Just for US players
- Thread starter Johnnyt
- Start date
Edwin
made some good suggestions.
Some of the arguing is unnecessary because we are only talking 1, maybe 2 tournaments a year for only US players. No One intends to shut out international players out of all our tournaments or tours. We are only talking about reserving 1 or 2 for US players only.
Right now, what advantages do you see for our Pro Male Players? other than we probably have more up and down tournaments than other countries.
Other countries help support their players in some way, but ours does not.
(Remember the Russians paying their Olympic athletes to train).
And I agree, Europe doesn't pay worth a hoot for their tournaments, especially considering the competition level.
The sponsor problem goes back to 'exposure'. They don't feel it reaches enough people to be effective and get enough of a payback on it.
made some good suggestions.
Some of the arguing is unnecessary because we are only talking 1, maybe 2 tournaments a year for only US players. No One intends to shut out international players out of all our tournaments or tours. We are only talking about reserving 1 or 2 for US players only.
Right now, what advantages do you see for our Pro Male Players? other than we probably have more up and down tournaments than other countries.
Other countries help support their players in some way, but ours does not.
(Remember the Russians paying their Olympic athletes to train).
And I agree, Europe doesn't pay worth a hoot for their tournaments, especially considering the competition level.
The sponsor problem goes back to 'exposure'. They don't feel it reaches enough people to be effective and get enough of a payback on it.
Johnny, That's it in a nutshell
Johnny,
That is the deal in a nutshell. Hate to mention the initials but the IPT could have made US pool with better ethics and a better business model. We need dollars but not at the cost of turning the pool world inside out and upside down.
These tours could further fragment things. However structured correctly and scheduled to fit in with the existing major events they could have the opposite effect. Despite claims to the contrary, I think conflicts with major events by a recent short lived tour took great effort to be created and were nothing more than a power struggle.
I believe getting pool into the schools is a great idea for a variety of reasons and may create some major sponsorships down the road. The parent's money would still be basically "inside" money though. If we add another player for every new cue or three and the other funds a player spends we have basically only maintained the status quo.
Edwin,
Absolutely great to hear from someone that has been there before us. Our two issues here may be lack of general public interest at this point and what I believe will be the much higher costs of air time. Perhaps someone like the BCA spear heading this could make it happen.
If we find a way to put pool on a strong footing here in the US in the long term it will benefit all pool players from everywhere.
Hu
Johnnyt said:
Johnny,
That is the deal in a nutshell. Hate to mention the initials but the IPT could have made US pool with better ethics and a better business model. We need dollars but not at the cost of turning the pool world inside out and upside down.
Creedo said:
These tours could further fragment things. However structured correctly and scheduled to fit in with the existing major events they could have the opposite effect. Despite claims to the contrary, I think conflicts with major events by a recent short lived tour took great effort to be created and were nothing more than a power struggle.
I believe getting pool into the schools is a great idea for a variety of reasons and may create some major sponsorships down the road. The parent's money would still be basically "inside" money though. If we add another player for every new cue or three and the other funds a player spends we have basically only maintained the status quo.
bandito said:
Edwin,
Absolutely great to hear from someone that has been there before us. Our two issues here may be lack of general public interest at this point and what I believe will be the much higher costs of air time. Perhaps someone like the BCA spear heading this could make it happen.
If we find a way to put pool on a strong footing here in the US in the long term it will benefit all pool players from everywhere.
Hu
I actually encourage more than 1 or 2/year. Have an Atlantic Nationals, Central Nationals, Midwest Nationals and Pacific Nationals. Then the top 16 of each region will have a US National Championship plus 64 spots for qualifiers (total of 128 players). The Regional tournaments can recruit hotels/motels with national chains and airlines to sponsor the top 16 of each regional championship.Snapshot9 said:
I was also thinking more of adjusting the prize money as some sort of solution to encourage local participation yet make it harder for outsiders to join. Lower the top-end and increase the bottom end of the prize structure (spread out the pot money). If the Prize money isn't big enough to cover expenditure then high expense international players opt to not attend. I think that the adjusted prize structure is more local friendly (subtle message to non-locals).
You've got to start somewhere.
Billiard Package or Streaming
I don’t have any sport packages with my cable. I only have the movie channels…Showtime, HBO, and several more. I can’t find how much Brighthouse Cable charges for, let’s say bowling or tennis packages. I sure would be willing drop a few movie channels to get a billiards package.
