I'd like to see what kind of shafts come out from selected 5/4 boards.
I bet they're really nice and straight grain b/c you have so much to play with.
I bet they're really nice and straight grain b/c you have so much to play with.
joint pin question
- Thread starter luke
- Start date
:idea2:
Hi,
You should go back to playing your video games because you have no basis from which to comment here. Unless you have gone from video games to cue making!
Maybe I am wrong. What is your story? I am all ears.
Your not my english teacher and I type pretty fast pilgrim. People get the point. Based on what you have posted, you don't have much of a clue concerning the subject matter and it is easier for you to attack my grammar and usage. Circular arguments always go in ways that change the subject. I stay of task. If you don't believe that you can go back and re read my posts to find I have been singing the same tune for many years. Why, because I follow procedures that obtain the results I aspire to gain. My propriety procedures.
I must admit I am not that good at videoing off my cell phone as this was my first attempt to take and post videos on AZ. When compared to DZ's Hi Res deal and obvious use of a tripod, I need to work on those presentations as exhibits.
BTW, maybe you should learn how to read because I said my test rolling table was 54" off the ground elevation. Don't have too many tables to set my phone on in the five foot tall range.
I don't think sharing things with someone like you matters much anyway. If you don't like the way I express myself, just refrain from reading my posts.
You call me and idiot and that is your right to express an opinion. I am ok with that 100%. That said, what do you call someone who argues with an individual that they them self declares an idiot. I will let you fill in the blanks??????????:idea2:
Your commenting on a pin install brings absolutely nothing to the discussion if you have never installed a pin your self. So whats up?
JMO,
Rick
Hi,
You should go back to playing your video games because you have no basis from which to comment here. Unless you have gone from video games to cue making!
Maybe I am wrong. What is your story? I am all ears.
Your not my english teacher and I type pretty fast pilgrim. People get the point. Based on what you have posted, you don't have much of a clue concerning the subject matter and it is easier for you to attack my grammar and usage. Circular arguments always go in ways that change the subject. I stay of task. If you don't believe that you can go back and re read my posts to find I have been singing the same tune for many years. Why, because I follow procedures that obtain the results I aspire to gain. My propriety procedures.
I must admit I am not that good at videoing off my cell phone as this was my first attempt to take and post videos on AZ. When compared to DZ's Hi Res deal and obvious use of a tripod, I need to work on those presentations as exhibits.
BTW, maybe you should learn how to read because I said my test rolling table was 54" off the ground elevation. Don't have too many tables to set my phone on in the five foot tall range.
I don't think sharing things with someone like you matters much anyway. If you don't like the way I express myself, just refrain from reading my posts.
You call me and idiot and that is your right to express an opinion. I am ok with that 100%. That said, what do you call someone who argues with an individual that they them self declares an idiot. I will let you fill in the blanks??????????:idea2:
Your commenting on a pin install brings absolutely nothing to the discussion if you have never installed a pin your self. So whats up?
JMO,
Rick
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A lot of assumptions are being made by you. You think I've never installed a joint pin? I laugh at you. I don't make my living off doing this work, so I don't see the need to brag about what I do. I'm not here to showcase my abilities, I'm here to tell you that words don't make you smart. You've made essays on this subject when a one paragraph response would suffice. You seem stuck up on your table being so tall. Must be hard for someone as smart as you to not be able to figure out a solution. Got a broom handle? Use that as a stabilizer.
As your response have clearly shown, you don't care what anyone else says. You've decided that your way is the best. No matter how many facts get shown as to why your methods are flawed. You still don't believe what others say can even be true. Even when there is no need for you to respond, you reply with an essay. I don't want to take the time to write an essay response so you'll understand the subject matter once and for all. But there has to be a point in your life that'll allow you to absorb what we have said. We asked questions about your method. You avoid those questions, and even responded angrily at the prospect that you might be doing something wrong.
Do us all a favor. Next time you want to reply to a topic, don't write an essay. If you can't explain what you want to say in less than two paragraphs. Don't bother replying at all. You and your truncated pin have told us all we need to know. You're wrong.
Hi,
Boy am I glad you got that off your chest. Hope your felling better now.
