Just another tobacco thread ...
- Thread starter Jimmy M.
- Start date
With hard-core smoking countries like France, Germany and England joining the trend now, I guess in a few years you might be able to find a place to light up and play deep in Bulgaria or Burkina Faso or some corner of Laos ... or you could just step outside.
WA is non-smoking as of a few years ago. I heard that Oregon just passed resolution to discontinue smoking in bars, etc as well. The changes will not take effect until like 2009 or so.
The National APA tourney at the Riviera last August was ridiculous with the amount of smokers in the room. People from states that have banned smoking were smoking twice as much with the renewed freedom of having a cig lit while playing...or just sitting there watching. In the time between that tourney and BCA Nationals a few weeks ago they made it non-smoking inside the convention center. It was great.
Todd <---non-smoker for life
The National APA tourney at the Riviera last August was ridiculous with the amount of smokers in the room. People from states that have banned smoking were smoking twice as much with the renewed freedom of having a cig lit while playing...or just sitting there watching. In the time between that tourney and BCA Nationals a few weeks ago they made it non-smoking inside the convention center. It was great.
Todd <---non-smoker for life
I am a smoker, but I don't smoke while I play or at the table. If I want to smoke my cigarette, it sits in an ashtray at the bar about 5 feet from my favorite table (which is the last in the row, no one between me and my nicotine habit...)...
Just about everyone at the bar I visit will move their ashtray if the smoke is bothering you, and while I would prefer no one smoke around any tables I play on (I love the tables I play on, even if they aren't mine...), I also respect their right to do so, and just expect them to respect my right to ask them to kindly move the ashtray a few feet back.
Like I said, I am a smoker, so I personally hope this law never reaches my state... I say accept everyone's rights, and if you act like a decent human being everyone can find a way to get along
Just about everyone at the bar I visit will move their ashtray if the smoke is bothering you, and while I would prefer no one smoke around any tables I play on (I love the tables I play on, even if they aren't mine...), I also respect their right to do so, and just expect them to respect my right to ask them to kindly move the ashtray a few feet back.
Like I said, I am a smoker, so I personally hope this law never reaches my state... I say accept everyone's rights, and if you act like a decent human being everyone can find a way to get along
Yokel said:I am a smoker, but I don't smoke while I play or at the table. If I want to smoke my cigarette, it sits in an ashtray at the bar about 5 feet from my favorite table (which is the last in the row, no one between me and my nicotine habit...)...
Just about everyone at the bar I visit will move their ashtray if the smoke is bothering you, and while I would prefer no one smoke around any tables I play on (I love the tables I play on, even if they aren't mine...), I also respect their right to do so, and just expect them to respect my right to ask them to kindly move the ashtray a few feet back.
Like I said, I am a smoker, so I personally hope this law never reaches my state... I say accept everyone's rights, and if you act like a decent human being everyone can find a way to get along
But that's the thing.. The overwhelming majority of smokers aren't worried about making it easier on anyone else. If you ask some of them politely to move their ashtray, they will blow smoke in your face and move the ashtray closer to you.
If smokers and those businesses catering only to smokers cared about others, a forced ban wouldn't be necessary. The majority of bars/pool halls have awful ventilation..
And like others have said.. The state wide bans have little effect on business at all. In fact, it might have a positive effect, after the non-smokers are able to go socialize more with the smokers.
Russ
Russ Chewning said:
I might have little-guy syndrome, but I've learned that taking crap the first time just leads to a deeper pile.
There is a fine-line between a joke and an asshole... in that situation me and that guy would be cashing out and walking out the door at the same time
I say respect your fellow man, and teach respect to the rest...
I can say that a ban on smoking isn't as great as it sounds. I frequent a pool hall with several "smoke eaters" to venitlate any smoke. I've seen over 200 people smoking during the same tournament and you can't tell when you walk in the door. What happens when the business now loses the casual pool players who enjoy a drink and a smoke while they hit balls around? During the winter and league seasons here in the mid-west, it doesn't matter too much, but during the spring, summer, and fall when we have to compete with boating, golf, camping, etc., the pool halls falter. They've been running very lean(even the long running, successful ones) during those times of the year before. Now they can't afford to be open as long of hours, have as many employees, run as much advertising, and ultimately, they have to begin looking elsewhere for income. Illinois is going non-smoking very soon, so I'm glad my pool hall is in Iowa. We will be getting more business from cross the river for a while, but when's Iowa gonna follow suit?
I'm a smoker, and I would like to see the non-smokers open up their own places and make them non-smoking. I'm not telling them which of their bad habits not to do in front of me! If they don't like it, go somewhere else! I don't know of a single smoker I'm around that would blow smoke in a non-smokers face, or move an ashtray closer. Smokers for the most part try to be as unobtrusive as possible. We know that there are plenty of non-smokers around no matter where we go.