I’m very lo-tech so I don’t know if someone producing pool tournaments to show live on your PC would go over or not. I don’t know how much it would cost to produce them and show them with good streaming. I also don’t know what kind of a PC one would need to watch them comfortably. Would you need a very expensive PC? Johnnyt
I don’t have any sport packages with my cable. I only have the movie channels…Showtime, HBO, and several more. I can’t find how much Brighthouse Cable charges for, let’s say bowling or tennis packages. I sure would be willing drop a few movie channels to get a billiards package.
I’m very lo-tech so I don’t know if someone producing pool tournaments to show live on your PC would go over or not. I don’t know how much it would cost to produce them and show them with good streaming. I also don’t know what kind of a PC one would need to watch them comfortably. Would you need a very expensive PC? Johnnyt
ShootingArts said:
I don't know about Poland but saying if you were born in Mexico you would be looking to move is NOT a racist comment. There are 10's of millions of Mexicans who were born in Mexico living in the United States because of conditions in Mexico. If I had been born in Mexico, under the conditions many of them have to endure, I would probably want to move also. It has nothing to do with racism. (I can't believe I am explaining this.)
The Dutch Championship (Holland) is open for all players, however, they have qualifiers with no (or little) pricemoney several weeks before, so it's not interesting for anyone outside Holland to join this tournament.
I also believe that the idea of 4 qualification tournaments, with a "Masters" for the top players would be a good idea. (96 players in average paying 200 $ each to compete, then you've got 75 000 $ in pricemoney in total before sponsors. Use 25 000 $ for hotel costs ++ for the qualified players, and you've got 50 000 $ in pricemoney for the Masters without sponsors).
Personally I believe that more than 96 x 4 players would be interested in playing in the American Championship, and I think it would be easier to get sponsors and also tv-broadcast for such a tournament.
I also believe that the idea of 4 qualification tournaments, with a "Masters" for the top players would be a good idea. (96 players in average paying 200 $ each to compete, then you've got 75 000 $ in pricemoney in total before sponsors. Use 25 000 $ for hotel costs ++ for the qualified players, and you've got 50 000 $ in pricemoney for the Masters without sponsors).
Personally I believe that more than 96 x 4 players would be interested in playing in the American Championship, and I think it would be easier to get sponsors and also tv-broadcast for such a tournament.
You may need to quit thinking big at this time. Forget about the ESPN and the major networks, their airtime is pretty booked and rates are unreachable for our industry. Do a google on TFC (The Filipino Channel) as I think that theycan be viewed through subscription from anywhere in the world. Give me your thoughts.ShootingArts said:
Exactly!ShootingArts said:
I think they're in DirecTV. I was thinkng of discussing with them an all-billiards channel since they're still adding channels/contents. It also says here http://www.abs-cbni.com/about_us/index.html that they inject contect through the Philippines or the USA. That I understand to mean that tournament contents from the USA can be aired live through them. Tell me if I understand this correctly.Johnnyt said:
Secondly, viewership data from this company can be used when making a presentation or submitting a proposal to prospective sponsors who target specific markets.
TFC may be easy to convince at adding a billiard Channel since their current subscribed viewers are known to be billiard crazy.
I was going by what it said in the link I provided that they add contents from the Philippines AND the USA. So that possibly can mean live content airing. If airtime is purchased, whether in a newly formed billiard channel or existing channel then I don't think that airing live can't be available. Additional expense for an OB Van, to do live coerage, wil be incurred but these can be rented there.Johnnyt said:
inside comment
Wayne,
First off his comment was a slur against a nation not against a race. He applied the much abused term racism to someone else's comments about people from other nations or regions therefore I pointed out his comments were of exactly the same type.
All Mexicans aren't wanting to leave so when you lump them into one basket and furthermore state that your nation is better than Poland or Mexico that is indeed a nationalistic comment. He defines such comments as racism. Note the difference in your comments which aren't racist or even a slur against a nation. You make it very clear that you are talking about some of the people there, quite a difference from lumping them all in one basket.
All of this garbage on this thread is simply because I caught him with his pants down while he was attacking someone else on another thread. Hopefully this thread will focus on the constructive posts. I really like the ideas that Bandito has just put forward. Those danged Filipinos are leading the way again!