Give me one specific example where I did not respond and I will respond in kind. Thank you.
I especially like the part where you say "do us a favor" asking me to skip the essay or long winded posts like you are some type of spokesman for everyone here. Not! And you tell me that stuff while your blasting off your own long winded post. Personally I like reading long posts with lots of info. It is like having some meat on the bone. Short glib statements are devoid of the details. Boring!
Now that we know you are a cue maker who installs pins and other stuff, don't be afraid to get technical as we all can learn if we open our broomsticks ........... or I mean our minds.
You wanted to be my English teacher now let me be your math teacher:
Over 7500 visits to this hot thread and there have been some people who have argued with me about certin things. That's cool and what forums are good for. The interaction of thoughts and ideas. Now how many people do you think PMed me or called me with their support of my methods? It blew my mind that's for sure.
So if you want to join the crowd that ships cues with taper rolls and only wants to make a good cue that people will beg for even after spreading dog doo doo on it, I applaud your sense of style and humanity. Right!
This forum could be such a great place to share ideas but the "ID" factor has gotten in the way too many times. We should all strive to listen and respond with an open mind.
JMO,
Ricky
PS. The shaft tapering system I shared with the forum which you refer to as Flawed is the same concept Ray Schuler used to make his shafts for over 30 years of production. Ray is in a Hall of Fame as a cue maker. You need to read opposing view arguments thoroughly before you opine your uninformed view.
Keep practicing your pin installs and your video games. LOL
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IF there are so many in support of your method(s), why have they not come forward to support you? I know, I know, they are afraid of the flames but there are strength in numbers, right?
Come one. Come all. We are all mad here....
Ryan,
And yes, I am not going to reveal the names of people who contacted me privatly but I can tell you they all echoed the same sediment. I don't post on AZ anymore because of the type of attitudes that were presented in this thread. Disagreeing with someone is ok but being disrespectfull or condescending breeds disrespect and further condescending attitudes in counterpoint. To that end I am also guilty.
So what is your take on Ray Schuler's shafts and matching joint concentricity on all his cues.
Ray Ray's shop was 1/2 mile from my house and Ray's best friend, pantographer artist / designer cue maker is in my shop over 10 hrs per week just hanging out. The amount of time I spent visiting Ray's shop is augmented with the vast amount of information Stew has shared with me and many others here concerning his many years at Ray's shop as well as Bert Schrager's shop on the west coast.
I had 84 APA and BCA teams at my Billirads Cafe and there were a ton of Schuler Cues I worked on here in Schuler country. I spun a ton of his shafts and I don't think he had any problems taper turning his cues on the pilot nor do I with my concentricity device pin which does the same thing only I have a flat faced big pin.
I said more than once on this thread that there is a lot if talent here and I can respectfully disagree with the 5 or 6 that have the talent but no experience with the method. The rest are just people who want to pile on that don't know a tail stock from a taper bar but are monkey see monkey do.
Ryan, I have showed videos of a typical shaft being tapered, spinning between centers, roll tested 4 different ways. Also I showed a typical pin Run out a less than .0003 and indicated the face in my buck chuck showing Zero without even a tremble on the needle on the .0005 dial.
Add to that I have personally invited anyone who travels to Chicago in the future to visit my shop and have lunch. What more can I say or do.
So you can believe me or you are left with name calling if you wish to imply that I am a Lier.
Now the ball is in you court Ryan. Sock it to me baby and let it all hang out.
There is nothing you can say or do to hurt my reputation as a technician or a business person. I was making my bones and established a high level of credability as a person with you were in grammer school.
Let me ask you this Ryan. Do you ship Rat cues with taper rolls and think that it is wrong for a customer to question a loose fitting pin and a shaft that is off by a credit card width in the middle of the shaft when rolled?
If your answer is yes, then we agree on something. If you choose not to answer it will reveal a lot about you in my view and judgment.
I think you know where I stand on that question! As I said, it is all about standards. That is something we as cue makers have total control over.
