John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[CJ Wiley]

Let's just say "dogging it" is not a pleasant feeling

I use a different approach when I use a touch of inside. I don't aim and move over to cue inside. I aim for center cue ball and then move over in a parallel fashion. I don't angle the cue stick as if I'm applying english. I stroke through the shot thinking I'm hitting center ball.

After using the method for a little while, I've learned to slightly line up a fraction to the left or right of center. It is so slight, I had to stop and double check it at first. Now that I know the amount of offset, I just take a quick double check mentally before I get down on the shot that this is how I want to cue the ball.

Some posters have been saying this technique is nothing more than aiming to compensate for squirt. They are talking about something different. The cue ball still squirts/deflects, but the cue stick is not angled for english. You don't want english to affect the shot. I move over parallel to the shot and don't compensate. Too much to think about. Pull the trigger and worry about your position instead of how much squirt you're putting on the cue ball.

I stay almost on dead center cue ball. I spent some time lagging the cue ball across the table and still do until I'm locked in on this method. The cue ball only moves over a couple of inches when it returns to my tip. I do it fast and slow. The reason I do it cross table is because if you try it the length of the table and you cue low, swerve comes into play and the ball doesn't return to your tip. I noted this and saw how far the cue ball turned for future reference on long shots.

Best,
Mike

You're starting to really incorporate this "Touch" of Inside and I can tell by how you're describing it. I can tell when someone hasn't tried it and can tell if someone has and it sounds like you are starting to be able too as well....it's not that difficult, but you MUST put in the work and it certainly pays off.

Like you said it's just a fraction that works best, I call it a "hair" and describe it that no one but you should be able to tell you're doing it. And then you just simply calibrate it to hit the center of the pocket and if you miss you know exactly how to compensate.

That's one of the biggest keys, everyone misses, but only the champion speed player know EXACTLY why so they can make the right adjustments. Regular players don't know why and sometimes make the wrong adjustments.....and you can guess what happens to them. Let's just say "dogging it" is not a pleasant feeling especially when it leads to losing MANY games in a row. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[peteypooldude]

It takes me a second sometimes on some shots to recognize which side of the pocket I'm playing, once that's established I just make sure to deflect rather than spin the ball. I couldn't imagine coming through at an angle and I have little trouble when the cb and OB are only a few inches apart
I did run a 3 pack Friday night though. So it's definitely not hurt my game

 

[CJ Wiley]

You have to treat shots a few inches apart differently.

It takes me a second sometimes on some shots to recognize which side of the pocket I'm playing, once that's established I just make sure to deflect rather than spin the ball. I couldn't imagine coming through at an angle and I have little trouble when the cb and OB are only a few inches apart
I did run a 3 pack Friday night though. So it's definitely not hurt my game

You have to treat shots a few inches apart differently. There's really not enough distance to deflect so if you cue it inside you'll have more of a tendency to undercut the shot. In this case either spin it in with outside or aim at the other side of the pocket with inside or center. You'll need to feel like you're overcutting it to compensate. You need to practice this type shot a few times to get the "feel" for it.

 

[Mikjary]

You're starting to really incorporate this "Touch" of Inside and I can tell by how you're describing it. I can tell when someone hasn't tried it and can tell if someone has and it sounds like you are starting to be able too as well....it's not that difficult, but you MUST put in the work and it certainly pays off.

Like you said it's just a fraction that works best, I call it a "hair" and describe it that no one but you should be able to tell you're doing it. And then you just simply calibrate it to hit the center of the pocket and if you miss you know exactly how to compensate.

That's one of the biggest keys, everyone misses, but only the champion speed player know EXACTLY why so they can make the right adjustments. Regular players don't know why and sometimes make the wrong adjustments.....and you can guess what happens to them. Let's just say "dogging it" is not a pleasant feeling especially when it leads to losing MANY games in a row. 'The Game is the Teacher'

This is the biggest part of the method for me. I watched Dave Yeager barbecue all comers with this stroke. Nobody could figure out what he was doing to run 6+ packages on the big table. To make it even harder to see, Dave would cue with outside and cross over the cue ball to this inside hit. We thought it was outside spin with an unknown stroking element.

