Just for US players

[GADawg]

Just doing a quick look-up of money that went out of the county in a year is about $5,000,000. I didn't count any IPT money either. If I spent a few hours looking more up I can see where it probably would be more like seven or eight million going out. Even at $5,000,000...thats 50 $100,000 tournaments we could have here... or break it up more to 200 $25,000 tournaments. You can't tell me that wouldn't help the US players earn more of a livelyhood. Johnnyt

I'm having trouble with these numbers. $5,000,000 a year is almost $100,000 a week. You mean to tell that foreign pool players are winning $100,000 every week in US tournaments?

Where are these tournmanents that are paying that much and why can't the US players win them?

 

[Johnnyt]

I'm having trouble with these numbers. $5,000,000 a year is almost $100,000 a week. You mean to tell that foreign pool players are winning $100,000 every week in US tournaments?

Where are these tournmanents that are paying that much and why can't the US players win them?

I don't know what I did when I was adding the non-US players up yesterday. I never should try anything like that without my first cup of coffee. They take away $1,000,000 a year...not $5,000,000...sorry about that. But that's still a lot of money that would go into US pro pockets. Johnnyt

 

[VIProfessor]

Protectionism at what cost? I can certainly agree with holding a U.S. championship that is limited to U.S. residents, but limiting participation in professional tournaments to Americans only would only work to the detriment of the sport here in America. As sjm so eloquently noted, our goal should be to participate in the global popularity and development of the sport rather than to be isolated from it. I would say that our efforts should be focused on raising the level of organization here at home so that our players can truly be on an equal footing with those of any country in the world.

It has been noted many times on this forum and elswhere that the Filipinos have enhanced and changed the way 9-ball is played, particularly in terms of using inside english and precision kicking. Would it benefit our players to cut them off from exposure to what other players around the world are doing? I think not.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I don't know what I did when I was adding the non-US players up yesterday. I never should try anything like that without my first cup of coffee. They take away $1,000,000 a year...not $5,000,000...sorry about that. But that's still a lot of money that would go into US pro pockets. Johnnyt

Well, I counted perhaps half of $1M unless you count players who won less than $10,000 in all tournaments for the year.

How much money did Americans win in foreign tournaments?

 

[Johnnyt]

Well, I counted perhaps half of $1M unless you count players who won less than $10,000 in all tournaments for the year.

How much money did Americans win in foreign tournaments?

I don't care. You do the math if you want to know. Johnnyt

 

[TheOne]

In a round about way this kind of thinking almost caused the end of Professional Snooker. Although Snooker didn't come out and ban foriegn players from playing on the Pro Tour (or trying to qualify for it) in the UK they made it nearly impossible to do.

Every tournament was based in the UK and the top ranked players (mostly British and Irish) were protected. For example in the early 90's a top 16 ranked player would earn approx. $80,000 and x number of ranking points if they didn't win a game! They were seeded into the TV stages of each ranking event which made it extreemly difficult for any player to break through and take their spot. Add to that the difficulties of travelling to the UK, or living their without being able to work for a whole year or two and u can see why few foreigners made the grade.

What happened? The ass fell out the sport when the government banned tobacco sponsorship. Instead of being able to search the whole world for new sponsors Snooker was pretty much limited to the UK because most the players and coverage was UK based.

Now they have realised their mistakes of course and it seems that Asia might be Snookers big hope, players like Ding have made Snooker hugely popular in China. They but a proven business man at the helm and took most of the marketing responsibility (from what I believe) from the ex players. Shanghai has just been added to the ranking event calendar (in addition to the Beijing open) and I believe the ultimate aim is to add more and more international events.

When you have a diverse international field of players your potential sponsorship and TV market increases dramatically, in theory so should the rewards to the players!

 

[ShootingArts]

theory vs reality

When you have a diverse international field of players your potential sponsorship and TV market increases dramatically, in theory so should the rewards to the players!