JMO,
Rick
And yes, I am not going to reveal the names of people who contacted me privatly but I can tell you they all echoed the same sediment. I don't post on AZ anymore because of the type of attitudes that were presented in this thread. Disagreeing with someone is ok but being disrespectfull or condescending breeds disrespect and further condescending attitudes in counterpoint. To that end I am also guilty.
So what is your take on Ray Schuler's shafts and matching joint concentricity on all his cues.
Ray Ray's shop was 1/2 mile from my house and Ray's best friend, pantographer artist / designer cue maker is in my shop over 10 hrs per week just hanging out. The amount of time I spent visiting Ray's shop is augmented with the vast amount of information Stew has shared with me and many others here concerning his many years at Ray's shop as well as Bert Schrager's shop on the west coast.
I had 84 APA and BCA teams at my Billirads Cafe and there were a ton of Schuler Cues I worked on here in Schuler country. I spun a ton of his shafts and I don't think he had any problems taper turning his cues on the pilot nor do I with my concentricity device pin which does the same thing only I have a flat faced big pin.
I said more than once on this thread that there is a lot if talent here and I can respectfully disagree with the 5 or 6 that have the talent but no experience with the method. The rest are just people who want to pile on that don't know a tail stock from a taper bar but are monkey see monkey do.
Ryan, I have showed videos of a typical shaft being tapered, spinning between centers, roll tested 4 different ways. Also I showed a typical pin Run out a less than .0003 and indicated the face in my buck chuck showing Zero without even a tremble on the needle on the .0005 dial.
Add to that I have personally invited anyone who travels to Chicago in the future to visit my shop and have lunch. What more can I say or do.
So you can believe me or you are left with name calling if you wish to imply that I am a Lier.
Now the ball is in you court Ryan. Sock it to me baby and let it all hang out.
There is nothing you can say or do to hurt my reputation as a technician or a business person. I was making my bones and established a high level of credability as a person with you were in grammer school.
Let me ask you this Ryan. Do you ship Rat cues with taper rolls and think that it is wrong for a customer to question a loose fitting pin and a shaft that is off by a credit card width in the middle of the shaft when rolled?
If your answer is yes, then we agree on something. If you choose not to answer it will reveal a lot about you in my view and judgment.
I think you know where I stand on that question! As I said, it is all about standards. That is something we as cue makers have total control over.
JMO,
Rick
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Credibility , not credability.
It's grammAr, not grammer .
Sediment ? You mean sentiments?
Rick, did you serve as an apprentice to Ray Schuler ? Do you know his processes and his reasoning behind them ?
Thanks for the compliment Dave. I like John Barton.
I have only been banned once. Learned my lesson!
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No and yes.
Rick, I did not ask you to disclose any names. I asked why those people have not come forward. You have been called some names in this thread but not by the people who have shown you actual evidence on why threading the shaft early can create unnecessary issues/risk. These people have made the mistakes AND have built more shafts than you ever will. You do not seem to care about their "observations" but base your methods on Schuler's methods. The fact that you cannot acknowledge the risk you are taking is scary but go ahead and bend your brim.
No one has said you cannot make a straight shaft. No one has said you cannot make a true interface between shaft and butt. No one has said you cannot make a cue that rolls true on a table, on a rail, on a boat, with a whale. The reason you have not observed the issues and potential risk, is that you have not made as many shafts as these other builders who argue against your methods. I easily build 500 shafts a year and have built well over 3000 cues with no helpers. BUT you don't want to hear MY observations. You always talk about the exchange of ideas and helping other builders but do you actually believe that? Do you listen to others or just vomit your procedures so you seem/feel smarter or better than you actually are?
No one has said you cannot make a straight shaft. No one has said you cannot make a true interface between shaft and butt. No one has said you cannot make a cue that rolls true on a table, on a rail, on a boat, with a whale. The reason you have not observed the issues and potential risk, is that you have not made as many shafts as these other builders who argue against your methods. I easily build 500 shafts a year and have built well over 3000 cues with no helpers. BUT you don't want to hear MY observations. You always talk about the exchange of ideas and helping other builders but do you actually believe that? Do you listen to others or just vomit your procedures so you seem/feel smarter or better than you actually are?
Ryan,
Vomit, sounds like you are taking this stuff a little personal. You mistake so called feeling smarter with defending a proven system with passion.
