joint and butt material

[danutz]

No! You got the right stuff. Juma is not as soft as Meucci material, MPI, PVC or ABS, but it is still a softer material as far as the hit and feel it produces. It does play a good bit softer than linen phenolic or linen based melamine. As far as Black Linen Phenolic getting blacker when finishing it, the secret is the longer the finish stays wet the blacker it becomes. Fast drying fiinish like super glue and some others will not allow it to darken up to that jet black look.

Thanks for the info Chris, juma is definately not for me then. The one ferrule i tried, i was so unimpressed with it, i cut it off. I really don't see what all the hoopla is about it, i think it would be good for inlays, but no way i'd use it for joints, or ferrules. If it's softer than phenolic, i have no use for it, with the exception of delrin buttcaps once in awhile.

I've been very pleased with the double black phenolic from atlas, the natural is a whole nother story tho:frown: One size will be nice and tan, when cut to size, the other will be yellow

 

[qbilder]

Thanks for the info Chris, juma is definately not for me then. The one ferrule i tried, i was so unimpressed with it, i cut it off. I really don't see what all the hoopla is about it, i think it would be good for inlays, but no way i'd use it for joints, or ferrules. If it's softer than phenolic, i have no use for it, with the exception of delrin buttcaps once in awhile.

A few questions come to mind when reading this. And it's nothing harsh or negative by any means, so please don't take this as negative criticism. But how many cues have you built? How much experience do you actually have? How much testing did you do with the material to draw such conclusion? How are you installing it, with what glue, and what length?

And as for joint collars, time & experience will make it clear to you that solid construction makes the difference in good solid joint work, not the joint collar material. The only way the material should have any noticeable affect as joint collars would be if it is solid across the face, separating the shaft wood from the butt wood. Once the cue is screwed together tight, and the shaft & butt woods are in direct contact, the collar material shouldn't be affecting the hit to the point where you can feel the difference.

When I tried Juma as a ferrule, the only difference I noticed was the sound. It didn't seem to hit softer than anything else, just not as noisy. Melamines are the noisy ones. My ferrules thread onto a 3/8" tenon and are through ferrules, meaning I glue the tips to wood. Capped ferrules with small diameter tenons leaves much of the hit & feel of the cue at the mercy of the material. That's fine if you choose to go that route. To each their own. But having experience & understanding of different materials & methods will open your options infinitely. I relate it to driving a Mustang, thinking it's the best sports car on Earth, never knowing that a Ferrari even exists. If you know & have experience with all different varieties, and choose to use a 5/16-18 capped ferrule, then it's your choice & that's fine. But do yourself a favor & experiment outside of the "norm" box. You will be surprised how vastly diverse & interesting cue making can be.

I keep shafts around that I change ferrules & tips on almost constantly, just because I want to learn. I have done this for a decade, and probably will forever. I never get tired of learning new things, experimenting, trying to advance the cue as a tool. The biggest mistake I see with builders new & old is putting walls up around their protocol & never stepping outside of it. Just because everybody else does it doesn't means it's best for you. Just because it works well for you doesn't mean something better isn't right around the corner if only you'd try.

 

[danutz]

Eric, i've only been building for a short time, and doing repairs for a couple years before that. I've been playing since the late 80's tho, and it's from my playing experience that i know what kind of materials i like in a cue, having played with hundreds of them over the years. I think that solid materials, make a solid cue, and no offense, but i dissagree wholeheartedly about joint materials not impacting the hit. Of course they do. as you said, it's the sum of all parts. Putting a melamine, or micarta ferrule on a meucci, is not gonna make it play like a SW, even if they had the same taper, they just have too many soft components in their cues, and the difference between an ivory joint, and a wood to wood, or steel is obvious, to me at least. Like you, i like to try new things, but i already know that i don't like ANY soft materials in my cue, wether i made it, or bought it. Bumper excluded, of course. I will definately try any, and all materials of the hard variety tho, i promise. The way i see it is, if a player wants a soft hittng cue, they can buy a meucci, or one of the hundreds, or thousands of imports out there. They'll get no competition from me, lol.
So, are people still cruisin sonic, throwin keggers at white sands, hangin out at the space museum, and camping out up in Cloudcroft like when i was there in alamo? Good times, good times:thumbup: Huntin jackalopes was always alot of fun too:thumbup:

 

[rhncue]

Thanks for the info Chris, juma is definately not for me then. The one ferrule i tried, i was so unimpressed with it, i cut it off. I really don't see what all the hoopla is about it, i think it would be good for inlays, but no way i'd use it for joints, or ferrules. If it's softer than phenolic, i have no use for it, with the exception of delrin buttcaps once in awhile.