I noticed it with the Pinoys in later years. I just figured they had that terrific stroke and I never would. Thanks again, CJ for the insight. My slightly angled cue and close to center hits will be hard to pick up.:grin-devilish:

Best,
Mike

 

[cookie man]

It takes me a second sometimes on some shots to recognize which side of the pocket I'm playing, once that's established I just make sure to deflect rather than spin the ball. I couldn't imagine coming through at an angle and I have little trouble when the cb and OB are only a few inches apart
I did run a 3 pack Friday night though. So it's definitely not hurt my game

I don't like it, makes the game too easy, and I get bored,lol.
Pro-one with a touch of inside= easy.

 

[Mikjary]

I know where they're going. You don't?

pj
chgo

Try the method for a period of time. Then compare the angle of your stick to your original method. You will see a much larger angle with your original method.

Also, the point of contact of your tip on the cue ball and how it reacts after the collision will be different. You will be at a half tip or more. The throw on the object ball at certain angles will also be different. Swerve may also be apparent due to the additional spin you impart.

My cue is slightly angled. Slightly. And I am aiming a hair off center. Hair. Are we still doing the exact same thing?

If in doubt, refer to the first line in my directions for clarity. If you do not have any interest in the method, I will understand your reservations. If you try it and would like to discuss it, a multitude of lurkers including myself would be more than interested. Really. Your opinion would be very insightful, I'm sure.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Try the method for a period of time. Then compare the angle of your stick to your original method. You will see a much larger angle with your original method.

Also, the point of contact of your tip on the cue ball and how it reacts after the collision will be different. You will be at a half tip or more. The throw on the object ball at certain angles will also be different. Swerve may also be apparent due to the additional spin you impart.

My cue is slightly angled. Slightly. And I am aiming a hair off center. Hair. Are we still doing the exact same thing?

If in doubt, refer to the first line in my directions for clarity. If you do not have any interest in the method, I will understand your reservations. If you try it and would like to discuss it, a multitude of lurkers including myself would be more than interested. Really. Your opinion would be very insightful, I'm sure.

Best,
Mike

Using the same stick, of course...

To make the OB hit the same target (center pocket) using the same tip offset and same speed, we must orient the stick at the same angle. How we get it there and what we think we're doing are irrelevant to that identical outcome.

When we hit the CB offcenter it goes where it goes (and the OB goes where it goes) according to the ordinary rules of offcenter hits no matter what we're trying to accomplish. Adopting an unorthodox view of how the shot is aimed doesn't change anything - your results and mine are determined by simple unchanging mechanics, not by our thoughts.

If we're both successful at hitting center pocket and...

I aim at center pocket, then add "a hair" of side, then adjust the stick's angle for squirt

but

you aim to the side of center pocket, then add "a hair" of side moving your stick parallel

then

the amount you aim to the side of center pocket must be identical with the amount I adjust the stick's angle.

We're doing exactly the same thing, just with the steps in a different order. Nothing has changed with respect to how we ultimately aim or hit the shot, and nothing has changed with respect to any margin of error for the shot, and the cue ball will act exactly the way it always does with "a hair" of side.

pj
chgo

I haven't changed anything I've been saying. I just hope we've come to a place in the conversation where you're able to see what I mean.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

PJ. Trying to follow what you're saying...what about cue elevation? You said both approaches must have the same adjustment. Are you assuming same elevation angle for both? Otherwise, not sure you can say "must."

Next, unrelated question: are inside/outside SIT effects equal for a given angle? I'm asking because I'm not sure. Logically, it's hard to imagine they could be. If that's the case, I'm also questioning the word "must."

I'm getting ready to tee off...looking forward to reading this in between holes. Thx in advance for a friendly answer.

Looking at variations of what CJ presented...

Aiming a hair thin with center and using CIT to use the whole pocket

Aiming a hair thick/thin (depending on your english technique) and using outside to spin the ball in to use the whole pocket

Or CJ's move..

Only CJ's technique allows for CB control with an accelerating stroke under pressure. That seems to be getting missed since many are hung up on the pocketing part only. Hold is easier to predict than go.

