jump sticks and 14.1

[foxcues]

If you can play the whole game with that and not break it down during your "jump sessions"...fill your boots.

Jump cue vs Diamond system? I think your stretching your poetic license there. We are not playing ball in hand rotation here. You have options.

Nick

Ball in hand rotation has nothing to do with what I`m talking about.I practiced long and hard at jumping to get good at it,just like you would do to learn the diamond sytem and english,no different.I chose to learn jumping and the diamond system.I could have chose not to learn either also.You say you and I have other options right?You would choose to kick or masse and not jump right?I choose to jump and not masse or kick(depending on the shot).As long as it is not against the rules neither one of us is wrong.We just shooting the shots we are most comfortable with and most likely to make the ball and still continue shooting.I know a league(I`m definetly not a league player)that won`t allow jump shots,I ask the L.O. why and he said it was because not everyone can jump so I said to him not everyone can draw the ball a table lenght so why not ban long draw shots?I`m still waiting on a answer.If you can jump and choose not to thats up to you,But don`t handicap me because I might be able to do something that you maybe don`t know how to do or choose not to do.You may kick or masse better than me and I may jump better than you,as long as it`s legal in the rules it all fair.

 

[pulzcul]

I've enjoyed the input gentlemen. You all have valid points. It looks like it boils down to a case of the equipment overtaking the rules. WPA rules were written a long time ago and havn't changed to regulate or even ban the jump cue [ regardless of what the tip is made of]. I agree with Mr. Jewett when he suggests the rules should be updated. And I also agree that they should not be used. I think 14.1 has a history and a tradition that should be preserved and respected. But thats just me.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I've enjoyed the input gentlemen. You all have valid points. It looks like it boils down to a case of the equipment overtaking the rules. WPA rules were written a long time ago and havn't changed to regulate or even ban the jump cue [ regardless of what the tip is made of]. I agree with Mr. Jewett when he suggests the rules should be updated. And I also agree that they should not be used. I think 14.1 has a history and a tradition that should be preserved and respected. But thats just me.

Actually, the WPA rules do address the tip of ANY cue. And a jump cue with a phenolic tip would not be legal under the currently posted rules:

...The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed.

Upon reading this, it sounds like phenolic would be illegal on a break cue as well, which would clearly cause a stir (not for straight pool of course).

Frankly I doubt the whole thing is much of an issue. Jump cues have been around for awhile now and how often are they used in 14.1, even at the professional level where every single player knows how to jump? Close to never. The nature of the game itself seems to be the best defense against their use.

 

[Bobby]

Just to be clear, the BCA and the WPA rules are the same and there is no prohibition against jump cues, though the phenolic tip would probably disallow it. The BCAPL (Mark Griffin's Pool League, not affiliated with the BCA) does expressly disallow using other than your playing cue to jump balls in straight pool.



Did he whip out a jump cue for the shot?


You know I really can't recall if he used a jump cue or his regular cue. I just remember him jacked way up and making the shot and the crowd went nuts. I'm thinking he must have used his regular cue if the rule was indeed 'no jump cues' because he was playing Dick Lane and he seems like the type who would have made a fuss if his opponent broke the rules.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

You know I really can't recall if he used a jump cue or his regular cue. I just remember him jacked way up and making the shot and the crowd went nuts. I'm thinking he must have used his regular cue if the rule was indeed 'no jump cues' because he was playing Dick Lane and he seems like the type who would have made a fuss if his opponent broke the rules.

Bobby, it would be interesting to know what rules were in effect back then. As they stand right now I can't find anything in the WPA rules banning jump cues in 14.1. The BCA rules are the same as the WPA. In fact if you click on the rules at the BCA website the downloads are on WPA letterhead. Only in the straight pool rules of the BCA Pool League am I able to see where it is addressed.

 

[sandfoot]

This may be a little off topic, but I remember reading somewhere (I think one of Robert Bryne's books) that Pat Flemming introduced the short jump cue at a 14:1 tournament in the early 80's. He was jumping over racks to pocket balls and made a game winning shot by jumping over the edge of a ball.

 

[Winston846]

Actually George "Ginky" Sansouci made a jump shot in the final of the 1999 National 14.1 Championship. It was a fairly tough shot but he made it and won the match and tournament.

Like I said, he must have been 1000% sure he was going to make it, because that could have been disaster if he didn't.

 

[pulzcul]

...The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed.

Fibrous or pliable material indeed. Phenolic no, White Diamond yes. But thats another subject and has been beat to death in previous threads.
But if I were to make a ruling with that description and exact wording while playing 14.1 under WPA rules, without a rule to specifically exclude jump sticks and having installed a White Diamond on his jumper myself, I'd have to let him shoot. But so far I can't bring myself to do it.

 

[Nick B]

Hey Foxy,
I have two questions:
1. Do you really believe that 14.1 was meant to allow jumping (with a prop cue)?

2. Do you even play the game. or is this some sort of modified 2nd amendment fight...I have one and you won't take my gun from me.

Nick

Just a question.
Suppose I`m playing with my jump/break cue as my player.It has a leather tip and I can still jump over a full ball about 1 1/4 balls away with a full cue not broke down for jumping.Am I committing a foul?Also would some of you quit because I just(if not a foul)made a shot you don`t agree with even though it is not a foul.
It is no different than someone knowing the diamond system and someone not knowing it.Everyone has the chance to learn they just have to choose to do so.I agree if the rules state it is not allowed then it is not allowed but if I make a perfectly legal shot and someone quits me because they don`t think it`s right then that person needs to fina new game to play grow up.Not trying to start a war just a honest question.