I've been very pleased with the double black phenolic from atlas, the natural is a whole nother story tho:frown: One size will be nice and tan, when cut to size, the other will be yellow

Your happy with the Atlas phenolic? I can't believe any human would say such a thing. It's apparent you have never had the chance to use some quality phenolic as it's been going down hill for a number of years now. It now has so little resin in it that it's so porous as being almost impossible to fill the pores. I've got a tube that has so little resin that it won't even hold together! When I try to part a ring or joint off of the tube you can see where the layers are coming apart like the wood shavings when you use a pencil sharpener. When I peel these inner layers out the ring the I/D goes from .625 to around .750. The stuff is just absolutely useless imo.

Dick

 

[cuejo]

Anyone want to share a better linen tube supplier?
Pm of course

 

[qbilder]

Eric, i've only been building for a short time, and doing repairs for a couple years before that. I've been playing since the late 80's tho, and it's from my playing experience that i know what kind of materials i like in a cue, having played with hundreds of them over the years. I think that solid materials, make a solid cue, and no offense, but i dissagree wholeheartedly about joint materials not impacting the hit. Of course they do. as you said, it's the sum of all parts. Putting a melamine, or micarta ferrule on a meucci, is not gonna make it play like a SW, even if they had the same taper, they just have too many soft components in their cues, and the difference between an ivory joint, and a wood to wood, or steel is obvious, to me at least. Like you, i like to try new things, but i already know that i don't like ANY soft materials in my cue, wether i made it, or bought it. Bumper excluded, of course. I will definately try any, and all materials of the hard variety tho, i promise. The way i see it is, if a player wants a soft hittng cue, they can buy a meucci, or one of the hundreds, or thousands of imports out there. They'll get no competition from me, lol.

Well, if you know it, you know it. Talk to me in five years, if you're still making cues, and i'll remind you of what you just wrote. You may have a different opinion then.

[/QOUTE]So, are people still cruisin sonic, throwin keggers at white sands, hangin out at the space museum, and camping out up in Cloudcroft like when i was there in alamo? Good times, good times:thumbup: Huntin jackalopes was always alot of fun too:thumbup:[/QUOTE]

No keggers at white sands anymore, but yeah the kids still cruise sonic.


I sure wish I knew everything "I knew" when I was new. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

 

[Canadian cue]

Your happy with the Atlas phenolic? I can't believe any human would say such a thing. It's apparent you have never had the chance to use some quality phenolic as it's been going down hill for a number of years now. It now has so little resin in it that it's so porous as being almost impossible to fill the pores. I've got a tube that has so little resin that it won't even hold together! When I try to part a ring or joint off of the tube you can see where the layers are coming apart like the wood shavings when you use a pencil sharpener. When I peel these inner layers out the ring the I/D goes from .625 to around .750. The stuff is just absolutely useless imo.

Dick

I believe it is because the material made for the billiard industry does not have to meet up to mechanical specs. The only criteria is how it looks. I have purchased black phenolic from other sources and it cut way different. It was not as black though..why? Because colour was secondary to mechanical properties. I have said this before but why is it that all other industries demand specs for the material they are supplied but this industry doesn't. It is all trial and error and word of mouth. If cuemakers demanded that the suppliers provided mechanical specs the quality issue would no longer be an issue. Just a thought

 

[danutz]

Your happy with the Atlas phenolic? I can't believe any human would say such a thing. It's apparent you have never had the chance to use some quality phenolic as it's been going down hill for a number of years now. It now has so little resin in it that it's so porous as being almost impossible to fill the pores. I've got a tube that has so little resin that it won't even hold together! When I try to part a ring or joint off of the tube you can see where the layers are coming apart like the wood shavings when you use a pencil sharpener. When I peel these inner layers out the ring the I/D goes from .625 to around .750. The stuff is just absolutely useless imo.

Dick

I must have got lucky, this stuff is black thru and thru, and after facing looks better than most others i've seen, when they were wet. Not porous either, in comparison. Definately no shortage of resin in this stuff.

Eric, i'm not sure if i'll still be making them in 5 years, but i will be making them up till the day i die. The bug has firmly taken hold:grin: i'll also be the first to admit that i don't know it all, or even a whole lot, but the things i do know, i believe pretty strongly in. The joint material belief has'nt changed in the past 15-20 years, just got stronger. I would say that most may not know the difference, but most are not real pool players either, just bangers. They like drawing their ball 3 rails for shape, loadin whitey up with english, etc. I also know most of them like soft hitting cues, because they're easy to load up, without a real stroke. So, if i cared about trying to get rich, or sell a million cues, the smart thing would be to build them that way. Unfortunately for me, and "most", lol, i could care less about any of that crap. I'm building my cues, my way, which is not to say original to me either, just that the way i want to build them, where i'm happy with them. If no one but me likes them, that's fine too. Just means i'll have more cues in by bag to choose from:thumbup:

 

[3kushn]

I believe it is because the material made for the billiard industry does not have to meet up to mechanical specs. The only criteria is how it looks. I have purchased black phenolic from other sources and it cut way different. It was not as black though..why? Because colour was secondary to mechanical properties. I have said this before but why is it that all other industries demand specs for the material they are supplied but this industry doesn't. It is all trial and error and word of mouth. If cuemakers demanded that the suppliers provided mechanical specs the quality issue would no longer be an issue. Just a thought

I'm not a cuemaker. Just interested in the topic. I am although well versed in tools, supplies, and distribution.