I can't wait for CJ's next concept...



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[peteypooldude]

One of the things I like best about CJs method is KNOWING exactly which side of the cb I'm going to hit. If I Cue dead center cb I may be off on one side or the other which can change a lot of things.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ. Trying to follow what you're saying...

Yeah, I probably went a little long there. Trying to cover too many bases.

what about cue elevation? You said both approaches must have the same adjustment. Are you assuming same elevation angle for both?

Of course. Same everything except what we say we're "aiming" at.

Next, unrelated question: are inside/outside SIT effects equal for a given angle?

Generally, inside spin increases rubbing speed and outside decreases it, so they create different amounts of throw (and spin changes on both balls).

Logically, it's hard to imagine they could be. If that's the case, I'm also questioning the word "must."

I don't follow. We would only compare shots with the same kind of offset (inside or outside).

Only CJ's technique allows for CB control with an accelerating stroke under pressure.

I don't see why. Every experienced player knows how to use a small amount of inside spin to kill collision-transferred CB spin and also what effect hitting harder has. Why do we need a new marketing vocabulary for it?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

petey:
One of the things I like best about CJs method is KNOWING exactly which side of the cb I'm going to hit. If I Cue dead center cb I may be off on one side or the other which can change a lot of things.

This is another misperception. You can only be sure you're going to hit the left side of the CB (for example) if you hit far enough to the left of center so that your normal stroke errors to the right will also land left of center. In other words, if your normal stroke errors are more than "a hair" one way or the other, you have to aim more than "a hair" offcenter. Choosing to hit one side of center doesn't eliminate your stroke errors in the other direction - it just shifts where they'll land. But even more importantly, even if you're successful in hitting exclusively on one side of center, that doesn't change the effect of your stroke errors at all - they'll still produce exactly the same kind and size of shot misses, both left and right of your intended target.

Here's how I understand what's happening when you notice pocketing improvement with this technique:

If choosing to hit slightly one side of center makes you pay closer attention to exactly where you're hitting the CB, then it will probably reduce the range of your stroke errors - but you don't need to change your aiming technique or vocabulary for that. Just be more precise with your tip placement.

You also don't need to change your technique or vocabulary to aim at specific parts of the pocket. Just be more precise about that.

I think more attention to precision is the simple principle at the heart of improvements people see with this. That would be all good if it wasn't described in terms that uneducate players about how things actually work and if it didn't encourage abandoning tried and true principles of good play.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

This is another misperception. You can only be sure you're going to hit the left side of the CB (for example) if you hit far enough to the left of center so that your normal stroke errors to the right will also land left of center. In other words, if your normal stroke errors are more than "a hair" one way or the other, you have to aim more than "a hair" offcenter. Choosing to hit one side of center doesn't eliminate your stroke errors in the other direction - it just shifts where they'll land. But even more importantly, even if you're successful in hitting exclusively on one side of center, that doesn't change the effect of your stroke errors at all - they'll still produce exactly the same kind and size of shot misses, both left and right of your intended target.

Here's how I understand what's happening when you notice pocketing improvement with this:

If choosing to hit slightly one side of center makes you pay closer attention to exactly where you're hitting the CB, then it will probably reduce the range of your stroke errors - but you don't need to change your aiming technique or vocabulary for that. Just be more precise with your tip placement.

You also don't need to change your technique or vocabulary to aim at specific parts of the pocket. Just be more precise about that.

I think more attention to precision is the simple principle at the heart of improvements people see with this. That would be all good if it wasn't described in terms that uneducate players about how things actually work.

pj
chgo

I don't see how aiming at the center of a pocket helps a person to be more precise than aiming at a particular portion of the pocket.

By using the center of the pocket as your target area for the object ball, you are setting yourself up for lazy focus, imo.

 

[peteypooldude]

My hair off center maybe a little larger hair than some are describing. However I am using a predator cue and that could be a difference . I am not spinning the CB though. I just kept setting up balls until I had the feel of deflecting the CB rather than applying spin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't see how aiming at the center of a pocket helps a person to be more precise than aiming at a particular portion of the pocket.

