It was good of you to apologize Chris and i hope Mr. Justis does the same as this whole thing was out of line dragging someone through the mud over their opinion.Rep for you.TATE said:
Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed
- Thread starter Jack Justis
- Start date
John Barton
New member
runscott said:
The people doing my tooling are highly experienced toolers who have their own business selling high end leather goods on their own. They do my work as they can and I pay what they ask.
Perhaps you care to point out where the deficiencies lie in the cases on my website that make them so overpriced in your opinion. That's what this website is for. I welcome any and all criticism because that which is warranted will only serve to make me a better casemaker and that which is not can be easily debunked.
I know that some of you look for ANY reason to knock me. That's cool I put myself out there so I expect to be a target. Just be sure your aim is right before you fire.
I guarantee you that just about ANY measure of value you want to use that I can put up an example of a case with far less work that is priced much higher as well a cases priced the same with far less work in them. Don't even go there on the construction/protection issue because mine are the best in class period and we can stack it up high on the lot if anyone cares to bet.
Fatboy, you can high roll me me but I will bet my net worth that my cases beat Justis, Whitten, Murnak for protectiveness. Not to call you out specifically but you are the resident high roller among us
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John Barton said:
You can't spell it out because I don't have or never will have dealers. Some might think they are dealers but they pay the same price as everyone else.
OK, sound like some of you guys are upsetabout these "knockoff" cue cases and MAYBE rightfully so.
The reason I say maybe is b/c in the cue making world we have builders who make knockoffs of other makers cues. However these cue builders call them "TRIBUTE" cues. Can you really say there is any difference between the tribute cues and tribute cases?
The reason I say maybe is b/c in the cue making world we have builders who make knockoffs of other makers cues. However these cue builders call them "TRIBUTE" cues. Can you really say there is any difference between the tribute cues and tribute cases?
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Not when they are made in China and the case maker is actually alive.Dawgie said:
Why would he need a tribute?
John Barton
New member
cueaddicts said:Jack, if it's any solace.......guess that solves it. Your cases are FAR SUPERIOR to those Instroke's after all. It took those Chinese crafts-men and -women (and -children) a LOT longer to be able to knock them off.
Sean (always after the silver lining in a commode full of crap)
Not even close. Jack copied Jay Flowers build and I took Jay's and Jacks builds and improved on them significantly.
Flowers style cases - which is what Justis cases are, have been available as copies for at least six years that I know of - put out by companies that couldn't figure out how to make Instrokes.
I have a John Barton case on order. I have nothing but good things to say about John. He has been up front with me and he does what he says. It sound to me this whole thing has been blown way out of control. Jack I understand you being upset but I seen a knockoff of your cases at least 5 years ago. It is not going to stop. If anything you have a good product that everybody knows so it is going to be copied. As long as you have a backlog of orders I would not worry about it. I do think flaming John like this without talking with him first is just as bad as your cases being copied by others. If anything this is worse than knockoff cases.
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I have to say that the cases i saw on your page were absolutely stunning,very nice work.I also saw that you list Mr. Justis as the first guy to go to if they are looking for something different,that is very respectful and shows your character.I am not in the market for either of your cases even though im going to be picking up a new case soon,i just dont have that kinda cash to lay out,so i guess i will have to go with something cheap and imported.John Barton said:The people doing my tooling are highly experienced toolers who have their own business selling high end leather goods on their own. They do my work as they can and I pay what they ask.
Perhaps you care to point out where the deficiencies lie in the cases on my website that make them so overpriced in your opinion. That's what this website is for. I welcome any and all criticism because that which is warranted will only serve to make me a better casemaker and that which is not can be easily debunked.
I know that some of you look for ANY reason to knock me. That's cool I put myself out there so I expect to be a target. Just be sure you're aim is right before you fire.
I guarantee you that just about ANY measure of value you want to use that I can put up an example of a case with far less work that is priced much higher as well a cases priced the same with far less work in them. Don't even go there on the construction/protection issue because mine are the best in class period and we can stack it up high on the lot if anyone cares to bet.
Fatboy, you can high roll me me but I will bet my net worth that my cases beat Justis, Whitten, Murnak for protectiveness. Not to call you out specifically but you are the resident high roller among us
Im hoping both of you can settle up because i think this is blown out of proportion and dont see John as doing anything wrong then giving an opinion,he isnt selling these knockoffs correct?,so therefore he is owed an apology.
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John Barton
New member
Jack Justis said:
Oh I can certainly spell it out. Fine, then let's put it this way - a customer of yours who displays your cases as being for sale on their website has had the cheap vinyl cases for sale for over two years at shows.
And that doesn't change the FACT that if you bothered to look around then you would have already seen those cases as well as these Bently cases.
The cases shown in THIS LINK
have been available for at least four years that I know of.
You act as if this is all new. You are the only one whose head is in the sand. I warned you years to ago to expect this.
Now I have seen far more and better copies of your cases. So you can expect them to be showing up soon and they WON'T be from me or Sterling. I am too busy building cases that are beyond your capabilities.