Theory is a wonderful thing. Reality isn't nearly as pretty. With all of these worldwide sponsors out there since the dawn of the television age, pool doesn't have a decent sponsor and never has had one invest big money. Count the number of Nascar teams in a single race. Any one of those team sponsors would dwarf everything any sponsor puts into US pool. The same is no doubt true of formula one and indy car teams.

Bottom line is that what we are doing isn't working for the sport and it isn't working for the individual US players. People can duck and dodge around these points but there they sit. The question is do we sit on our duffs or try to change things?

Hu

 

[Becky]

the silly question, why don't charge more entry fee to those foreign players than US players. Some of them come here to get famous so they can make more money outside the pool tournament.

 

[TheOne]

Theory is a wonderful thing. Reality isn't nearly as pretty. With all of these worldwide sponsors out there since the dawn of the television age, pool doesn't have a decent sponsor and never has had one invest big money. Count the number of Nascar teams in a single race. Any one of those team sponsors would dwarf everything any sponsor puts into US pool. The same is no doubt true of formula one and indy car teams.

Bottom line is that what we are doing isn't working for the sport and it isn't working for the individual US players. People can duck and dodge around these points but there they sit. The question is do we sit on our duffs or try to change things?

Hu

Well its not really theory, its common sense. Do you think the Chinese would sponsor a Snooker ranking event without any Chinese players in it?

How would banning foreign players help American pool become bigger and better?

 

[ShootingArts]

Common sense is very uncommon

Common sense is very uncommon as you commonly prove!

We have had international players over here since long before the dawn of television. I can't recall a single international sponsor putting anywhere near what the foreign players take out of US pool back into it. Despite the attraction you claim these international fields have for international sponsors they have never put any significant amount into US pool that I know of. Tell me about all of the foreign sponsors and the money they are pouring into US pool right now or in the past then I might think there is some common sense to your theory.

Well its not really theory, its common sense. Do you think the Chinese would sponsor a Snooker ranking event without any Chinese players in it?

How would banning foreign players help American pool become bigger and better?

Not one of my posts on this thread or anywhere else has suggested banning international competitors from the US. You would rather argue than read or you would know that. I do suggest a US men's tour and a US women's tour, restricted tours as are common in many countries and areas. As I stated in my earlier posts in this very thread, please try to keep up, the goal is to make it at least feasible for young people to pursue a career in pool in the US. Right now playing the lotto is probably a more feasible career path.

Hu

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I can't recall a single international sponsor putting anywhere near what the foreign players take out of US pool back into it. ...

Cuetec? Simonis? Aramith? Granito? OIS? The other cue and table companies that manufacture in foreign countries? Pretty much all of the sponsorship for the WPC? I think sponsorship from those companies is comparable to sponsorship from "American" companies.

 

[CreeDo]

Pool's a bit weird, it seems to have evolved with lots of foreign involvement... maybe not 50 years ago but the modern version of it. So now it's not uncommon for a player from another country to fly in to play in one specific tournament, or to move here to make it their career. Now that the 'cat is out of the bag' it'd seem weird to try to change things.

I'm not much of a sports fan but I get the impression that this kind of thing (the travel + moving) is a lot less common in other sports. What's the fundamental difference that makes it like that? Is it the fact that other big american sports have a single established governing body like the nfl/nhl/mlb? The fact that those are team sports and fundamentally more popular with fans? The fact that they have a single 'real' championship vs. pool's half dozen+ "majors"? Or maybe I'm way off base and there are lots of foreign players who travel and move to play in other US sports. Does that happen in golf much? Golf seems to be the closest comparison but it still seems different.

I guess all these are pretty old questions, maybe what I'm trying to ask is... do other sports do better because they're closed? Maybe the stuff they do better than pool's governing bodies encourages a closed field? Or are these two things unrelated and it's apples and oranges?

