non-LD shaft. I have to guess that this too would not be a problem if you got used to it. It's all about knowing your equipment.

I have no doubt that if someone used this technique for an extended period of time (and mastered it), it could easily become a permanent part of their improved game.

For those of you who know me and have followed my journey, you know that I don't hesitate to change equipment, aiming systems, or any other technique for that matter. For now, I am going to stick with the LD shaft and try to master that. Maybe the continuos testing of new methods, different techniques and new equipment is what keeps me a banger but I'm still having fun. :grin:

Good post Joey. Cj"s technique, while not new or secret like he thought it was, is but on paradigm. There are qualifying statements to it that I think many glossed over. Such as using the correct speed, not babying shots. Notice CJ hits most shots a little firm.

Another advantage is that using inside makes the shots a little closer to straight on than they were due to squirt. That actually gives you a slightly larger margin of error.

The disadvantage to it, is LD shafts, and speed. This "system" doesn't work near as well with an LD shaft, and works best at about the speed CJ is shooting most shots. Using that high a speed, inside english can be an advantage for position play. However, I feel that while you gain one thing, you lose another. You essentially are losing one half of the cue ball to use for position play.

I can easily see why CJ doesn't want to use outside at the speed he shoots shots, but you also need to be very comfortable with all the cb, not just one side of it. Using his way a lot, you tend to lose that comfort with the other half of the cb.

I feel this is definitely something worth checking out. Just remember that it is not the be-all-end-all to pool. It is but one paradigm of many. For some, such as CJ, it is a perfect fit. It suits his style of play perfectly. For others, with a different paradigm and a different style, not so much. But, there are still principles to take away from it that often apply.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Like some of the modern aiming systems in pool, this technique of CJ's has many benefits, such as the ones already posted in this thread. Another thing that this technique does, is increase your focus.

'increase your focus' That alone makes it invalueable. An increase in focus can get you to play to the best of you abilities. As I have said in earlier posts I have been doing 3 part pocketing for 46 years only I have been doing it with both inside & outside english. Doing it with just inside is an improvement (IMHO)except when you NEED to use runnning rail english.

IMHO Focus or the lack of is usually the difference between winning & losing.

JoeyA,

Thanks for doing & reporting the table work in an open minded manner.
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Although they are identical on a chalk-board, they're NOT in real life. Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots.

We're not comparing inside and outside english shots - we're comparing two identical inside english shots merely perceived in different ways.

If they're identical in the physics world, why isn't it identical during practical application?

It is identical in practical application. Only your idea about it is changed.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is my last post to you because you clearly are lost. They're not identical. Although they are identical on a chalk-board, they're NOT in real life. Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots.

When shooting inside, your brain perceives "squirt" and with outside your brain perceives "spin." The fact that you don't get that is further testament that you need to develop your concepts based on playing and not a protractor.

News bulletin to PJ: That's why SO many players fear inside english shots when compared to outside english. Their outside english make-% far exceeds inside english. I doubt there's anyone in the world who has a higher make % with inside versus outside when trying to do something w/ the CB.

If they're identical in the physics world, why isn't it identical during practical application? That's why you continue to propagate bad info and meaningless diatribe on physics facts when you really need to hit some balls in order to base your opinion.

When I first had my eye injury & was missing shots that I just did not miss, I went to all inside english & my shot making came back. Your comments made me realize that most of the shots I was missing were outside english shots. I know this the opposite of what you said but I had just had an eye injury & my visual 'perception' was OFF. Anyway to me this kind of also supports Mr. Wiley's premise.

 

[JoeyA]

Hey Joey, I would guess from here that you were applying the inside with a slight angle on your cue? I believe CJ is very straight with the entire cue slightly parallel of center and even with a z2 I have no problem getting the squirt when doing that, its when I slip into my own way applying spin that I don't get the squirt required.

CJ I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS SH**!! :wink:
But I can't help it, its like new pool, lol

The cue ball comes back off the tangent line faster than EVER. To the point where it does not make sense to my brain. Especially because we are trying to overcut the ball and my old way of thinking is hit full to pull the cb back, lol. I'm thinking the slight inside revolution combined with the draw is the reason? Not sure but I know there's a big difference.

Joe,
I most likely was applying the English with BHE so that may be the likely cause of my lesser success with the LD shaft.

Thanks Joe!

 

[JoeyA]

Good post Joey. Cj"s technique, while not new or secret like he thought it was, is but on paradigm. There are qualifying statements to it that I think many glossed over. Such as using the correct speed, not babying shots. Notice CJ hits most shots a little firm.

Another advantage is that using inside makes the shots a little closer to straight on than they were due to squirt. That actually gives you a slightly larger margin of error.

The disadvantage to it, is LD shafts, and speed. This "system" doesn't work near as well with an LD shaft, and works best at about the speed CJ is shooting most shots. Using that high a speed, inside english can be an advantage for position play. However, I feel that while you gain one thing, you lose another. You essentially are losing one half of the cue ball to use for position play.