 

[Winston846]

You're making it sound like if someone uses a jump cue, they are pond scum...and who said we were talking about "top players"? I give up, if it's ok with the rules and I feel comfortable with the shot, what's the big deal? You feel if I shoot the jump shot, I'm a total moron, have no idea what's going on and making a travesty of the game. At least I was open minded to say I'd gladly play with no jump cue if the rules forbid it, even if someone did whip out a jump cue, I'd still play, I would quit like you have stated. I'll never quit a game in that scenario and kinda sad you would....but i guess you are who you are.

No, I'm not saying that anyone is pond scum. It's just a different style of game, that's all. I was even surprised to learn Ginky actually played one in a match. It is certainly not a "conventional" shot for 14.1, and unless you're the caliber of jumper that Ginky was, the risk far outweighs the reward.

And as someone else stated, 14.1 is NOT a one-foul/ball-in-hand game. You don't HAVE to hit the ball you're shooting at first. So there are other, more viable options. I haven't seen Ginky's jump and don't know the circumstances under which he chose to execute it, but I will say that it was certainly the exception, and not the norm in 14.1.

 

[West Point 1987]

I'm still trying to picture a case where you'd need to jump vice a combo, masse/wrinkle, or safety...I don't particularly care either way, but I really can't picture a case in 14.1 where you'd ever prefer to jump? I can see a hop when masse'ing around the edge of a ball, but an actual jump?

 

[Ron F]

Scenario

I'm still trying to picture a case where you'd need to jump vice a combo, masse/wrinkle, or safety...I don't particularly care either way, but I really can't picture a case in 14.1 where you'd ever prefer to jump? I can see a hop when masse'ing around the edge of a ball, but an actual jump?

I'll try. How bout this: CB is on the foot rail near one pocket and a ball is hanging in front of the opposing corner pocket. Easy shot, except there are 2 balls stuck together between the CB and the hanger. There is no combination available in the way the 2 impeding balls are configured. However, if you jump over one of the balls you can easily pocket the hanger.

Ron F

 

[West Point 1987]

I guess we could play this what if game forever...my fault, I asked! Yeah, I see that in your example. I guess IF no safety is available nudging one of the two interfering balls or if a masse is just too tough, okay, point taken.

 

[foxcues]

Hey Foxy,
I have two questions:
1. Do you really believe that 14.1 was meant to allow jumping (with a prop cue)?

2. Do you even play the game. or is this some sort of modified 2nd amendment fight...I have one and you won't take my gun from me.

Nick

Basically It`s not what I believe in it is what the rules allow.Thats the whole problem,There are those that think jumping should not be allowed and those that think it should be allowed.If someone wants to use a jump cue on me it is ok as long as I can do the same back.Generally(not always) those that complain about it are the ones that can`t jump very well and hate it when they try to safe someone and can`t hide them because their safeties aren`t that great.

As for me I play all games,just some more often than others.I have a 9ft diamond in my house so alot of times I will play straight pool.I think it is great practice.

To be honest with you I could care less if jumping is allowed or not,I just made a comment about it.

You have every right to play the game the way you want,what I say doesn`t matter it is the rules that are the deciding factor no matter what either of us think.

 

[poolmouse]

Did your friend also pull out his break cue when it came time to re-rack?

Interesting, I would have a problem with either.

 

[pulzcul]

I'll try. How bout this: CB is on the foot rail near one pocket and a ball is hanging in front of the opposing corner pocket. Easy shot, except there are 2 balls stuck together between the CB and the hanger. There is no combination available in the way the 2 impeding balls are configured. However, if you jump over one of the balls you can easily pocket the hanger.

Ron F

And thats what happened. A ball was hangin in the pocket. Although a safety was available, he took the easy jump. But I stiil contend it was a "bait fisherman" thing to do.:nono:

 

[Blackjack]

An educated 14.1 player would have found another option. That's JMO. If someone busts out a jump cue while playing 14.1, that means he/she is severely lacking ability in the kicking department. even if they ran out the game, I'd make a mental note of that, and exploit it the next time we played any game.

 

[Underclocked]

The vast majority of jump shots I see attempted result in a chaotic mess on the table and a foul. I think that would probably be the case regardless of the cue game being played. Most (if not all) of the old pool rooms I remember had signs on the wall saying NO JUMP SHOTS! and many also forbade masse' shots.

In those days, attempting such a shot would usually result in a warning and then getting the boot if you continued to use those shots. Jump shots were most definitely a known quantity and not some mystery invention of a future generation.

There was and remains a very solid reason for those old signs.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

The vast majority of jump shots I see attempted result in a chaotic mess on the table and a foul. I think that would probably be the case regardless of the cue game being played. Most (if not all) of the old pool rooms I remember had signs on the wall saying NO JUMP SHOTS! and many also forbade masse' shots.

In those days, attempting such a shot would usually result in a warning and then getting the boot if you continued to use those shots. Jump shots were most definitely a known quantity and not some mystery invention of a future generation.

There was and remains a very solid reason for those old signs.

There was a reason---but not anymore. The old signs were in old rooms that used old type fabrics that did not include synthetic threads. The old fabrics was more easily torn the the modern fabrics.

 

[Underclocked]

I disagree. I had the 2nd best jump shot maker that I know do several jump shots from one area of the table. The shots required a quick jump as the ball being jumped wasn't far from the cue ball. Every point where his shots originated a contact impression was made by his ceramic tip. The cue ball would then settle into each of those spots when tested. The indent was not just in the cloth as it was obvious that it was also in the slate itself.

It isn't just about the cloth used on the table.

Jump shots still cause the same damage they always have, it's just that the lighter jump cues may hit with less momentum.

By the way, that player still shoots jump shots very effectively even though he now now knows the shots are damaging the table. I cannot fault him as he plays against other players doing the same thing.

I think there is a lot of defensive hype about jump shots. Try that little experiment for yourself (hopefully on your own table).