Just what is Phenolic?

RBC

RBC

Deceased
With all this talk about the new rulings by the BCA Pool League, I see allot of miss-information being passed around, and I thought I might try to clear a few things up.

I was at the tournament and spoke to a number of the referees right after the meeting at which this was discussed. All of them described the rule the same way, "nothing that touches a cue ball can be made of phenolic". So, it does not apply to cues of any kind, just the tip (obviously it is what touches the cue ball).

Now, what is phenolic. The definition is "a thermosetting resin". So what does that mean? Thermoset materials, once set, cannot be remelted or returned to their previous state. Thermoplastic materials can be remelted and reformed over and over again. For example, epoxy is a thermoset. Once it cures, you can't change it back to the liquid it was before.

All the tips we see being used for break or jump cues, which are not leather, are a phenolic of some sort. I believe this includes the white diamond too. Some of these materials use different resins, and some use different substrates, but they are all phenolics.

So why the ban? Quite simply they damage the cue balls. The G-10 material is not only harder than the cue ball, but it also uses fiberglass as the substrate. It will actually scuff the cue ball very badly on a miss hit. The other materials can fracture the cue balls. The WPA rules have always stated that you cannot use any material that causes damage to the equipment.

What are the alternatives? Hard leather is the best choice. We chose the Samsara Break tip for our new OB Break Cues and OB Break Shafts, (available very soon). There are others too. Tiger makes an excellent hard leather tip as well as Talisman. We are also working on a possible alternative.

I believe this is good for the game. I don't really care about jumps being easy or restricting a players ability and all that stuff, I just believe that we should protect the equipment that we play on. It is typically in bad enough shape as it it!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
RBC said:
Now, what is phenolic. The definition is "a thermosetting resin".
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As a nitpick, phenolic is a thermoset. But all thermosets are not phenolics. (A square is a rectangle, but all rectangles aren't squares.)

G10, G7, G11 are glass-filled epoxy resins, not phenolic. So, are they banning G10 because they think it's a phenolic (which it isn't) or because it is made from a thermosetting resin and the thermosetting process (which it is)? Silicone rubber is also a thermoset. The difference in material is night and day. So, they better have some kind of parameter clarification.

I think they better get their definitions and intentions squared away or else they're creating loopholes. If I miscue and my ferrule hits the cueball, am I banned since most ferrules are thermosets? On the break, the cueball gets slammed into another phenolic ball of equal hardness (think: diamond cuts diamond). Surely that causes a million times more damage than jump tips. But, apparently, breaking will be banned, too. But, that's their call.


Fred
 
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I think the BCA can afford to replace a few cue ball with all the GREEN they are raking in. JMHO. Also think this rule may drive player to play else where. Again JMHO.
 
Let's break it down.

Phen: Pretty sure it has something to do with that diet drug everybody was suing for. Phen Phen? So, it has something to do with losing weight.

O: Well, we all know what the big "O" stands for.

Lic: If you have to ask, you don't deserve her.

So....I'm gonna go with a dieting man, while performing cunnilingus, and trying to get rich from the dieting. Phen-O-Lic. Final answer.
 
Cornerman said:
As a nitpick, phenolic is a thermoset. But all thermosets are not phenolics. (A square is a rectangle, but all rectangles aren't squares.)

G10, G7, G11 are glass-filled epoxy resins, not phenolic. So, are they banning G10 because they think it's a phenolic (which it isn't) or because it is made from a thermosetting resin and the thermosetting process (which it is)? Silicone rubber is also a thermoset. The difference in material is night and day. So, they better have some kind of parameter clarification.

I think they better get their definitions and intentions squared away or else they're creating loopholes. If I miscue and my ferrule hits the cueball, am I banned since most ferrules are thermosets? On the break, the cueball gets slammed into another phenolic ball of equal hardness (think: diamond cuts diamond). Surely that causes a million times more damage than jump tips. But, apparently, breaking will be banned, too. But, that's their call.


Fred
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I've used phenolic jump tips on my cue ball at home and can't find a single mark, yet I go to casual pool rooms where it's unlikely the players even know what a phenolic tip is and find most of the cue balls that have numerous dings.

How about a rule that says cue balls should be replaced once in a while?

Chris
 
Instead of banninig phenolic, BCAPL should ban anything hard enough to do the damage a phenolic tip can do to the cue ball.
 
If they did that, they'd ban all the other balls but the cue ball.
:p

Fred, you're just too damn smart!
:D
 
TATE said:
How about a rule that says cue balls should be replaced once in a while?

Chris
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I think the BCA can afford to replace a few cue ball with all the GREEN they are raking in. JMHO. Also think this rule may drive player to play else where. Again JMHO.:wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:
 
Well, Fred is absolutely right! As usual I might add!

While all phenolics are thermosetting resins, not all thermosetting resins are phenolics. I stand corrected.