People are talking like some authority is saying americans can't hold closed tournaments, like it's illegal... and it's unfair that other countries are allowed and we aren't. As far as I know it's legal and we're free to do this at any time. So why aren't we? Some people on the board have been part of 5-digit payout tournaments, maybe they can explain why nobody's tried it yet.

PS: I saw something about 'your odds are better playing the lotto than in trying to make pool as a career path'... not to nitpick but doesn't that apply to baseball, football, basketball, etc? Just asking.

PPS: Nice point by Mr. Jewett

 

[TheOne]

Common sense is very uncommon as you commonly prove!

We have had international players over here since long before the dawn of television. I can't recall a single international sponsor putting anywhere near what the foreign players take out of US pool back into it. Despite the attraction you claim these international fields have for international sponsors they have never put any significant amount into US pool that I know of. Tell me about all of the foreign sponsors and the money they are pouring into US pool right now or in the past then I might think there is some common sense to your theory.




Not one of my posts on this thread or anywhere else has suggested banning international competitors from the US. You would rather argue than read or you would know that. I do suggest a US men's tour and a US women's tour, restricted tours as are common in many countries and areas. As I stated in my earlier posts in this very thread, please try to keep up, the goal is to make it at least feasible for young people to pursue a career in pool in the US. Right now playing the lotto is probably a more feasible career path.

Hu

See bobs post above, but anyway it seems clear from your posts that the topic of this thread isnt your agenda so I'll leave u to find somebody else to argue with

Hope the restricted tour that doesn't ban anyone goes well

 

[bud green]

I like the idea of ONE good tournement for US players only. For ALL other tournements, I want anyone who can play to be able to show their stuff.

I can't even imagine not being able to see guys like Efren, Thorsten, Engert (490+ at 14.1 on a 9 footer, are you kidding me?!),etc... if we started banning them from most tournements.

Definately bad for the game in general.

**Damn, The One, your avatar is a head turner. I'm surprised the internet police haven't pulled you over for that one yet...

 

[ShootingArts]

sponsorship

Cuetec? Simonis? Aramith? Granito? OIS? The other cue and table companies that manufacture in foreign countries? Pretty much all of the sponsorship for the WPC? I think sponsorship from those companies is comparable to sponsorship from "American" companies.

Bob,

I haven't kept up with NASCAR sponsorships however years ago the major teams had ten million dollar a year sponsors and there are dozens of major teams. Consider what one team's sponsor could do for US pool should they take an interest.

I could debate with you as to which companies are actually US companies and which are foreign but it doesn't really matter, US pool doesn't have a major sponsor foreign or domestic. All of the international players for decades haven't changed that. Having a couple of US tours for US citizens or legal residents that are seeking citizenship would have zero impact on the major sponsors we have managed to attract to US pool because to be blunt there are no major sponsors.

I am glad that we have industry sponsors or we would have nothing. However take a good look at the companies you mentioned. You are far more knowledgeable than I am in this area, what would you guess their total combined sponsorship of US pool to be? In the overall scheme of things we are a minor activity with minor sponsorship. Without meaning to offend the people who have brought US pool to where it is today, the current route shows no signs of making pool competition in the USA a viable career for the top one to two hundred US players. Are even a dozen US men players making a living through competition only?

I think we have to bring talented young players into US pool for it to have a chance to become successful on the scale I hope to see. As I said earlier, I can't picture any parent encouraging a child with great eye/hand coordination and the mind needed to be a top pool player to come into the game. The same child has many more opportunities in the US offering far greater rewards. We need to at least offer a decent living to a gifted youngster if they can be one of the top one hundred men or women.

Giving young players a place to develop and survive while doing it might produce a player that attracts major media attention. Sponsors are likely to follow media attention. It is really a Catch-22 deal; without media attention there are no outside the industry sponsors putting major dollars in, without major dollars in the sport there is no media attention.

Many are bemoaning the fact that the rest of the world seems to be turning out better pool players at the moment than the US is. One point is that they are comparing the entire remainder of the world to the US but the rest of the story is that the US isn't lacking in gifted individuals, it is that they aren't playing pool because even if they become a top pool player in the US, the rewards are relatively modest.