I say lets get rid of all alcohol instead! Drinking causes more fights and problems than smoking. I haven't seen many people in car accidents because they were over the limit on nicotine. Have you? By the way, I enjoy my alcohol too so better yet, let everyone live their life as they see fit.
I'm a smoker, and I would like to see the non-smokers open up their own places and make them non-smoking. I'm not telling them which of their bad habits not to do in front of me! If they don't like it, go somewhere else! I don't know of a single smoker I'm around that would blow smoke in a non-smokers face, or move an ashtray closer. Smokers for the most part try to be as unobtrusive as possible. We know that there are plenty of non-smokers around no matter where we go.
I say lets get rid of all alcohol instead! Drinking causes more fights and problems than smoking. I haven't seen many people in car accidents because they were over the limit on nicotine. Have you? By the way, I enjoy my alcohol too so better yet, let everyone live their life as they see fit.
Last edited:
Light up out there see if I care =)
Are there better stats on the effect it's had on pool halls? Because it's hard to point to the results of just one pool hall and say "see, this is how it probably is all across the country". I know it's had no ill effects on the 2 or 3 halls I go to, but I don't know if that proves anything.
What I do know for sure is that sometimes we need laws to force people to be respectful to the people and property around them. It's easy to think up a million examples of this, from noise ordinances to littering laws. It's not realistic to say "just trust in people to be decent about it, there's no need to make a law for it." The world will never work that way.
Anyway, Russ's example is a little extreme and maybe actually hurts the argument for bans (not to pick on you Russ, because otherwise I like what you've got to say on the subject). It makes it sound like the only time smoking bothers anyone is when the smoker is pretty close and maybe blows it right in your face. But I find it bothers me just being in the same room as a bunch of smokers, they don't have to be close to make the air in the room really lousy.
I think a lot of the smokers (and some non-smokers) see this a personal freedom issue where lawmakers are trying to force their uptight, puritan way of life on other people. That's BS. The bans have nothing to do with smokers, they are 100 percent made for the nonsmokers. Lawmakers (and most of the rest of us) could care less if anyone wants to light up... what you do with your life is your business. Smoke, drink, eat red meat and jerk off as much as you want. It's when it affects other people's lives that anyone starts to care.
Are there better stats on the effect it's had on pool halls? Because it's hard to point to the results of just one pool hall and say "see, this is how it probably is all across the country". I know it's had no ill effects on the 2 or 3 halls I go to, but I don't know if that proves anything.
What I do know for sure is that sometimes we need laws to force people to be respectful to the people and property around them. It's easy to think up a million examples of this, from noise ordinances to littering laws. It's not realistic to say "just trust in people to be decent about it, there's no need to make a law for it." The world will never work that way.
Anyway, Russ's example is a little extreme and maybe actually hurts the argument for bans (not to pick on you Russ, because otherwise I like what you've got to say on the subject). It makes it sound like the only time smoking bothers anyone is when the smoker is pretty close and maybe blows it right in your face. But I find it bothers me just being in the same room as a bunch of smokers, they don't have to be close to make the air in the room really lousy.
I think a lot of the smokers (and some non-smokers) see this a personal freedom issue where lawmakers are trying to force their uptight, puritan way of life on other people. That's BS. The bans have nothing to do with smokers, they are 100 percent made for the nonsmokers. Lawmakers (and most of the rest of us) could care less if anyone wants to light up... what you do with your life is your business. Smoke, drink, eat red meat and jerk off as much as you want. It's when it affects other people's lives that anyone starts to care.
CreeDo said:
What about those "rights" you were so concerned about? Don't "rights" apply to every human, including smokers AND hall owners who voluntarily chose to associate with each other in a private business?
It is PROPERTY rights* that have been violated by these laws. Why? Because the business owner is responsible to pay the bills, but now can't control who he wants to do business with or how. Why do the NON-owners get to force this law onto the guy who risked all and is paying all the bills---the guy we love? He now is responsible for the work and money, but has lost the control of his business to others. Some "right" that is! The incentive for opening a hall has diminished....again!
What of pool? Where will you not smoke when the halls are gone?
Jeff Livingston
* It is property rights, along with diversivication of labor, and trade that make ALL other values possible. As each of these is made illegal, by lazy, violent control-freaks and their supporters, prosperity wanes. Pool can only take so much of this before it is next. Think about that.
I had an English teacher who had two rants:
The first was against all who liked Double Bubble and similar products
- Abominable Gum-chewing Wretches
Rabid pool players who refuse to patronize a pool hall rather than forgo a smoke, thus forcing the pool hall out of business, would be in the second category
- Fuming Idiots
The first was against all who liked Double Bubble and similar products
- Abominable Gum-chewing Wretches
Rabid pool players who refuse to patronize a pool hall rather than forgo a smoke, thus forcing the pool hall out of business, would be in the second category
- Fuming Idiots
Where does it end? Why don't we just have govt control everything?
