Justis Case Knockoff Design Thief Exposed

[JimS]

Yep. Doug, I think you got the facts right and all in all it's a bunch of Jerry Springerish crap. Not worthy of any more time or effort than are afternoon soap operas and The View.

As usual, people have read SOME of the thread, some people have read ALL of the thread, some people have read all THREE of Jacks threads here and some haven't read anything but the last couple of posts.

Some have read what they WANTED the thread to read and mean and some read it, but didn't comprehend what they'd read. Some have a horse in the race and only see THEIR horse's side of the issue.

There have been heated discussions/wars about Instroke-Justis-Whitten cases online for YEARS. This particular dead horse was grazing at Inside Pool in a heated discussion about cases. Five or six months ago, John Barton told someone in a PM (PRIVATE Message) that they may soon buy a lookalike case at Sterling Gaming. He was mad and said it in anger and John isn't producing, importing or selling Justis knock offs.

Jack received a copy of this old long dead horse PM and decided that AZB (not Inside Pool, where it started) was the best place to start three threads on the subject. Jack should have just phoned or e-mailed John and asked him about it (after all these years of discussions about their respective cases).... imo

It appears that there ARE knockoff Justis cases. There HAS BEEN for a number of years. According to John, there are about to be MORE knockoffs of Justis and Whitten cases available in the very near future. John Barton has NOTHING to do with these cases and feels that he is owed an apology. Many here agree with John, while Jack's loyalists only believe in Jack and have their ears & eyes covered while chanting "la,la,la,la,la,la,la" .....

Doug
( at least, that's the way that I READ IT )

 

[hoosier_cues]

In my humble opinion the fact something gets copied somewhat is good. ALL products go through evolution. Somebody sees a products and says I can make it better. Somebody had an idea for a leather fancy case long ago. Since then everybody has improved on that first design. Now in some cases there are direct knockoffs with no improvements for quick finacial gain. This has always happened. It will not stop. Take what JB is doing with some of his cases.... He has improved on the earlier design. Is it a copy then?

 

[John Barton]

Does this sound like "thinking" of selling knockoffs? "I have decided to start importing them." To me, the thinking process was already done and his decision was made, now if he actually DID import them we may never know.

You do know because I tell you that it is so. If these cases were imported by us then why aren't they for sale on our websites, in our catalogs, why isn't there ONE SINGLE dealers here who can confirm purchasing these cases from us?

The comment was made in anger and nothing came of it. Period. And you can bet your house that IF I had imported them then I would be on here touting them as better than sliced bread. There would not have been any sneaking around selling them under the table hush hush, don't tell Jack.

You seem to think you know me - have I EVER been quiet about anything?

Why on Earth would I risk my reputation by selling Justis copies under the table? That makes a lot of sense. IF I brought these in then I would be telling anyone who would listen that these are way better than Justis. Why? Well because if I did them then they would be.

 

[magnetardo]

LOL - IF said "scumbag" actually was selling the knockoffs then you might have a point. But if said scumbag merely said he was going to and didn't then there is NO ISSUE.

But I like this message enough to repeat it.

" I'll bet if you spent the last 20 or so years handcrafting a product and then have some scumbag start selling blatant copies of your product I'm pretty sure you would take offense to it." You said.

Kinda like when Jay Flowers invested all that time and effort into making his style of cases and along comes a customer with a patience problem who decides to create a competing company instead of waiting????

And since I keep referring to this "blatant ripoff" I guess I should quote the source,

From the Ask The Casemaker Thread at the Inside Pool Magazine's Jimbo Section HERE Jack says "Around 1990 I made my first cues and was looking for a case to carry them. I saw a Flowers and liked the quality and looks. When I tried to order one from Jay, he told me it would be 8 weeks. After reading Al Stolhman's book on CaseMaking, I decided I would build one and only one myself. In about a week, I had the case almost completed and was really happy with the way it looked. One of my friends came over one night, saw the case and the rest is history....started on the second one and the damn thing just snowballed from there. Believe it or not, it was actually 5 years before I had a case with my name on it. If Jay had said, sure I will ship you one tomorrow, I doubt very seriously I would have ever given a second though to making my own case. Funny how things happen some time. I was with Chris-Craft Corp, the boat builders, for 17 years, after that I started making custom fishing rods, dabbled in photography to take pics of the rods, started doing a little cue repair, eventually made a few cues which led into the case fiasco. Now you know everything! It's been exciting but I plan on winding down in a few and maybe go back into building high end rods."