Hu

 

[TheOne]

I like the idea of ONE good tournement for US players only. For ALL other tournements, I want anyone who can play to be able to show their stuff.

I can't even imagine not being able to see guys like Efren, Thorsten, Engert (490+ at 14.1 on a 9 footer, are you kidding me?!),etc... if we started banning them from most tournements.

Definately bad for the game in general.

**Damn, The One, your avatar is a head turner. I'm surprised the internet police haven't pulled you over for that one yet...

I'm sure some spoil sport will complain eventually, they normally do!

 

[ShootingArts]

minimum wage

PS: I saw something about 'your odds are better playing the lotto than in trying to make pool as a career path'... not to nitpick but doesn't that apply to baseball, football, basketball, etc? Just asking.

PPS: Nice point by Mr. Jewett

Check out what the lowest paid pro player in the major leagues of those sports are making. You can even make a living in those sports minor leagues.

A co-workers father was a corporate executive making serious dollars and being a good family man he put all his children through college and did all the things to give them a good life, putting aside his dreams of playing golf professionally. After retirement, with his finances in order he tried the Senior Tour. As a second ranker or also ran he made more money a year from Senior Tour competitions than he had been making as a high level corporate executive.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

The proof is in your every post as to who is seeking an argument

See bobs post above, but anyway it seems clear from your posts that the topic of this thread isnt your agenda so I'll leave u to find somebody else to argue with

Hope the restricted tour that doesn't ban anyone goes well

Hmmmmmmmm

You are the one with the avatar and signature image in every post that was either changed or put there just to goad one other poster. Who is trying to provoke flames? Once again your own posts come back to bite you in your butt.

Every one of my posts in this thread prior to this one has been on topic, far more than you can say. Your games with me on this thread are just because I made an ass out of you and pointed out your nationalistic "racist" comments that you made while condemning similar comments of other people that you supposedly took offense at in another thread. You can chase me around the forums but you will remain the one looking silly.

Hu

PS You still seem unwilling to comprehend simple text or incapable of reading comprehension, no doubt why you contradict yourself in your postings. Restricted tours are just that, how many women's events have you played in? Wait!! That may be more information than I want to know.

 

[TheOne]

Hmmmmmmmm

You are the one with the avatar and signature image in every post that was either changed or put there just to goad one other poster. Who is trying to provoke flames? Once again your own posts come back to bite you in your butt.

Every one of my posts in this thread prior to this one has been on topic, far more than you can say. Your games with me on this thread are just because I made an ass out of you and pointed out your nationalistic "racist" comments that you made while condemning similar comments of other people that you supposedly took offense at in another thread. You can chase me around the forums but you will remain the one looking silly.

Hu

PS You still seem unwilling to comprehend simple text or incapable of reading comprehension, no doubt why you contradict yourself in your postings. Restricted tours are just that, how many women's events have you played in? Wait!! That may be more information than I want to know.

My avatar was an attempt to inject some much needed humor, some people still have a tumor in their humor.

I didn't even realise you was in the other thread until u singled me out in this one. I simply agree with many other posters, the majority in this thread but I don't see u attacking anyone but me. Have I insulted u in this thread yet?

Anyway you got me, you're right I'm wrong, I can't read, I can't shoot, I'm a big wet sausage!

lets agree to disagree!

 

[CreeDo]

I stand corrected, I knew there's a minor league and whatnot in baseball but I didn't know it paid well. About the golf, isn't even the senior tour packed with worldbeaters and you gotta be awfully good to be 2nd ranker?

Also does gambling money factor into this or are we talking strictly IRS-reportable income? I guess other games have gambling income too... I'm just wondering if pool is the equivalent of having a waiter-style job with low pay on paper but decent pay after 'tips'. I know some great players never even tried to make gambling part of their income.