However, the BCA does apparently seem to be including all of these into one category. Maybe Bill Stock could come on and help us out a little. I am confident that the biggest culprit of damage is G-10. The harder epoxy resin along with the fiberglass will not only cause impact damage but abrasions as well.


Thanks Fred! I should have called you first!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
RBC said:
Well, Fred is absolutely right! As usual I might add!

While all phenolics are thermosetting resins, not all thermosetting resins are phenolics. I stand corrected.

However, the BCA does apparently seem to be including all of these into one category. Maybe Bill Stock could come on and help us out a little. I am confident that the biggest culprit of damage is G-10. The harder epoxy resin along with the fiberglass will not only cause impact damage but abrasions as well.


Thanks Fred! I should have called you first!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
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Some materials mechanical engineer should do some kind of study on this. I don't know if that's Dr. Dave or someone of his level of technical background.

I agree that the fiberglass in a high compression material could damage by abrasion. But... and here's the big bugaboo... chalk is made of silica, not calcium carbonate. In other words, chalk is crushed sandpaper. It's meant to be abrasive. That's sort of the definition of friction (in a microscopic world). I'm not sure there's much difference between using a hard tip and billiard chalk on every shot vs. a g10 tip with chalk once in a while on jump shots.

Fred
 
Keep in mind that we went from Ivory -> Clay -> Phenolic Resin cueballs within the past century due to the evolution of pocket billiards. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the introduction of a new stronger material for pocket balls and cueballs.

I personally have only broke with a phenolic tipped break cue once. I honestly think I get less cueball control, so I'm sticking with my triangle tips.
 
RBC said:
Well, Fred is absolutely right! As usual I might add!

While all phenolics are thermosetting resins, not all thermosetting resins are phenolics. I stand corrected.

However, the BCA does apparently seem to be including all of these into one category. Maybe Bill Stock could come on and help us out a little. I am confident that the biggest culprit of damage is G-10. The harder epoxy resin along with the fiberglass will not only cause impact damage but abrasions as well.


Thanks Fred! I should have called you first!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

I think you are right regarding the G-10. The BCA may have approached this completely wrong. The hardness of the tip may be inconsequential. It is the design of the tip that causes the damage as you site regarding the G-10. You have hard resin soaked fibers running through out the tip and at the surface. It is the mechanics of the tip and not the hardness that causes the damage.

I am not sure how hard a cue tip is even capable of striking a cue ball with the human factor and such a short travel before it hits the cue ball. We may be surprised, it may not be nearly as hard as we think. Then take into account the cuestick itself will absorb some of the impact as it flexes and the cueball is not an immovable object. I think it is probably impossible for a human wielding a cue to actually hit a cue ball hard enough to damage it unless the tip has something about it like something sharp or abrasive that causes the damage such as the G-10 may. The BCA has probably gotten this all mixed up and may be maligning some good manufactures with what may be a blanket rule that has no basis what so ever.
 
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Phenolic tips is a way of making 9ball even more boring than it already is. As if breaking and running 8 or 9 balls isn't enough and only 6 or 7 would make the game better.
 
LAlouie said:
Phenolic tips is a way of making 9ball even more boring than it already is. As if breaking and running 8 or 9 balls isn't enough and only 6 or 7 would make the game better.
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Don't forget about the loud noise - the louder the break, the more exciting pool must be. Right?
 
Im sorry, but I still dont understand why it matters? We are talking about breaking on a bar box..... If you need the slight benefit that a phenolic tip adds to the speed of the cueball, work on your break stroke.
Chuck
 
Opinion

I have been using a phenolic tipped break cue for only a couple of years now, and here's what I observed. The nature of the tip demands that you perfect your break stroke to hit the balls right, so it can have good effects because of this. If you have a tip that grabs (leather tips), that very fact will forgive a bad break stroke. Think of the difference of comparing to that of having a soccer ball bullseye compared to a half dollar sized bullseye. The half dollar bullseye is the optimum break range on the head ball that is racked. If the tip helps perfect your break stroke to hit that half dollar, where a leather tip allows more variance because it grabs better, but the results are not as good.

Precision is a direct result of training. As an example, when you aim a combination shot, how big is the aiming target you use on the balls, is it quarter sized, nickel sized, dime sized? My aiming target for a combination
is about 1/2 sized of an 'o' on each object ball. I have shot combos much better since I narrowed my aiming target range to hit the object balls.
 
I agree that you have to hit a really good break shot with a phenolic tip, but for a really good break, you have to hit a good one with a leather tip too. You can squat the cueball with a phenolic tip just like you can with a leather tip and you can spread the balls with a leather tip just like you can with a phenolic. Either way is fine with me, just get the act together without any hidden agendas by the BCA, BCAPL, or anyone else in the foodchain, including retailers!
:p
 
I have an organic cue ball, everytime I jump with it, it bruises in the exact location I hit it. Takes about a week to heal. ;)
 
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