Judging/visualizing the "weight" of the hit

[JoeyInCali]

to pocket and control the ball, is it real or magic ?
Jeremy Jones and Mark Wilson on their commentaries often calls shots too heavy or too light .
JJ also talks about some great players who hit balls differently ( Filler, Buddy Hall and Earl among them ).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

is it real or magic ?

I’m gonna go with yes.

Jeremy Jones and Mark Wilson on their commentaries often calls shots too heavy or too light .

Sounds typical to me - as in heavy or light impact, i.e., more or less speed.

pj
chgo

 

[One Pocket John]

to pocket and control the ball, is it real or magic ?
Jeremy Jones and Mark Wilson on their commentaries often calls shots too heavy or too light .
JJ also talks about some great players who hit balls differently ( Filler, Buddy Hall and Earl among them ).

IMHO its real.
I play each shot as though I feel that I'm pushing the CB off of the OB. This tells me what CB speed and spin I will need to send the CB to its next position.
Its a feel thing.

John

 

[JoeyInCali]

IMHO its real.
I play each shot as though I feel that I'm pushing the CB off of the OB. This tells me what CB speed and spin I will need to send the CB to its next position.
Its a feel thing.

John

I believe it's real too.
When the good players get in the zone aka dead punch, they can feel all that hit .

 

[JoeyInCali]

I’m gonna go with yes.

Sounds typical to me - as in heavy or light impact, i.e., more or less speed.

pj
chgo

For cue ball control, on many thin cuts, where you might have to cheat the pocket , I don't see any other way but to try to feel that hit .
So, any system you use to pocket the ball , still ends up you looking at that collision and feeling the hit .

 

[Bob Jewett]

For cue ball control, on many thin cuts, where you might have to cheat the pocket , I don't see any other way but to try to feel that hit .
So, any system you use to pocket the ball , still ends up you looking at that collision and feeling the hit .

There is the "equal overlap around the contact point" or "lens shaped overlap" system for thin hits. It can be somewhat objective.

 

[BC21]

For cue ball control, on many thin cuts, where you might have to cheat the pocket , I don't see any other way but to try to feel that hit .
So, any system you use to pocket the ball , still ends up you looking at that collision and feeling the hit .

The same "feel" often applies to spinning balls into the pocket with outside spin.

When I think of the "weight" of the hit, it has more to do with the overlap of the balls than it does speed. I believe that's how Jeremy Jones uses the term also. A "heavy" hit is the feel of a thick hit, not the speed of the hit.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When I think of the "weight" of the hit, it has more to do with the overlap of the balls than it does speed. I believe that's how Jeremy Jones uses the term also. A "heavy" hit is the feel of a thick hit, not the speed of the hit.

That's the conclusion I've come to.

pj
chgo

 

[tonythetiger583]

That's the conclusion I've come to.

pj
chgo

I remember using thickness of hit as a rough estimate of judging the weight of a shot.

Full hit "100%" of the energy is going into the object ball.
Quarter ball is the CB will travel 1/4 of the distance the object ball does.
Half ball is 50/50 and both balls will travel equal distance.

Super simplified concept and not something I ever think about during a game. Your mileage may vary

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Quarter ball is the CB will travel 1/4 of the distance the object ball does.

I think the CB will travel farther then the OB with a 1/4 ball hit - I don't know if it's 3/4 CB to 1/4 OB, or what the difference is with a sliding vs. rolling CB.

Half ball is 50/50 and both balls will travel equal distance.

That's true when the CB's rolling at contact, but when the CB's sliding then they both travel the same distance with a 45-degree hit (a little fuller than a 1/4 ball hit).

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

I think the CB will travel farther then the OB with a 1/4 ball hit - I don't know if it's 3/4 CB to 1/4 OB, or what the difference is with a sliding vs. rolling CB.
....
pj
chgo

Yes... I'm pretty sure the cb would retain about 75% of it's speed on a 1/4 ball hit, which means it'll travel quite a bit farther than the ob. The ob will take on about 1/4 of the cb's speed, so it certainly won't roll as far as the cb after impact.

 

[Poolmanis]

I remember using thickness of hit as a rough estimate of judging the weight of a shot.

Full hit "100%" of the energy is going into the object ball.
Quarter ball is the CB will travel 1/4 of the distance the object ball does.
Half ball is 50/50 and both balls will travel equal distance.