I don't think you'll get far with demanding anything from a distributor unless theres a vast number of you that complain of quality issues. Their sales numbers say they're doing the right thing with the right products. Believe me your Distributor wants you to be happy.

What I'd suggest is figuring out your distributor suppliers and talking to them, tell them what you want. Consistant Color, machinability, quality, finish ..................... Then get their recomendation. If your order isn't large enough for them to take, then first of all ask for a sample piece. 6 inches of 9/16" or 4" of 1-1/2" or whatever you guys use. It's likely they will send that. If it meets your satisfaction ask your distributor to get it for you. If there's a minimum run then go back to your friends in the business and pool an order. If you do that a good distributor will take notice. A bad one will ignore it and wait for the next pooled order. Either way you get what you want. And eventually it will be on the shelf when you order it.

 

[qbilder]

Eric, i'm not sure if i'll still be making them in 5 years, but i will be making them up till the day i die. The bug has firmly taken hold:grin: i'll also be the first to admit that i don't know it all, or even a whole lot, but the things i do know, i believe pretty strongly in. The joint material belief has'nt changed in the past 15-20 years, just got stronger. I would say that most may not know the difference, but most are not real pool players either, just bangers. They like drawing their ball 3 rails for shape, loadin whitey up with english, etc. I also know most of them like soft hitting cues, because they're easy to load up, without a real stroke. So, if i cared about trying to get rich, or sell a million cues, the smart thing would be to build them that way. Unfortunately for me, and "most", lol, i could care less about any of that crap. I'm building my cues, my way, which is not to say original to me either, just that the way i want to build them, where i'm happy with them. If no one but me likes them, that's fine too. Just means i'll have more cues in by bag to choose from:thumbup:

5 years isn't long. It's like 6 months in cue maker time :speechless:

 

[Paul Dayton]

Before cuemakers could demand specific properties from manufacturers they would have to be ready to order and pay for an industrial size run of the material as well as come to agreement among themselves what exactly they all want that is the same. That isn't likely as some like one thing others like another and everyone would have to be willing to buy hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of a single material.

The only stuff I've run into in the last 23 years that is gone and I really miss is grise phenolic. There are suitable substitutes out there for everything else.

 

[Canadian cue]

Before cuemakers could demand specific properties from manufacturers they would have to be ready to order and pay for an industrial size run of the material as well as come to agreement among themselves what exactly they all want that is the same. That isn't likely as some like one thing others like another and everyone would have to be willing to buy hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of a single material.

The only stuff I've run into in the last 23 years that is gone and I really miss is grise phenolic. There are suitable substitutes out there for everything else.

You dont have to ask for custom specs they just have to specify what they are already making. That way it would have to be consistent. It is no different than having a dimension or a tolerance on a drawing. By them having no specs the product can meet a wide set of perameters as long as it resembles what they advertise it as.
http://www.atlasfibre.com/specifications/material-specifications.html
Why does the parent company provide specs for the material they sell? Because that is the standard. Any company using there material needs that info in order to properly engineer any kind of product. You cant build with mystery material. Why is it the billiard industry doesnt demand the same standard? Is what we build not important enough to demand knowing what the material we use is?

 

[JoeyInCali]

You dont have to ask for custom specs they just have to specify what they are already making. That way it would have to be consistent. It is no different than having a dimension or a tolerance on a drawing. By them having no specs the product can meet a wide set of perameters as long as it resembles what they advertise it as.
http://www.atlasfibre.com/specifications/material-specifications.html
Why does the parent company provide specs for the material they sell? Because that is the standard. Any company using there material needs that info in order to properly engineer any kind of product. You cant build with mystery material. Why is it the billiard industry doesnt demand the same standard? Is what we build not important enough to demand knowing what the material we use is?

We're not.
They don't care about cosmetics.
They couldn't care less if the tan phenolic is ugly tan or brown.
IF they want to switch to an epoxy with longer pot life to save money, they will so long as the end product meets the specs but looks like sh a it when machined.
Back in 2001 I was told by the Atlas rep double black was going to change.
He said they're changing manufacturer.
Sure enough, it became ugly after that.
I'm glad I have a bunch now.
I have a very limited amount of dark brown phens.

 

[conetip]

One of the difficulties for the manufacturer is that the cue buying public are alot more fussy than what they were a few years ago.
With resins, plastic or otherwise, the more pigment used to create the colour, the greater the adverse effect is on the mechanical properties.
However, a high concentration of pigment should not be used as an excuse for a low resin to fiber ratio.
I have seen situations where the resin will not wet out properly or in the case of plastics , where the fiber reinforcing material did not have the appropriate sizing to allow the plastic to bind correctly to the fiber.
In either case, the internal process and quality control should pick up on these type of events before the full run is complete and certainly before material/products are shipped to customers.
Neil