Hu
wayne said:
Wayne,
First off his comment was a slur against a nation not against a race. He applied the much abused term racism to someone else's comments about people from other nations or regions therefore I pointed out his comments were of exactly the same type.
All Mexicans aren't wanting to leave so when you lump them into one basket and furthermore state that your nation is better than Poland or Mexico that is indeed a nationalistic comment. He defines such comments as racism. Note the difference in your comments which aren't racist or even a slur against a nation. You make it very clear that you are talking about some of the people there, quite a difference from lumping them all in one basket.
All of this garbage on this thread is simply because I caught him with his pants down while he was attacking someone else on another thread. Hopefully this thread will focus on the constructive posts. I really like the ideas that Bandito has just put forward. Those danged Filipinos are leading the way again!
Hu
out of time for now
I am out of time to research this for now. I have been burning the candle at both ends for a few days and have to sleep a little before a late night pass by the pool hall. However, you are correct. The cheapest air time we can buy and reach our target base would work to get a start and then we could hope to climb through the ranks of sponsors and networks from there.
I note that your pool has succeeded in getting sponsors outside the industry. That is what we need to get US pool really rolling. There is one place I think it might be worth pitching these events possibly for a profit instead of having to pay for air time however. VS is a channel/network which has recently changed it's focus from the outdoors to individual sports. VS might be the perfect match for pool. They are looking for the kind of competition pool offers. They are also available as part of common subscription packages so we would get wider exposure than if people have to subscribe to a "pool channel" that is off by itself and you only purchase pool events for your money spent.
I will read up on TFC when I get a chance. I'd like to know if I can get it, even with no US events on it yet. It may be the window we need to get started too.
Hu
bandido said:
I am out of time to research this for now. I have been burning the candle at both ends for a few days and have to sleep a little before a late night pass by the pool hall. However, you are correct. The cheapest air time we can buy and reach our target base would work to get a start and then we could hope to climb through the ranks of sponsors and networks from there.
I note that your pool has succeeded in getting sponsors outside the industry. That is what we need to get US pool really rolling. There is one place I think it might be worth pitching these events possibly for a profit instead of having to pay for air time however. VS is a channel/network which has recently changed it's focus from the outdoors to individual sports. VS might be the perfect match for pool. They are looking for the kind of competition pool offers. They are also available as part of common subscription packages so we would get wider exposure than if people have to subscribe to a "pool channel" that is off by itself and you only purchase pool events for your money spent.
I will read up on TFC when I get a chance. I'd like to know if I can get it, even with no US events on it yet. It may be the window we need to get started too.
Hu
Good going! I threw in the TFC idea mainly to widen the tunnel vision cast toward the major sports channels and networks. Now that you start looking at other possibilities, as I'm not aware of these other channels, then congratulations.ShootingArts said:
With regards to the part of your post that I highlighted:
It is easier to get a "yes" from a target sponsor if they see a "contract for purchased airtime" included in sponsorship package that is presented to them than just seeing a mention of plans to purchase airtime. Something concrete versus "just a possibility". Just like in any business venture, there's confidence if everybody antes-up.
wayne said:
I can't beleive it either, I almost did then just fell about laughing and thought why the hell am I wasting my time with this garbage! I then realised I came up with 3 reasons in the other thread as to why I hate racism, I mean I actually felt I had to justify it lol!
The logic behind his posts is so off the wall I don't even feel the need to trawl through posts and show how different they are. I'm just comfortable that most people can see it for themselves. But thanks for taking the time to write what even I couldn't be bothered to Wayne.
Over to the master debator.
actually I'm quite content
Actually I am quite content that I have given you enough rope to hang yourself with your false statements about me and others. As you say, everyone else can read and make up their own minds if they choose. I only wasted my time to prove to you that you can't run off everyone you choose with your harassing tactics like you did to a lady in the last post. You, not you and fifty, not you and five.
Well I guess I do find it fun to play pin the tail on the donkey sometimes too!
I would play your game and refer to you as master baiter but in truth you aren't even a ranking amateur. No surprise since you can't even spell debater. As I mentioned earlier you have simply gotten boring with reruns while the constructive content of the thread has gotten very interesting. Reviewing your posts I note that you don't participate in much of anything constructive however.
Hu
TheOne said:Over to the master debator.