And also says in the same thread here, "Jay Florwers certainly had a great influence on many of todays casemakers, including me. I had been looking a many different designs and without question Jay's case was of the highest quality and a design that I liked best. I changed the pockets, lid, straps, and the tooling but he did not like it one bit and then quit making cases altogether. I tried to convince Jay that there was enough room for both of us, even thou the styles were similar. Even thou he gave up making cases, we did become rather good friends and talked regularly. I made a case for Jay and he wrote me a letter stating it was nicer than anything he had made. That made me feel real good and out friendship was drawn even closer til his demise."

And so if Jack is allowed to use Jay Flower's style then anyone is certainly entitled to use Jack's. I don't have ANYTHING against the way Jack got into cases. His impetus was impatience and mine was the fact that the Flowers I had didn't provide the security I wanted. But let's not BS ourselves and pretend that what we do is hard, rocket science, or even exclusive. It's not.

Getting copied sucks. It sucked for Jay Flowers, it probably sucked when George copied Fellini and sucked when Porper took Bob Meucci's design for the foam core style case. I sure hated it when my cases were copied. But it's part of the cycle and anything that is popular will get copied in some form.

For Jack to finger me though when I have NOT copied him is pretty low though. Jack Justis is sullying my name by calling me a thief when it is not true and is the farthest thing from the truth. I would never steal his designs - I would make them better.

I would expect an "artist" to be able to tell the difference in copying someone's work and being influenced by someone's work. To me a Justis case doesn't look anything like a Flowers case.

You should really end statements like this "I would make them better" with "in my opinion" because that's all it is, an opinion.

Now you still never answered my simple question, did you PM someone and tell them you'd be selling Justis copies? It's all about intentions sir, you stated you were going to import/sell them, now we don't know if you did or not. And if you didn't, we don't know the reason you didn't maybe it wasn't profitable maybe your Chinese assembly line had a sudden sense of integrity. Who knows, but your PM made it perfectly clear that you intended to import and sell Justis copies.

 

[Fast Lenny]

The comment was made in anger and nothing came of it. Period. And you can bet your house that IF I had imported them then I would be on here touting them as better than sliced bread. There would not have been any sneaking around selling them under the table hush hush, don't tell Jack.

Yeah he did answer your question.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Step Right Up, Magne retardo.... And Beat The Dead Horse To DEATH

.....if you didn't we don't know the reason you didn't maybe it wasn't profitable maybe you Chinese assembly line had a sudden sense of integrity.

It's amazing to me, that you were able to write this with your fingers in your ears while singing, la..la..la...la..la...la, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, la...la...la.

Doug
( some people will just never 'get it'... IMO )

 

[magnetardo]

It's amazing to me, that you were able to write this with your fingers in your ears while singing, la..la..la...la..la...la, I CAN'T HEAR YOU, la...la...la.

Doug
( some people will just never 'get it'... IMO )

"Step Right Up, Magne retardo" So I guess this wasn't a total jagoff maneuver, huh??

 

[John Barton]

I would expect an "artist" to be able to tell the difference in copying someone's work and being influenced by someone's work. To me a Justis case doesn't look anything like a Flowers case.

You should really end statements like this "I would make them better" with "in my opinion" because that's all it is, an opinion.

Now you still never answered my simple question, did you PM someone and tell them you'd be selling Justis copies? It's all about intentions sir, you stated you were going to import/sell them, now we don't know if you did or not and if you didn't we don't know the reason you didn't maybe it wasn't profitable maybe you Chinese assembly line had a sudden sense of integrity. Who knows, but your PM made it perfectly clear that you intended to import and sell Justis copies.

