It's not 5 minute, but when I have the time I like to use the G-flex that west sells. I use It in a lot of structural applications.
Juma glue
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It's not 5 minute, but when I have the time I like to use the G-flex that west sells. I use It in a lot of structural applications.
I used to use a lot of G-5 for building cues but stopped as after a few years I was getting to many failures. I had a number of butt caps and deco-rings come loose. The repair was rather easy except the refinish but why should I have to repair? Why not just use a stronger glue to start with? Also, if the glue was failing on the deco-rings and butt caps - what about the internal parts such as the A-joint and internal deco-rings? West systems web sight even states that G-5 is not for permanent use. I used to buy it 3 quarts at a time as there was a discount at that amount. I quit using it except for ferrules and pins about 5 or 6 years ago but I still have a quart left which will last me 3 lifetimes.
I use 9 different glues for different purposes. In my opinion, they all work great for what I am using them for. Absolutely no 1, 2 or even 3 glues will fill the needs of a cue maker.
The use of a fast setting glue is not needed in cue building. There is no need to rush. In repair work the super glues are very handy for tip replacement as usually the customer is standing there waiting so speed is needed in this instance.
There are many different techniques for building cues and many different materials that can be used. The builder has his choice in what he feels is best for his construction. In my experience however, after building cues for over 20 years, that there are much better glues available than G-5.
Dick
I use 9 different glues for different purposes. In my opinion, they all work great for what I am using them for. Absolutely no 1, 2 or even 3 glues will fill the needs of a cue maker.
The use of a fast setting glue is not needed in cue building. There is no need to rush. In repair work the super glues are very handy for tip replacement as usually the customer is standing there waiting so speed is needed in this instance.
There are many different techniques for building cues and many different materials that can be used. The builder has his choice in what he feels is best for his construction. In my experience however, after building cues for over 20 years, that there are much better glues available than G-5.
Dick
Hi,
I have observed that there is a misconception that G5 is a weak product due to a overt disclaimer made by West. I have talked to engineers at West and they emailed me the specs. for G5. I remember that the tensile strength was considerably stronger than Devcon.
Here is a quote from their website concerning G5:
"Not recommended for long-term bonds subject to high loads or moisture".
The engineers at West profess that G5 is the strongest 5 minute epoxy on the market at the time I talked to them. The disclaimer is there because West Produces structural systems for building fiberglass boats that are subject to extreme flex and loading conditions in high moisture environments, ie. boat bilges. When their slow cure epoxies are used in conjunction with the fiber glass blankets they can get 20,000 psi aggregate effectiveness over a certain measured surface areas such are used to construct stringers and keel member designed to take loads seen in ocean going fiberglass vessels.
Since G5 is thick and sets in 5 minutes it "can not" be used for a monolithic structure using fiberglass cloth material layering. The 105 / 206 type materials slow cure and seep into the cloth and forms a monolithic bond using the mesh as the aggregate. Kind of like rebar and concrete as an analogy.
Stating "Not recommended for long-term bonds subject to high loads or moisture" applies to most glues or epoxy with out the use of an aggregate material or mechanical device to form a stabilized engineered structure. West System points this out as a disclaimer as there are people that would try to use this material for things it will not tolerate in a maritime environment. It is legalese.
To knock G5 because it is not strong or lasting is incorrect. To knock G5 because you don't like 5 minute "set" pot life is a better argument. BTW G5 does not cure in 5 minutes. It actually fully cures in about 7 days. Also G5 can be used in conjunction with 105 / 206 for example to extend it's set time. These materials are totally compatible.
I know that I have done between 500 to 800 ferrules in my cue repair business and new cues in the last 8 years using G5 on thru tenons with 7 filed V groove for keyways. Honestly, I have never had one failure due to the glue bond. As far as butt caps are concerned, the number is only about 150 to date but the failure rate is still 0 using G5 at 90 degrees with V grooves filed on the tenon.
If I could not use G5, I would close my shop, literally. If breaking racks of pool balls for years with a ferrule glued with G5 to a .312 wood tenon is not a good enough test for it's effectiveness, I could not think of anything more apropos to do with a force or load test on a pool cue.
JMO,
Rick
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What's the rush in gluing buttcaps Rick ???
I don't get it. Why would you use G5 on the buttcap and sleeve when you have West 206? Do you turn that buttcap the same day you glue it ?
The only 5-minute necessity to me is ferrule repair while customer is waiting.
The G-Flex is a rubber toughened epoxy that I have used for about 5 years now and have not had an failures with it.It should be regarded as a 24 hour adhesive.
I don't see any area to use 5 min epoxies in cue construction.