The center of the pocket is a "particular portion" of it, just like the outer portions. The point is you don't need to limit yourself to the full side of the pocket and adopt a new aiming/cueing technique and vocabulary to aim more precisely - you just need to do it.

By using the center of the pocket as your target area for the object ball, you are setting yourself up for lazy focus, imo.

I agree, if you always only aim at center pocket you tend to get lazy and just aim "to make it". You should aim for a precise part of the pocket, whether it's center or elsewhere. I practice by aiming at one pocket facing or the other just to avoid getting lazy - but I don't need to change my approach to aiming or using sidespin to do that. I can just add the precision without subtracting anything.

By the way, it strikes me that adding a fixed amount of side to change the OB's path "toward" center pocket is less precise than aiming at center pocket (or any other part of the pocket) with the right amount of aim adjustment for squirt, and it's "lazier" to use one-size-fits-all squirt adjustment.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

What PJ is refering to is known as a double cross in golf. The golfer sets up for a fade from left to right & then does not execute the delivery of the club face into the ball for the fade & the ball goes straight or even moves farther left. It is RARE that any accomplished golfer does that, but it does happen.

 

[Mikjary]

With CJ's method, for a shot to the right, you aim at the left side of the pocket. You are aiming with no english or compensation for squirt. It has nothing to do with aiming better. If that's your problem, you need to deal with it first.

Cue a slight amount to the right of center in a parallel fashion. The small amount of squirt should take the object ball to center pocket. A bad stroke may cause you to hit to the left and contact the cue ball center. This is where you originally aimed, so you will make the ball in this side of the pocket. You may cue too far to the right causing a thinner cut and the object ball to be made in the opposite side of the pocket you originally aimed.

Best,
Mike

 

[peteypooldude]

With CJ's method, for a shot to the right, you aim at the left side of the pocket. You are aiming with no english or compensation for squirt. It has nothing to do with aiming better. If that's your problem, you need to deal with it first.

Cue a slight amount to the right of center in a parallel fashion. The small amount of squirt should take the object ball to center pocket. A bad stroke may cause you to hit to the left and contact the cue ball center. This is where you originally aimed, so you will make the ball in this side of the pocket. You may cue too far to the right causing a thinner cut and the object ball to be made in the opposite side of the pocket you originally aimed.

Best,
Mike

This is exactly what I get out of it, I guess it should be worded one way and one way only. Half of this thread is just word twisting and a chance for a few to show off their wide vocabulary. It shouldnt take a college education to describe such a simple technique (not u mike) IMO Mike has a great simple description in this post

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With CJ's method, for a shot to the right, you aim at the left side of the pocket. You are aiming with no english or compensation for squirt. It has nothing to do with aiming better. If that's your problem, you need to deal with it first.

Cue a slight amount to the right of center in a parallel fashion. The small amount of squirt should take the object ball to center pocket. A bad stroke may cause you to hit to the left and contact the cue ball center. This is where you originally aimed, so you will make the ball in this side of the pocket. You may cue too far to the right causing a thinner cut and the object ball to be made in the opposite side of the pocket you originally aimed.

So:

perfect stroke = center pocket
bad stroke left = left 1/3 of pocket
bad stroke right = right 1/3 of pocket

I thought having "only" 1/3 of the pocket on each side of the "perfect stroke" target is what this technique is supposed to improve upon...?

pj <- still not seeing the difference
chgo

 

[8pack]

So:

perfect stroke = center pocket
bad stroke left = left 1/3 of pocket
bad stroke right = right 1/3 of pocket

I thought having "only" 1/3 of the pocket on each side of the "perfect stroke" target is what this technique is supposed to improve upon...?

pj <- still not seeing the difference
chgo

I was thinking the same thing.You aim for center wouldn't this be the best move being that margin of error is on both sides.
But I don't feel that's what this Ideal(touch of inside) is about.

 

[peteypooldude]

If your cutting a ball to the left and you aim it to play the right side of the pocket then there is no adjustment. Just cue with a touch of left whith an accelerating stroke. If you don't cue far enough left for the CB to deflect you still make the ball. A little to much and you still make the ball