No, when there is quantifiable difference in performance then one thing is better than another. If I take your $10,000 cue and put it in my case and turn it upside down and it does not fall out and get harmed and then take your cue and put it in Jack's case and your cue falls to the floor and breaks then which case is better?

If I said looks better then you have a point. Looks however are subjective. Performance is objective.

And your comments as to why I did or did not do something is speculative.

The FACT is however that I DID NOT do that which Jack has accused me of. I admitted in my first reply that I wrote the PM and also explained the reason I wrote it. Did you miss that part? You can speculate on my motives one way or the other all day. The ONLY motivation that I would have to copy Jack's work is crap like this thread just to PROVE I can do it better, in my opinion of course.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the cases are already on the market through other sources. I didn't create them. I don't know why you insist on skipping information.

I totally agree about the difference between inspired by and copied. So to me a vinyl case that is embroidered and not tooled is inspired by the Justis style. And probably the court would see it the same way. But I don't care , the point is that Jay Flowers obviously felt that the Justis design was too close to the style he was making so there you have a negative impact attributed to Jack's impatience.

And this thread is one more example of such.

 

[hoosier_cues]

"Step Right Up, Magne retardo" So I guess this wasn't a total jagoff maneuver, huh??

It might have been. It was funny either way though.

 

[Fast Lenny]

It might have been. It was funny either way though.

It was,freaking comedians!

 

[The Beginner]

I have no need to hype my cases over Jack's. I make better cases period and I always have. I have set more milestones in casemaking than Jack has and that record stands.

I don't think you make better cases than Mr Justis..IMHO Mr Justis makes an excellent cases that's why most famous, hall of famer pro players have Mr justis cases such us Reyes, busta, buddy hall, deuel....and more...and of course ME (((but im not famous nor a hall famer just a fan of Mr. Justis cases))) ...so i think if you want to make a better cases do it with your own design and your own originality...I think you owe Mr Justis and apology .

 

[Fast Lenny]

I don't think you make better cases than Mr Justis..IMHO Mr Justis makes an excellent cases that's why most famous, hall of famer pro players have Mr justis cases such us Reyes, busta, buddy hall, deuel....and more...and of course ME (((but im not famous nor a hall famer just a fan of Mr. Justis cases))) ...so i think if you want to make a better cases do it with your own design and your own originality...I think you owe Mr Justis and apology .

If you took the time to read the thread,then you would see that Justis improved upon Flowers cases and so did Barton,i wouldnt call it theft just evolution of equipment.
They both make excellent cases and your opinion on who makes a nicer looking case is just that an opinion,as for better protection i will take Johns case anyday.

 

[John Barton]

I don't think you make better cases than Mr Justis..IMHO Mr Justis makes an excellent cases that's why most famous, hall of famer pro players have Mr justis cases such us Reyes, busta, buddy hall, deuel....and more...and of course ME (((but im not famous nor a hall famer just a fan of Mr. Justis cases))) ...so i think if you want to make a better cases do it with your own design and your own originality...I think you owe Mr Justis and apology .

Ok, Jack I apologize. More famous Hall of Famers have your cases because they sought them out and BOUGHT them.

They did buy them right?

Jack does make nice cases - great cases - some of them are really pretty.

I have never said anything different. Only mine are better - in my opinion of course. What opinion should I hold as a casemaker?

Should I believe that mine are inferior? If so they why don't I make mine better? Well I did make them better in my opinion with very specific construction techniques.

Are mine prettier? Some are. Some aren't. Are they better, yes they are. Although I have to say that Jack has also come a long way from his early cases as have all of us and his cases are top notch in fit and finish.

I used to say that if I didn't make cases that I would own a Justis as my first choice. That was true until last night. Now I would use rubber bands before I use a Justis.