There are better toughened epoxies that the G-Flex but either come at a higher cost or are a funny colour or are for industrial use only and are not retailed at all.
Neil
I don't see any area to use 5 min epoxies in cue construction.
There are better toughened epoxies that the G-Flex but either come at a higher cost or are a funny colour or are for industrial use only and are not retailed at all.
Neil
Hey Joey,
There is not a rush or urgency it is because I have done my research and am not prone to urban legend about a legal disclaimer without engineering basis.
Yes, I can turn the cue the same day as I glue the joint ring or butt cap. When you do ferrules for a waiting customer, how long do you make them wait before you turn the ferrule. I usually wait about 20 minutes and tell them to wait over night before they hit balls.
I just explained the reasons why I feel it is a fine glue for the ferrules, joint rings and butt caps. If someone else wants to wait 24 or 36 hours to the next step in their process, I don't knock that. To each their own.
I was trained by the last cue maker who worked at Omega DPK and guess where I got the notion of using it? That does not mean it is right because someone else used it either. Absolutely not, but it sparked my questioning attitude about the stuff and all of my research and testing over time in the field led me to my acceptance and peace of mind.
I use shop acclimated Kiln dried wood blanks ( except Tulip wood and some others ) and don't mandate seasoning my butt wood and take cuts over years either and my cues don't warp. Does that make me stupid or smart? Just because someone tells you that this A and this B equals C, does not mean it is the only path to C. Because I have so many beta cues in the field and sold cues that I monitor, my argument to use of such a process has a basis other than everything that goes on in many other cue shops. I only care about what happens in my shop. It is called observation and with the injection of a null hypothesis within a model.
Saying stuff like "this other 5 minute epoxy gives the G5 the 7 and out" is OK but "why" was my question.
One thing that G5 does pretty well is it has great adhesion quality and does not have the time to soak into the grain or shrink within the dowel annulus. I sand my components smooth at 320 grit and V file key way grooves on the dowel. This increases surface area and forms key ways for foundation not a rough cut RMS. 90 degree G5 slathered on both the sanded ID and OD and I am good to go.
Those who think G5 is a material that is for "Temporary Use" have drunk the Kool Aid and bought into the urban legend that gets spun over and over.
BTW, I have a substantial cue repair business at my pool hall and do a lot of ferrules for my customer's cues. If I thought for one moment that G5 was not up to the task, I would never do their repairs using a product I did not believe in because they were waiting. They would have to leave their cue with me and pick it up on another day. That simple!
Just for the hell of it, take a ferrule, put tape on the bottom of the through hole and fill it up with G5. Wait a few days, put it in a vise and then hit the G5 with a center punch. Then make your own judgment and evaluation.
Of coarse this all is JMO,
Rick
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I really like It, and have had no failures with It either, even in situations where I was probably depending on the glue more then I should have, It has held up well so far. Best part Is west marine is only about 5 minutes down the road, so I don't have to order It and wait on shipping.
I have never used the G5, but I have used quick cure from system three, It was alright for ferrules and what not I suppose, but as with any 5 minute I don't trust It on the more structural elements of a cue. Just too brittle IMO. I really prefer to use the G-flex on ferrules too, but depends on how much time I have. Usually I have a 2 day turn around on something like that though, and that's enough time to use the slow set.
I often do use G-5 for ferrules but my ferrules are threaded on. I sometimes use yellow glue also. I stated that. I used G-5 for 5 - 7 years before I started to get cues back from deco-rings failing. Those are usually pretty small so not much glue area but I've also had about 5 butt-caps come loose and they are not small glue areas. That is when I stopped using it. It's been about 6 or 7 years now and I've never had another problem with the cues built after I started using the slow setting West system.
As I said, the builder can use many different types of materials. Use whatever makes you happy but from my experience, G-5 is not for me nor any other 5-minute epoxy.
Dick
That doesn't eliminate wood contraction and expansion .
I do epoxy testing real simple first.
I mix a portion inside a plastic mixing cup. I leave the popsicle stick there.
The next day, I try to pull that popsicle stick.
That one that clings on to the shiny plastic wins.
I wun't too impressed with G5. Also it felt soft to me.
I don't see the logic in using G5 pressfit buttplate at all.
If you have West 206, why would G5 even be a consideration ?
But, you have your ways and set on it.
Some like drinking the kool aid .
My kool aid is I thread my buttplate so the sleeve and rings are in compression and have a mechanical bond at the bottom. For all intents and purposes the epoxy between rings is formality. They just really need epoxy on the ID as the threaded buttplate has them in compression. There is no way for them to spin. Specially if you file a flat inside. They just need to be sealed.