Super simplified concept and not something I ever think about during a game. Your mileage may vary

Little nitpicking also from here. to get 50/50 speed is actually hair thinner than half ball with natural rolling cueball. With perfect half ball hit object ball goes little further than cue ball.

 

[Imac007]

When I think of the "weight" of the hit, it has more to do with the overlap of the balls than it does speed. I believe that's how Jeremy Jones uses the term also. A "heavy" hit is the feel of a thick hit, not the speed of the hit.

A rolling ball acquires outside english on contact.
On an open table, a ball with side spin rolls farther, than one without.
If acquired english cancelling, inside side, is applied to the cue ball, the cue ball travels without side spin off contact.
The effect is that without side spin it travels less distance than with the spin.
Players have described that effect as sensing a “heavy” cue ball.
Otherwise, equal overlap and thick vs thin cuts seem to be the consensus for the term.
A cue ball with outside english, beyond the gearing english benchmark, plays “light” on open table travel and either fast or slow (light or heavy) depending on rail angle contact.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A rolling ball acquires outside english on contact.

OK. (A sliding one acquires even more.)

On an open table, a ball with side spin rolls farther, than one without.

Don't think so (unless you mean after contacting the OB).

If acquired english cancelling, inside side, is applied to the cue ball, the cue ball travels without side spin off contact.

OK.

The effect is that without side spin it travels less distance than with the spin.

It travels less distance because without sidespin it's slowed by contact friction with the OB.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

The approximation (thinness of hit = speed transferred) works well for safeties. For example, a student has three quick choices of basic safeties in Nine Ball with only the cue and 9-ball on the table:

1) Full/near full to drive the 9 away from impact and widely separate the balls

2) Thin hit to roll the cue ball away from impact " "

3) Half ball hit (or nearly half ball hit) to move the two balls a near equal distance (like changing a 9-ball on the middle of the short rail to cue ball and object ball along the long rails for a painful bank for the incoming player)

 

[HawaiianEye]

A rolling ball acquires outside english on contact.
On an open table, a ball with side spin rolls farther, than one without.
If acquired english cancelling, inside side, is applied to the cue ball, the cue ball travels without side spin off contact.
The effect is that without side spin it travels less distance than with the spin.
Players have described that effect as sensing a “heavy” cue ball.
Otherwise, equal overlap and thick vs thin cuts seem to be the consensus for the term.
A cue ball with outside english, beyond the gearing english benchmark, plays “light” on open table travel and either fast or slow (light or heavy) depending on rail angle contact.

You and I think alike.

 

[Imac007]

Don't think so (unless you mean after contacting the OB).

It travels less distance because without sidespin it's slowed by contact friction with the OB.

I am talking about after contact.
Your point that it will have a smaller force vector when the two opposing forces cancel each other out is correct.
That is why its “weight” feels heavier, more force is needed to send it a set distance.
Never less, it obscures the fact that two balls initially traveling the same speed, after contact, travel different distances if one has side spin and the other does not.
Your truth does not negate the second, only adds more evidence supporting the difference between the two types of contact.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...two balls initially traveling the same speed, after contact, travel different distances if one has side spin and the other does not.

I don't see why that would be true - but I'm interested in any evidence or explanation you have.

I visualize a rolling CB with sidespin the same as a tilted barrel rolling on its bottom edge - no obvious difference in ball/table friction or rolling momentum.

Wonder if Dr. Dave knows...

pj
chgo

 

[Imac007]

I don't see why that would be true - but I'm interested in any evidence or explanation you have.

I visualize a rolling CB with sidespin the same as a tilted barrel rolling on its bottom edge - no obvious difference in ball/table friction or rolling momentum.

View attachment 610728

Wonder if Dr. Dave knows...

pj
chgo

You would have no problem visualizing the side spin contacting a rail and traveling farther, would you?
When the cue ball is spinning on a cloth surface there is a minuscule amount of side surface where friction catches.
On a break you often see a cue ball spinning for a long time.
Sometimes it continues to walk along the surface and sometimes it spins in place.
When it walks along the bed surface it has a curved path, based on the direction of spin, not unlike the direction of travel with a swerve shot.
Occasionally it catches something on the bed just before it spins to a halt, making a last minute curled move on the cloth.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When the cue ball is spinning on a cloth surface there is a minuscule amount of side surface where friction catches.

I can live with "miniscule".

pj
chgo