Cases that will get copied far more than the simple designs you build. I will lose more money to copies than you can make in a year. So don't even try to go toe to toe with me.
I Wonder If They Could Have Made A Cheaper Copy Of My 2nd Wife
While we're on the subject of China and knockoffs and counterfeit products, i went back and looked up a post that I made in the FS/WTB forum here at AZB about a month and a half ago.
It appears that not only is China putting out knockoffs of items, but they go so far as to use the REAL manufacturer's name and packaging as well.
I was looking for refills for the best razor that I have ever used (I've been using it all this year without changing blades) and ran across this:
Posted on 9/9/07 in the FS/WTB Section:
I just accidently ran across this on ebay, it's not pool related, but it's an example of just what might show up on ebay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-Chinese...tcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Read the comments section at the bottom....
Doug
* Link Fixed
.
While we're on the subject of China and knockoffs and counterfeit products, i went back and looked up a post that I made in the FS/WTB forum here at AZB about a month and a half ago.
It appears that not only is China putting out knockoffs of items, but they go so far as to use the REAL manufacturer's name and packaging as well.
I was looking for refills for the best razor that I have ever used (I've been using it all this year without changing blades) and ran across this:
Posted on 9/9/07 in the FS/WTB Section:
I just accidently ran across this on ebay, it's not pool related, but it's an example of just what might show up on ebay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-Chinese...tcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Read the comments section at the bottom....
Doug
* Link Fixed
.
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John Barton
New member
runscott said:Right, you sound very impartial. John Barton posted a bunch of tripe on the other forum about Chinese cues and also some jealousy-inpired b.s. trying to hype his own cases over Jack's. It became obvious even to him that no one agreed with him or even cared to listen to him, and so he came back here where he was more comfortable. Now Jack has an issue with him, and he's coming directly to his lair. What's the surprise?
Regarding free cases to forum users, there's yet another idea that John Barton took from Jack and brought to this forum (in both cases, they were raffles - not free giveaways)...or were you sleeping during that?
Don't you guys read your own forum posts before you jump into a fray
Tripe? Eye of the beholder I guess. Jack has no issue with me. He has an invented issue. I am more comfortable here because I don't belong to the clique that is there and I never have, nor do I belong to any group here. However as I told you and everyone else IF I see something that I disagree with and feel compelled to respond then I will.
I have no need to hype my cases over Jack's. I make better cases period and I always have. I have set more milestones in casemaking than Jack has and that record stands.
As for doing giveaways - you can't be serious? Really. You must be joking. Giveaways on forums are everywhere. Murnak did the same thing when he first came to AZB - if I took the idea from anyone then it was from him. But I have given away cues and other stuff well beyond the cases.
Man, sometimes you crack me up with the nonsense you come with. I thought we had agreed to let it go on the other forum. Well, whatever, nonsense is easy enough to debunk and it was getting boring around here talking about Shane Van Boeing all the time. Whatever weight SVB can give you on the table though I can spot you twice as much in the debate department.
John Barton
New member
If you knew what I know.
I guess it could read that way since I didn't reveal all that I know. What I meant is that there are several people that are copying Justis and Whitten cases and they are preparing to enter the US market heavily.
NOT ME. The last thing I want to do is copy those two. I like Whittens and I like Justis cases (most of them) but I truly truly feel that I build a better case and one that looks better. At least I like the looks of the cases I make more than I like theirs.
But there are knowledgeable and capable people who OWN many Justis and Whitten cases as well as MANY MANY MANY high end cues who are copying Justis and Whitten and doing a pretty good job of it.
As well Instroke is making Justis knockoffs. I know of two more sources that are doing bad copies.
So all I meant is that these people are poised to begin bringing these cases to market in the USA. I call it an assault.
The LAST THING I would do is copy those two but IF I did I would proudly announce it on this board along with my reasons and what I did to improve on their builds.
Now listen up - this is important - I am currently revamping a famous design and improving it significantly. Those cases will be revealed when they are done. And they will be a perfect example of what happens when I do decide to build on an existing design.
Smorgass Bored said:
I guess it could read that way since I didn't reveal all that I know. What I meant is that there are several people that are copying Justis and Whitten cases and they are preparing to enter the US market heavily.
NOT ME. The last thing I want to do is copy those two. I like Whittens and I like Justis cases (most of them) but I truly truly feel that I build a better case and one that looks better. At least I like the looks of the cases I make more than I like theirs.
But there are knowledgeable and capable people who OWN many Justis and Whitten cases as well as MANY MANY MANY high end cues who are copying Justis and Whitten and doing a pretty good job of it.
As well Instroke is making Justis knockoffs. I know of two more sources that are doing bad copies.
So all I meant is that these people are poised to begin bringing these cases to market in the USA. I call it an assault.
The LAST THING I would do is copy those two but IF I did I would proudly announce it on this board along with my reasons and what I did to improve on their builds.
Now listen up - this is important - I am currently revamping a famous design and improving it significantly. Those cases will be revealed when they are done. And they will be a perfect example of what happens when I do decide to build on an existing design.