Actually I am quite content that I have given you enough rope to hang yourself with your false statements about me and others. As you say, everyone else can read and make up their own minds if they choose. I only wasted my time to prove to you that you can't run off everyone you choose with your harassing tactics like you did to a lady in the last post. You, not you and fifty, not you and five.
Well I guess I do find it fun to play pin the tail on the donkey sometimes too!
I would play your game and refer to you as master baiter but in truth you aren't even a ranking amateur. No surprise since you can't even spell debater. As I mentioned earlier you have simply gotten boring with reruns while the constructive content of the thread has gotten very interesting. Reviewing your posts I note that you don't participate in much of anything constructive however.
Hu
NYC cue dude
Banned
unfortunately, there has been a lot of misinformation here in this thread. There are very few "foreign" players that are being sponsored by their goverment. Perhaps some asian countries help their top player.... but that would mean that less than 10 (i'm being generous here) players in the world are govt supported.
One of the europeans spoke up on this thread, and he is right. The top events there pay in the 5k to 7k range, and the average euro tour top prize is less than 4k. I don't see the europeans keeping americans out of their events, other than the european championships, but even this most prestigious event, has NO prize money. I'm sure each country has their own national championship, but you can be sure their bounty is paltry. Should an event like that be held here in the US, I'm sure no one would object.
Someone did mention that most foreign players have their "paperwork" in order, regarding work visas etc. I will admit tat this is completely UNTRUE. In fact,I only know of one foreign player who has the right to compete here. And I know dozens of the top european players. Not sure about the Asians and pinoys (although the ones I do know, who shall be nameless, but stars non the less), ALL come here on TOURIST VISAS!!!!! technically, they are not allowed to compete here.
As a reasonable approach, limiting the fields to Americans only, albeit very patriotic, will ultimately hurt our sport in the long run, and will never happen. I am all for our govt in enforcing our worker immigration policies, and that would pretty much meet your objective OVERNIGHT. I would speculate that an overwhelming majority of all pool players, including Americans, don't pay any taxes on their winnings. Foreign players forced to obtain work visas, would essentially push them into a system they want no part of.
But the last reason this would be an ntenable arrangement, is that the sponsors, and promoters would never consider it. Todays top talent in the game, whether you like it or not, are foreign players. Just take a look at the next advertisement you see for a major pool event. 3 out of 4 names listed as interest drwing participants, will be foreign. Why, because the promoters and sponsors want it that way.
I can sya for sure, that should pressure like this, somehow develop, and "force" existing tournaments to conform, those events would go overseas. Personally speaking, there would be no way that the event I put on (the world straight pool championships), could be american only. In fact, i wouldn't put on any event, that would diminish the overall product by excluding the best players in the world.
Sorry for the long post, but I think I can safely say, that the major pool sponsors (american companies btw, that voluntarily choose to sponsor foreign players over american players), espn, and myself, lol, wouldn't even consider this.
Perhaps a one shot deal event, as a USA championships, held annually, and with all the games represented with a championship, could work, but beyond that it's just cue rattling (similar to north koreas sabre rattling)
regards
rg
One of the europeans spoke up on this thread, and he is right. The top events there pay in the 5k to 7k range, and the average euro tour top prize is less than 4k. I don't see the europeans keeping americans out of their events, other than the european championships, but even this most prestigious event, has NO prize money. I'm sure each country has their own national championship, but you can be sure their bounty is paltry. Should an event like that be held here in the US, I'm sure no one would object.
Someone did mention that most foreign players have their "paperwork" in order, regarding work visas etc. I will admit tat this is completely UNTRUE. In fact,I only know of one foreign player who has the right to compete here. And I know dozens of the top european players. Not sure about the Asians and pinoys (although the ones I do know, who shall be nameless, but stars non the less), ALL come here on TOURIST VISAS!!!!! technically, they are not allowed to compete here.
As a reasonable approach, limiting the fields to Americans only, albeit very patriotic, will ultimately hurt our sport in the long run, and will never happen. I am all for our govt in enforcing our worker immigration policies, and that would pretty much meet your objective OVERNIGHT. I would speculate that an overwhelming majority of all pool players, including Americans, don't pay any taxes on their winnings. Foreign players forced to obtain work visas, would essentially push them into a system they want no part of.
But the last reason this would be an ntenable arrangement, is that the sponsors, and promoters would never consider it. Todays top talent in the game, whether you like it or not, are foreign players. Just take a look at the next advertisement you see for a major pool event. 3 out of 4 names listed as interest drwing participants, will be foreign. Why, because the promoters and sponsors want it that way.