Smoking, drinking, fatty foods, elective surgery, cars, sun exposure, contact sports.....and a million other things....
Where does it end and personal responsibility come into play? Can't people make their own choices, or should you be able to make it for them? What happens when you lose something that is personal and you feel infringes on your rights?
Drinking - it easily causes more harm that good with disease and auto accidents, ban it...
Fatty foods - that chicken fried steak, hamburger, or favorite dessert is 10 times worse for your body and heart that broccoli and carrots....ban them.
Elective surgery - healthwise, there is only a downside to fake bewbers that many of you love....oh, and now that fatty foods have been banned, no need for lipo....
Cars - 75 mph governor on all vehicles, over 75mph is dangerous...
Sun - it's UV rays are dangerous, all sports are indoor...and no laying out or swimming in the sun, $1000 fine...
Contact sports - people get injured, let's all just be a nation of poofs....
Even though I don't like all things listed above, I like that they can exist. I don't drink much, but I enjoy it now and then. I like a good burger when I get the urge. Fake bewbers are fun to look at and keep me aware of women with limited esteem. I like to driver over 75mph on an open road with no traffic. I like to throw the football at the beach. Nothing like the Thanksgiving Cowboy game I can survive without all these things, but I'd rather have the option to choose whether or not I do them.
Smoking, drinking, fatty foods, elective surgery, cars, sun exposure, contact sports.....and a million other things....
Where does it end and personal responsibility come into play? Can't people make their own choices, or should you be able to make it for them? What happens when you lose something that is personal and you feel infringes on your rights?
Drinking - it easily causes more harm that good with disease and auto accidents, ban it...
Fatty foods - that chicken fried steak, hamburger, or favorite dessert is 10 times worse for your body and heart that broccoli and carrots....ban them.
Elective surgery - healthwise, there is only a downside to fake bewbers that many of you love....oh, and now that fatty foods have been banned, no need for lipo....
Cars - 75 mph governor on all vehicles, over 75mph is dangerous...
Sun - it's UV rays are dangerous, all sports are indoor...and no laying out or swimming in the sun, $1000 fine...
Contact sports - people get injured, let's all just be a nation of poofs....
Even though I don't like all things listed above, I like that they can exist. I don't drink much, but I enjoy it now and then. I like a good burger when I get the urge. Fake bewbers are fun to look at and keep me aware of women with limited esteem. I like to driver over 75mph on an open road with no traffic. I like to throw the football at the beach. Nothing like the Thanksgiving Cowboy game
I can survive without all these things, but I'd rather have the option to choose whether or not I do them.
chefjeff:
I'm not really phrasing it as a 'rights' thing anymore. I know I used the word in an earlier post, but I should have kept away from it because it's loaded, it makes people think of constitutional guarantees etc.
There is no constitutional right to smoke. We don't have guaranteed rights to privacy, clear air, health care or housing either. There are a lot of things that aren't covered by the constitution (or even laws) but are just common sense and decency.
There's no point in arguing "let the owner decide, and if you don't like his decision, go to another pool hall... if you decide to take your business there, you must submit to the owner's will"
...If that argument is valid, I can say "let the will of the state decide, and if you want to live here, you have to submit to the majority's will. If you don't like it, feel free to go to another state."
---------------
Big Poof: Do you really think the government makes anti-smoking laws because they don't want you to do dangerous or naughty things? Trust me, they don't give a shit.
See if you can figure out the important pattern here.
Smoking: There are laws limiting it.
Drinking: There are laws limiting it.
Driving: There are laws limiting it.
Contact Sports: There are laws limiting it.
What do they all have in common? In all of these cases, what you do can (and often does) affect other people.
Fatty foods: No laws limiting it.
Elective Surgery: No laws limiting it.
Sun Exposure: No laws limiting it.
What do they all have in common? You are not going to affect other people when you indulge in these things.
Get it?
I'm not really phrasing it as a 'rights' thing anymore. I know I used the word in an earlier post, but I should have kept away from it because it's loaded, it makes people think of constitutional guarantees etc.
There is no constitutional right to smoke. We don't have guaranteed rights to privacy, clear air, health care or housing either. There are a lot of things that aren't covered by the constitution (or even laws) but are just common sense and decency.
There's no point in arguing "let the owner decide, and if you don't like his decision, go to another pool hall... if you decide to take your business there, you must submit to the owner's will"
...If that argument is valid, I can say "let the will of the state decide, and if you want to live here, you have to submit to the majority's will. If you don't like it, feel free to go to another state."