This has nothing to do with feeling smarter. It is about results and observations after completing a task. I listen to your statements and understand your method works well for you.
So when DZ shows a print with a Face angle of 6 degrees off perpendicular as an example, I am supposed to look at that and say,"that's a fair presentation as a rebuttal"? A shaft that moves like that is junk no matter what. Examples like that are what is called "singing to the choir". It should have no place is a real discussion where truth is the objective. No one can argue with that statement.
I did not do the math but I don't think with a shaft the has moved that bad that it would still be supported between centers anymore.
I have explained to you the incredible results Ray got using this method and I also get incredible results. You don't even want to go there and respond because it is against your methods. I can see that very clearly by your tacit response.
Again I never told anyone to change their ways. Just pointed our that there are other ways to do something. What you fail to see is that I use both methods. I have the luxury to use either way when ever I wish and can have an objective comparative view.
I choose to make my new shafts using the "thread first" method and for repairs or rework jobs use the threading method "after final size" at the joint because I have no other choice when plugging and re taping another brand of cue.
When I don't have to re face I know the quality of the whole concerning concentricity regarding the X axis. Now who did you say is vomiting or just speaking the truth?
It seems to me that you and others appear to think I don't have the "where with all" to do things the way you do. I assure you I can true up a shaft in the lathe and install threads to a high level of accuracy.
What I can't understand is why you can not see that the pin device as a driver puts the threads parallel to the X and the taper contour after the first cut perfectly.
You can make a 1000 shafts a day but that has nothing to do with the subject or matter at hand. I have not said this here but I guess now is the time. I think the thread first method produces a better and more repeatable shaft with reference to concentricity. At least it does in my shop dove tailed with my other procedures and methods. I am sure you by now assumed this was my sediments.
I am also sure you and others will disagree.
The number of shafts you make is very impressive but means nothing to me as I am a custom shop. Each shaft should be made and judged one at a time wether it is 50 or 500 per year. Quality should be the basis of shaft discussion not quantity. After all the shaft is the most important 50% of a cue in my view where playability is the judgment factor.
When you make 500 shafts what is you AQL number (acceptable quality level) vs. rejection concerning concentricity and taper roll which is a result of not holding all of the parameters correctly. I completely understand those numbers in my shop.
So there it is.
JMO,
Rick
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How many Schuler shafts have flat-bottom threads and were turned at .910 with that thread ?
And were the inserts' pilot at final size ( ouside ) ???
5/16 14 inserts' register does not ride the minor like on flat bottom screws.
Never mind that the inserts and screws were pretty short.
You're comparing apples to oranges .
As i said before Joe, I have not commented on Ray's entire joint system, only on the turning of the shafts on the alum chamfered pilot.
Apples to apples.
How is that apples to apples ?
5/16 14 and 3/8 14 flat bottom are apples and oranges.
Did Ray not put his shafts on a collet closer lathe on final size and refaced those shafts and turn the inserts to final size to fit the walls snugly of the cues ?
His plant was well equipped. He could have easily done that .
He also sold cones\tapered shafts with no inserts to cuemakers and repair people .
Joey,
Apples to apples where taper turning shafts running on the pilot or pin device is concerned.
I don't think Ray sold any shafts without the pilot pre installed. I will check with Stew about that today.
Rick
He did. I inquired in the early 2000's after I was told of it by a local maker . The local maker made limited number of cues and he ordered near finished shafts from Schuler . He tapped them 3/8 10. They had no inserts.
Then they were just blanks not finished Schuler shafts?
Ray would receive shaft stock by the pallet. From what you say, I guess he sold some tapered units without his pilot in them to someone.
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They were tapered blanks .
I don't think he put the inserts in while they were .910" fat .
Joey,
If you wanted one of Ray's 13 tapers he offered and wanted a shaft at final to put you own pin in he would not install the female insert.
That makes sense the those shafts would be run to final on true wood centers.
I talked to Stew about that today and he said Ray never did that to his knowledge in the all years he was there. Maybe Terry Trim had deals like that after Ray sold out to the investors group after Stew retired to the golf course job and lifestyle.
Rick
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