Let me tell you and everyone else something - despite all the arguing about which case is "better" I have consistently recommended Justis - it's all in the archives on here, on RSB and whatever other boards the topic has come up on. I might be abrasive but I am consistent throughout the years.

If you want a good case then Jack can build you one. That doesn't change despite how I feel about him.

 

[The Beginner]

If you took the time to read the thread,then you would see that Justis improved upon Flowers cases and so did Barton,i wouldnt call it theft just evolution of equipment.
They both make excellent cases and your opinion on who makes a nicer looking case is just that an opinion,as for better protection i will take Johns case anyday.

I don't think its an opinion i think its a fact!

 

[olauzon]

I don't think its an opinion i think its a fact!

... <sigh> ...

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I Ain't Mad Atchya.... magnetardo

"Step Right Up, Magne retardo" So I guess this wasn't a total jagoff maneuver, huh??

Apparently, you've decided to draw a line in the sand and make this issue your Waterloo........... good luck wit dat.

Doug

*waterloo: : a decisive or final defeat or setback

 

[magnetardo]

It might have been. It was funny either way though.

Yeah, I probably would have laughed if I was still in grade school. Thankfully my parents raised me to have more respect than that.
Making fun of handicapped people or insinuating someone is handicapped (whether physically or mentally) is childish and uncalled for. And for you Doug, if you don't like what I post, DON'T READ IT!

 

[NYC cue dude]

Boohooo,in the world there are more problems that are serious compared to someone making knockoffs of cue cases and cues,to be honest i dont care if anyone makes knockoffs.People will buy what they want to buy, something low quality and cheap or something high quality and expensive, its your choice.

You, my friend, are a piece of garbadge. Of course you dont care. If someone was knocking off something (or someone) your involved with, i bet you you'd care. Its always the ones who say blah blah they dont care, who cry like *****es the loudest when it happens to them.

a pox on you.

rg

 

[NYC cue dude]

Ok so you think Mr Justis jumped the gun, I'll give you that much. But, do you think it warrants comments such as this:


"First of all Jack, IF I wanted to copy you then I wouldn't do it with that crappy design. I would make a case that you couldn't even begin to dream of doing. Well in fact I am doing a case like that and when you see it you will wish that you could do it. But you don't have the skill nor the team to do it. So stick to your basic designs."


Now again all Jack did was post John Barton's words, do you think a guy like Jack deserves this kind of shot? You should go back and look over the years how Jack & JB act in public forums, JJ has never been anything but a well respected member of this forum and for some reason JB always seems to mix it up with somebody. Try looking up some of JB's rants on RSB if you want some laughs!

Ill agree, I think John barton is a really low class wanna be know it all. There is no one in the world of pool that i despise more than he, and i only wish him continued failure in his personal and business life. If and when the opportunity arises that i can personally be a part of destroying him financially, Ill be first in lin and "all in".

i would urge all az'ers to individually, not as one "unit", to inundate sterling gaming with emails, and confront them with this exact question of wheher or not they are in fact importing these cases. They should also be aware of how one of thier employees has represented sterling intentions to import these cases, to the general public.

It is precisely jb's hypocrisy and complete lack of class which has earned him the distinction of being the first to be on my ignore list.

rg

 

[hejests]

So basically a ton of ppl are freaking out on John over copycat Justis cases that he has no involvement with? All this based on irrefutable "evidence", a PM from months ago (that was pasted here with no context or timestamps).

John wrote that he made that pm because he was annoyed, but lets play devils advocate and assume that John really meant what he wrote, and that he actually planned on importing the copies. I'm no rocket scientist but it seems pretty clear to me that if the cases were already on the market and being imported when John wrote that pm, then it's obvious that he's not the person who had been importing them (Otherwise he would have made a sale in that pm, not deferred a sale). If anything the PM establishes that John wasn't the person who was importing the copies. The timeline doesn't fit.

I think this whole thread is rediculous. Trying to tarnish a person's reputation based on "evidence" that's flimsier than any madonna outfit. That's what's really shameful.