I don't really believe much in suspension construction like clamping all the pieces together and let the glue dry. Wood expands and contracts.
I like the top, middle and bottom to be in compression.
Hell, SW threads their butt bottom. They're not even sleeves. They're rods threaded to the bottom of the handle.
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Yes, I can turn the cue the same day as I glue the joint ring or butt cap. When you do ferrules for a waiting customer, how long do you make them wait before you turn the ferrule. I usually wait about 20 minutes and tell them to wait over night before they hit balls.
I tell they can't play with that shaft till the next day.
I tell they can't play with that shaft till the next day.
Hey Joe,
If you have a threaded tenon on your cue's butt cap, I see your point and totally agree that it is a fine method and very sound using thinner slow cure. The thicker material is not the way to go for a press fit either.
If you use G5 or another 5minute epoxy it is thicker than slow cure and there needs to be a looser fit for the glue to 360 gap fill before putting pressure on the face while setting. By using V grooves as foundation key ways for the fast set accomplishs the same end IMO.
It's all good, thanks for sharing that point of clarification.
The point I was trying to make in my post was that G5 is a fantastic epoxy material for some aplications in cue making and that disclaimer on the website has been misconstrued and like the story that is told over and over the embellishment gets larger and larger.
Rick
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G5 is not recommended for bonds subject to high loads or exposed to moisture. That's for G-5.
G-Flex ?
West System G/Flex liquid epoxy is a toughened, versatile adhesive designed for permanent, waterproof bonds on fiberglass, ceramics, glass, masonry, metals, plastics, damp and difficult-to-bond woods. G/flex epoxy is resilient enough to bond dissimilar materials and flexible enough to absorb the stress of expansion, contraction, shock and vibration.
Sure sounds like a ferrule and buttcap good epoxy to me.
Then again, so is your collection of Hysol.
I don't think you would have to close shop and switch to G-Flex.
Thanks Neil.
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Hey Joey,
Looks like good stuff for construction of butt caps & joint rings. I still need a boat load of G5 because I use it as my substrate for my finish because it is water clear and I can put 4 coats on in 12 minutes without sanding between coats and get a monolithic cure over night before flat sanding. 4 coats gives me about .012 of thickness but I sand off about 1/2. By going to 4 coats I have never burned through during sanding because of the sacrificial over capacity layers. Cheap anti burn through insurance. During my first couple of years building cues, I would burn through a lot and have to re coat because I was going after the last couple of shiny spots and would look down at the paper and see the skid mark from the wood dust there. With 4 coat applied 3 minutes apart I can sand with 220 and then 320, get all the shiny spots and still have meat on the bone.
That's why i was joking about closing down without it. 12 minutes, then wait to the next day with a guarantee of not burning through, is heaven to me.:joyful: It is like Ron Popeal said about his chicken cooking machine. "Set it and Forget it".
I will contact West and get numbers on this stuff and post the comparisons here. I still think G5 is still overkill for the application but if this stuff is stronger what the hell! We will find out. It still says high strength quick cure 2 part on the first paragraph on the G5 bottle. As you an I both know very well, the slower cure epoxies are very strong. Hysol is 36 hours for a reason. Better living through chemistry.
My guess is that it is G-Flex is just G5 resin mixed with some slower hardener but I will get the facts from their engineering dept.
Thanks,
Rick
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glue chart
Good idea to include in cuemaking book,,,the various glues for various uses and why....I'd buy a copy just for that...would have saved me tons.
Good idea to include in cuemaking book,,,the various glues for various uses and why....I'd buy a copy just for that...would have saved me tons.
My guess is that it is G-Flex is just G5 resin mixed with some slower hardener but I will get the facts from their engineering dept.
Thanks,
Rick[/QUOTE]
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy-adhesion-data/
This table shows the G-Flex 650 and 655 and how they bond different Materials.
The G-Flex is not the G5 with a different hardener.
http://www.gougeonbrothers.com/Six10/PDFs/Six10Properties.pdf
The six10 is a newish product. The chart on page 2 is worth looking at.
This should be of some use to some people.
Thanks,
Rick[/QUOTE]
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/g-flex-epoxy-adhesion-data/
This table shows the G-Flex 650 and 655 and how they bond different Materials.
The G-Flex is not the G5 with a different hardener.
http://www.gougeonbrothers.com/Six10/PDFs/Six10Properties.pdf
The six10 is a newish product. The chart on page 2 is worth looking at.
This should be of some use to some people.
Just a curiosity, but do you use a bolt in your butt plate during installation? I use 5 minute epoxy because it is so thick, but I also use a bolt to squeeze everything together.