I can sya for sure, that should pressure like this, somehow develop, and "force" existing tournaments to conform, those events would go overseas. Personally speaking, there would be no way that the event I put on (the world straight pool championships), could be american only. In fact, i wouldn't put on any event, that would diminish the overall product by excluding the best players in the world.
Sorry for the long post, but I think I can safely say, that the major pool sponsors (american companies btw, that voluntarily choose to sponsor foreign players over american players), espn, and myself, lol, wouldn't even consider this.
Perhaps a one shot deal event, as a USA championships, held annually, and with all the games represented with a championship, could work, but beyond that it's just cue rattling (similar to north koreas sabre rattling)
regards
rg
Don't you mean lynch yourself?
Just to clarify, I posted two posts which I considered relevant. A real world example, for some reason YOU didn't like it and started flaming..."Common sense is very uncommon as you commonly prove!"
In the interest of the thread I tried to agree to disagree with you but you continued to flame me long after I'd left the thread. Then you brought over quotes from the previous thread yet you accuse ME of following YOU here!
What is a real shame is originally there was many more posters that could have added real quality to this discussion but like I they just bailed when they see people like you calling people idiots, manure etc. I don't consider that intelligent debating, actually to me that's boring. My problem is I tend to spot these situations much slower that my peers and tend to hang around longer than I should!
The one thing we do agree on though is that I am also happy to let others judge also. IMO what I said is a million miles from these type of comments:
"Personally, I'd like to see the European robots leave the American pool scene. They're boring, have absolutely no personality, and don't do a damn thing to promote pool here in the States. They're pretty good at pocking the good old American greenbacks, though, but they're bad business when it comes to elevating the sport. All of them look exactly like Buckingham Guards when they're hitting 'em, and off table, they have the same sour disposition. It's disgusting."
"none of the "invited" American players wanted to go overseas to ride camels."
"foreign aliens"
For the record I wans't the first to describe these type of comments as racist or zenophobic and I'm sure I won't be the last. I note YOU are the only person to desribe my comment as racist.
Now I notice Randy has posted some excellent points, can we get back to the topic at hand and leave the race issue to one side now?
Regards
Just to clarify, I posted two posts which I considered relevant. A real world example, for some reason YOU didn't like it and started flaming..."Common sense is very uncommon as you commonly prove!"
In the interest of the thread I tried to agree to disagree with you but you continued to flame me long after I'd left the thread. Then you brought over quotes from the previous thread yet you accuse ME of following YOU here!
What is a real shame is originally there was many more posters that could have added real quality to this discussion but like I they just bailed when they see people like you calling people idiots, manure etc. I don't consider that intelligent debating, actually to me that's boring. My problem is I tend to spot these situations much slower that my peers and tend to hang around longer than I should!
The one thing we do agree on though is that I am also happy to let others judge also. IMO what I said is a million miles from these type of comments:
"Personally, I'd like to see the European robots leave the American pool scene. They're boring, have absolutely no personality, and don't do a damn thing to promote pool here in the States. They're pretty good at pocking the good old American greenbacks, though, but they're bad business when it comes to elevating the sport. All of them look exactly like Buckingham Guards when they're hitting 'em, and off table, they have the same sour disposition. It's disgusting."
"none of the "invited" American players wanted to go overseas to ride camels."
"foreign aliens"
For the record I wans't the first to describe these type of comments as racist or zenophobic and I'm sure I won't be the last. I note YOU are the only person to desribe my comment as racist.
Now I notice Randy has posted some excellent points, can we get back to the topic at hand and leave the race issue to one side now?
Regards
ShootingArts said:Actually I am quite content that I have given you enough rope to hang yourself with your false statements about me and others. As you say, everyone else can read and make up their own minds if they choose. I only wasted my time to prove to you that you can't run off everyone you choose with your harassing tactics like you did to a lady in the last post. You, not you and fifty, not you and five.
Well I guess I do find it fun to play pin the tail on the donkey sometimes too!
I would play your game and refer to you as master baiter but in truth you aren't even a ranking amateur. No surprise since you can't even spell debater. As I mentioned earlier you have simply gotten boring with reruns while the constructive content of the thread has gotten very interesting. Reviewing your posts I note that you don't participate in much of anything constructive however.
Hu