---------------
Big Poof: Do you really think the government makes anti-smoking laws because they don't want you to do dangerous or naughty things? Trust me, they don't give a shit.
See if you can figure out the important pattern here.
Smoking: There are laws limiting it.
Drinking: There are laws limiting it.
Driving: There are laws limiting it.
Contact Sports: There are laws limiting it.
What do they all have in common? In all of these cases, what you do can (and often does) affect other people.
Fatty foods: No laws limiting it.
Elective Surgery: No laws limiting it.
Sun Exposure: No laws limiting it.
What do they all have in common? You are not going to affect other people when you indulge in these things.
Get it?
CreeDo said:
Each state does decide it's own course of action. It's called a State Constitution, and actually over-rides the federal laws. That is why you can legally smoke medical marijuana in Cali, yet it is still against Federal law...
Not nit-picking, just educating...
It seems like everyday someone who is obese and eats fast food or roach coach crap everyday tells me how horrible smoking is. Yeah, I know, get over it. Go have another doughnut or Big Mac. If you can be 50 lbs overweight, I should be able to smoke, drink, or do whatever the hell I want as long as I'm not affecting others.
I have no problem with banning smoking indoors. Folks should seriously STFU though when they feel the need to whine at someone smoking outdoors. People act like a little bit of smoke drifting in the air 20 feet away is putting their life in immediate peril.
I have no problem with banning smoking indoors. Folks should seriously STFU though when they feel the need to whine at someone smoking outdoors. People act like a little bit of smoke drifting in the air 20 feet away is putting their life in immediate peril.
Yokel: My understanding is that state law cannot be in direct conflict with, or even more lenient than federal law. So for example it's ok for one state to have tougher emissions standards on cars, but no state can have weaker standards.
The medical marijuana situation isn't settled and probably will not stand as it is... the state law directly conflicts with federal law so one of them will have to change eventually. Even though Proposition 215 was passed, police can (and have) prosecuted people for growing and using medical marijuana. The supreme court didn't specifically strike down prop.215, but they said it's ok for police to prosecute under federal law 'if they choose'. So basically it's legal on paper, but any cop can bust you for it if he feels like it (which I think is stupid but anyway...)
I actually didn't fully get how this worked until your post inspired the research, so I'm glad you brought it up.
-----
Bud - I got no complaints with that. You're one of the few smokers to say the magic words "as long as I'm not affecting others". I can dig that.
The medical marijuana situation isn't settled and probably will not stand as it is... the state law directly conflicts with federal law so one of them will have to change eventually. Even though Proposition 215 was passed, police can (and have) prosecuted people for growing and using medical marijuana. The supreme court didn't specifically strike down prop.215, but they said it's ok for police to prosecute under federal law 'if they choose'. So basically it's legal on paper, but any cop can bust you for it if he feels like it (which I think is stupid but anyway...)
I actually didn't fully get how this worked until your post inspired the research, so I'm glad you brought it up.
-----
Bud - I got no complaints with that. You're one of the few smokers to say the magic words "as long as I'm not affecting others". I can dig that.
CreeDo said:
Man, a lesson in what the Constitution is is in order here...
I don't have much time right now, so I'll just touch on the gross misunderstanding of the USC.
The USConstitution is NOT a set of laws for the people to follow. It is NOT a listing of the rights of the people. Not even close to that.
The US Constitution is a rulebook for the Federal Government to follow. It is restrictions on the government, not the people.
Cripes...just what the fug are they teaching in publik skools that so many have this document backwards?
Now, that negates all this "you don't have a right to smoke" garbage.
More later, meanwhile, read about proberty rights and their importance to the prosperity and freedom of the world (and pool halls).
Jeff Livingston
CreeDo said:
Wow...where did you get that equation?
Business is a mutual exchange of values. A pool hall owner exchanges his pool tables' rental for customers' money. Each customer chooses to engage in this transaction and each pool hall owner chooses to engage in the transaction with a customer. Or not. It is voluntary and mutual and beneficial to both or else, NO DEAL. Each can choose no deal. That is how freedom of association works. It takes no vote of the majority, no "will of the state" or no guns. A simple trade, with both sides benefitting. Beautiful, man, beautiful.
Your example of being voted off the island is the EXACT OPPOSITE of liberty and the design of the USA fed govt.. It is a great example, however, of why WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY, BUT A REPUBLIC.* The Constitution explains exactly how the government republic is supposed to run. Majority vote was very restricted in order to make sure that scenarios such as yours could never happen. How you think MY position reflects that violence, when I explained the exact opposite shows your lack of understanding of property rights (or my poor explanation of those).
Jeff Livingston
* Yeah, to those who understand the USC, this is no longer true, but the idea of it is valid, even if the inplementation of it has been destroyed by the cretins in office and their ignorant supporters.