I can easily see why CJ doesn't want to use outside at the speed he shoots shots, but you also need to be very comfortable with all the cb, not just one side of it. Using his way a lot, you tend to lose that comfort with the other half of the cb.

I feel this is definitely something worth checking out. Just remember that it is not the be-all-end-all to pool. It is but one paradigm of many. For some, such as CJ, it is a perfect fit. It suits his style of play perfectly. For others, with a different paradigm and a different style, not so much. But, there are still principles to take away from it that often apply.

See Joe Tucker's comment about LD shafts.

 

[Neil]

See Joe Tucker's comment about LD shafts.

He makes a good point, but either way you will still get less deflection or squirt.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I use a LD shaft and I've adjusted quickly (I use a Lambros LD). Although I'm still early in my experimentation overall, I've found that I might prefer the LD shaft over the standard shaft (I've tried both).

I mentioned before much of this is "style-related" and "how aggressive" the shooter might tend to be in their setup. I "might" like the LD more because it forces me to move a little further from center for the same result. I've found that really the worst thing you can do with this is actually hit dead-center; so staying clear of that isn't a bad thing in my book.

For very short high angle shots (think of behind the rack 14.1 break shots that are steep), however, the regular shaft was levels above the LD. You really need that intense, immediate squirt to offset the large amount of collision-induced throw.

For regular, traditional shots -- I "think" I might like the LD. I put that in parentheses because it's still under consideration.

I'm interested in hearing CJ's thoughts and hope he chimes in to my post. I'm still also interested in hearing his thoughts on his initial alignment outside of the pocket (if he ever varies that or only varies his tip offset).

If anyone else has put in any real time, I'd like to read their thoughts as well (even if they don't like it - why they don't and what they've found). Not interested in theory comments.

Dave

 

[swest]

Your brain perceives outside english shots DIFFERENTLY than inside english shots.

whaa??? I'm sorry, my brain does what?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I Want to MASTER One Side of the Cue Ball

See Joe Tucker's comment about LD shafts.

Everyone will have a different opinion on this because a good point is "be comfortable with the whole cue ball".....and my point is yes, comfort is essential, however, I Want to MASTER One Side of the Cue Ball....because spinning with different spins and shooting with different speeds is fine and dandy....But Everyone's Doing It, and Not Everyone is Running Out....Only One Guy Can Be The BEST :wink:

 

[AtLarge]

Dr. Dave--- you're still not understanding his technique.

He's physically aiming the ball to miss the pocket. ...

Dave, that's certainly not what CJ has instructed. After all, he calls it the 3-Part Pocket System -- side, middle, side. The physical aim is into the fuller side of the pocket. The planned amount of squirt takes the OB to the center of the pocket. A little less than the planned amount of squirt takes it to the aimed side of the pocket. A little more than the planned amount of squirt takes it to the thin side of the pocket.

To quote CJ: "if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket."

 

[SpiderWebComm]

whaa??? I'm sorry, my brain does what?

Would you like to meet up and bet on that Mr. PJ Yes Man?

Hopefully you pay bets better than PJ does. I recall he still owes a me a few G's that the bridge doesn't have to be THE pivot point (as his pal Dr. Dave later found out made made up a new term called effective-pivot-point). I think he owes me his cue too.

Funny, I've been waiting on my cash/cue to arrive for like 3 years now.

I'll probably get paid when Dr. Dave does Ekkes's shot test.

 

[swest]

Would you like to meet up and bet on that Mr. PJ Yes Man?

Hopefully you pay bets better than PJ does. I recall he still owes a me a few G's that the bridge doesn't have to be THE pivot point (as his pal Dr. Dave later found out made made up a new term called effective-pivot-point). I think he owes me his cue too.

Funny, I've been waiting on my cash/cue to arrive for like 3 years now.

Thanks for the insulting reply.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave, that's certainly not what CJ has instructed. After all, he calls it the 3-Part Pocket System -- side, middle, side. The physical aim is into the fuller side of the pocket. The planned amount of squirt takes the OB to the center of the pocket. A little less than the planned amount of squirt takes it to the aimed side of the pocket. A little more than the planned amount of squirt takes it to the thin side of the pocket.

To quote CJ: "if you play the shot off center to purposely throw the ball you can aim at the severe edge of the pocket and basically deflect it in to the center....if it doesn't deflect you will hit the part of the pocket you are aiming at, and if it deflects too much it will go into the other side of the pocket."

I've taken it as pocket facing and forcing the inside. He's said a bunch of times he's cuing only on the inside, so I'm not sure how it wouldn't deflect unless you hit center (regardless of shaft). So, I guess if you're accounting for a possible center ball hit -- that would be fine. If you're eliminating the chance of a center ball hit-- you'd have to align to the facing.