John Barton
New member
mosconiac said:
I doubt that Jack will lose a nickle over this. If anything having a REAL Justis will become even more desirable IF a flood of Justis-like cases should hit the market.
But I don't see how a large company handle the loss of revenue more than JJ. If Jack were to lose 100% of his revenue then only one man would be affected. If a large company loses 10% of it's revenue then thousands of people are affected. Who knows how many more people I could have employed if I didn't lose revenue due to the copies and if didn't have to spend profit on fighting them?
What is despicable is the cowardly way Jack has gone about this. I don't consider the way he has done this to be upstanding at all. At the very least he could have given me the courtesy of an email. That is how upstanding people handle something like this. They don't create negative drama with false accusations.
Jack, you owe me an apology and you know it. Even an apology won't really cover it but you owe me one anyway. This is far far worse than anything I have ever said to you. The more I think about the madder I get.
Smorgass Bored said:
Doug,
This is perfectly legal under chinese law the last I knew. If you contract with a chinese company to make a product or even part of that product when the contract ends the chinese subcontractor is not only entitled to continue making the product, or start making the complete product, they can market it using your name. Why anyone would get tangled in these messes is beyong me. Well maybe not. $$$$$$$$
Hu
I agree that your owed an apology,this whole situation was blown out of proportion.John Barton said:
John Barton
New member
ShootingArts said:
As far as I know this is not the case. The manufacturer may not appropriate a client's established brand for sale in the Chinese market. They are certainly not allowed to export those items. These things can however be made part of the contract. A contract term can be that the IP belongs to the contractor forever. If this is agreed to then the manufacturer is forbidden to make the product.
It is becoming common practice however for Chinese companies to register trademarks in China for the sole purpose of being able to deny all other companies the right to produce items with that trademark. This then 'somehow' morphs into producing goods using that trademark for the Chinese market.
You are right - $$$$ is where it's at. It goes beyond just the low cost of goods but the speed of development and design are also sometimes much faster here. - sometimes -
You know what is truly funny - despite all the copying and proliferation of copied goods - in the Chinese market there are plenty of outlets for the real thing. Luxury brands are all around here and selling for as much or more than in the West. if anything the Chinese are MORE brand conscious than westerners because of the total availability of knockoffs.
I think that it drives people to desire the real thing and as soon as they can afford it they buy the real thing. And every day more and more people in China can afford the originals. So ironically, China may end up being the world's largest consumer of both knockoffs and original products.
John Barton said:
yea a lot of ppl seem to be under the impression that ppl in china are poor. it's true that chinese farmers are poor but those that live in the cities are generally wealthy. if u go to hong kong u will see tons of rich dudes from mainland china who come down to buy name brand items. i've seen ppl buy a whole shelf of name brand bags etc. without even thinking about it. there are many knockoffs in china but a lot of ppl there spend money on the real thing. it's just something that most ppl dont realize.
Apology??
How in the world do you think John Barton is owed an apology? Mr Justis posted an exact quote where JB said plain and clearly that his company was going to import and sell knock off Justis cases, what does JB do? Oh that was out of context blah blah, the point is JB said: "Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.
John"
Now JB claims never to have gone thru with it, what does that make him? A LIAR plain and simple. Then he goes on to knock Mr Justis' product and character and then expect an apology?? No way.
JB, you may think that your cases are better or look better than a Justis case (and that's your opinion and you're entitled to it) but I will tell you this; in the CLASS department Jack Justis can give you the 5 out ALL DAY.
Fast Lenny said:I agree that your owed an apology,this whole situation was blown out of proportion.
How in the world do you think John Barton is owed an apology? Mr Justis posted an exact quote where JB said plain and clearly that his company was going to import and sell knock off Justis cases, what does JB do? Oh that was out of context blah blah, the point is JB said: "Sure. You will be able to buy them from Sterling Gaming in about two months. I have decided to start importing them. Call 877-283-7444 to set up an account and we will call you as soon as they show up.
John"
Now JB claims never to have gone thru with it, what does that make him? A LIAR plain and simple. Then he goes on to knock Mr Justis' product and character and then expect an apology?? No way.
JB, you may think that your cases are better or look better than a Justis case (and that's your opinion and you're entitled to it) but I will tell you this; in the CLASS department Jack Justis can give you the 5 out ALL DAY.
John Barton said:
I'm sure you would - your ego has never been in sync with your sense. If you are going to 'win' a debate, you might want to try reading the posts before you begin your blather. In this case you would have found that I was responding to Smorgasbord's comments about case giveaways.
You want to know why I tried to get you to shut up on the other forum? Because you bore the living shit out of me. I don't know any other way to put it.
"Class" by dragging a guys name through the mud for what?He didnt steal anything and never sold a damn thing so give him a break,he said he only did that after an argument and people being jerks.Jack should have PMd John and if you decide to attack someone who has you as a link on his site then you need to have something to back it up instead of accusations.magnetardo said:
There are people on here who sell knockoffs and we arent attacking them, people jump on the bandwagon so easily here.