Justis Case Knockoff
- Thread starter Jack Justis
- Start date
I'm waiting for the day Chinese knockoffs get knocked-off.
Made in Bangladesh by even cheaper slave laborers and greedier merchants.
Then again how can one out-China China really?
Made in Bangladesh by even cheaper slave laborers and greedier merchants.
Then again how can one out-China China really?
lenoxmjs said:
They (overseas) have been knocking off Antiques and Collectibles for a VERY long time and dealers representing 'reproduction' items as authentic has run rampant thoughout shops worldwide, far longer than their assault on pool products.... I dealt with it for 12 years
Doug
( the only way to fight it is through education of the consumers )
Maybe OT but the pool goodies business is really sad.
Years ago I went to the BCA. This one cue case dealer were making deals selling their cases to dealers.
After the show, he was selling cases at the back of his truck to consumers at discount rates.
Years ago I went to the BCA. This one cue case dealer were making deals selling their cases to dealers.
After the show, he was selling cases at the back of his truck to consumers at discount rates.
John Barton said:
I can't wait till they have them in Wal-Mart
Jack, you just don't get it man. You need to make more for less. I want to buy one of your cases in Wal-Mart, but you just can't handle the volume and poor quality that my wallet demands to get Wal-mart to contract with you. If you would just quit poking around and hire a bunch of illegals to schlep them things together, my dream could be realized.
Truthfully, I never bought an Instroke or any of their copies because I had a couple customers bring in real Instrokes that were falling apart in the tops or handles. Not sure if that was before or after Mr Barton had a hand in them. Now after reading Mr. Barton's comments, I promise to never buy another billiards product made in China or Taiwan. I just today bought a like new Murnak case. My cheap import cases are going to be destroyed in front of people at the local pool room next week with a little commentary. Hope I don't go to jail. I am a little crazy like that. I could sell them or give them away, but that would be propogating the disease.
God Bless America.
Jack, you just don't get it man. You need to make more for less. I want to buy one of your cases in Wal-Mart, but you just can't handle the volume and poor quality that my wallet demands to get Wal-mart to contract with you. If you would just quit poking around and hire a bunch of illegals to schlep them things together, my dream could be realized.
Truthfully, I never bought an Instroke or any of their copies because I had a couple customers bring in real Instrokes that were falling apart in the tops or handles. Not sure if that was before or after Mr Barton had a hand in them. Now after reading Mr. Barton's comments, I promise to never buy another billiards product made in China or Taiwan. I just today bought a like new Murnak case. My cheap import cases are going to be destroyed in front of people at the local pool room next week with a little commentary. Hope I don't go to jail. I am a little crazy like that. I could sell them or give them away, but that would be propogating the disease.
God Bless America.
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John Barton
New member
Jack Justis said:
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John Barton
New member
JoeyInCali said:
That was probably me. In those years I came here and loaded up a truck with cases and made deals with whoever I could to promote them. It was win win all the way around and worked as intended to get the cases out there.
I made all sorts of deals, sold cases at discounts to players and bigger discounts to dealers, traded cases for cues, art, other products, whatever it took to get them on the market.
I have fond memories of those times and I still run into people who bought cases from me off the truck and we laugh about those times.
I have zero regrets about that way to build the market. There was no other practical way for me to do it when I was based in Germany and had no office or warehouse in the USA.
That was a crapload of work too. Once time in Burnsville MN the truck broke down and we had to unload it next to a swamp in a cloud of mosquitoes. I finally borrowed a car and got a couple cans of OFF and basically drenched myself in it. Man we put a lot of miles in during those years.......
You are right though, the billiards business can be tough.
At risk of being flamed to death...
I agree that it is a shame Jack is being ripped off, but is the upset only because he is a well-known craftsman in the pool industry. What about all the poor smucks that used to make "things" in American factories? Why, when ever I mention them, doesn't everybody just say "It's a global economy, deal with it". At least John B. is consistent in that regard. As much as I like Jack, I find myself much more upset over the everyday "smucks" who are out on the street because of Chinese manafacturing. Jack will make a living regardless, he is well respected and probably has more work than he can do anyway. Some of those guys who are out on the street at 45/50 years old may never be able to find another steady job in their lives.
Steve. <== Beating a dead horse.
I agree that it is a shame Jack is being ripped off, but is the upset only because he is a well-known craftsman in the pool industry. What about all the poor smucks that used to make "things" in American factories? Why, when ever I mention them, doesn't everybody just say "It's a global economy, deal with it". At least John B. is consistent in that regard. As much as I like Jack, I find myself much more upset over the everyday "smucks" who are out on the street because of Chinese manafacturing. Jack will make a living regardless, he is well respected and probably has more work than he can do anyway. Some of those guys who are out on the street at 45/50 years old may never be able to find another steady job in their lives.
Steve. <== Beating a dead horse.
John Barton
New member
TATE said:
I never said I was involved with making Justis copies. When Jack brought the topic up there was no need for me to disclaim involvement because I am not involved.
Only Jack has made a false accusation based on an out of context private message.
So of course I am forced to defend myself there and NOW disclaim involvement.
I wasn't taking heat for copying Jack's stuff until Jack FALSELY accused me of doing so.
I was taking heat for my opinion which I have earned the right to. The past decade while I was losing money to copies of Instroke cases I NEVER copied Jack's cases to make a quick buck. Believe me it would have been EASY to do so.
My partners wanted us to do it and we almost came to blows a few times because they accused me of putting sentiment before the business. I had dealers that asked me to do it and I politely refused. I had retail customers that asked me to make a "Justis" but with an Instroke interior. Those requests were of course also refused.
Chris, my record stands on it's own. Anyone with half a brain can look at how a Justis is built and see that it is not hard to do - especially for someone like me with far more resources than Jack has. Jack knows this and if he looks into his heart then he KNOWS full well why I never copied him.
The sad fact is that Jack is pissed off right now and is grasping for someone to blame. And he erroneously went off half cocked based on that private message. At least that is my take on it.
Barton signed cases tooled by Who?
I am really curious if the tooler of the case you proudly signed was here in the U.S. or ???
http://www.jbcases.com/cases/spring.html
You proudly announce how you signed it, but it is heavily tooled by one of your artisans in the King style. So where does your signature fit in Sir? the predominance of work was done by someone else? Would you shed a little light on who that artisan is and where he is located so none of us come to the conclusion that your work is not being made by you here in the U.S.
$1250 for such deep relief work does seem a little cheap, but I don't know how much leather craftsmen make here in the U.S.
Thank you.
I am really curious if the tooler of the case you proudly signed was here in the U.S. or ???
http://www.jbcases.com/cases/spring.html
You proudly announce how you signed it, but it is heavily tooled by one of your artisans in the King style. So where does your signature fit in Sir? the predominance of work was done by someone else? Would you shed a little light on who that artisan is and where he is located so none of us come to the conclusion that your work is not being made by you here in the U.S.
$1250 for such deep relief work does seem a little cheap, but I don't know how much leather craftsmen make here in the U.S.
Thank you.
John Barton
New member
JoeyInCali said:
I heard the other day that a popular bar for Expats had replaced the Chinese brand of beer Tsing Tao (pronounced Sing Dow) with a counterfeit version that was .10cts a bottle cheaper to buy.
They lost almost all of their customers.
already happening
I have already seen it. It wasn't that long ago when stuff made in Japan was considered cheap. Now days something made in Japan is very desirable, especially electronic and optical equipment. Even the Fender guitars made in Japan are getting close to USA made prices. Lately things are being made in Bangladesh, Brazil, Taiwan, Korea, that are cheaper quality than China. I also know that several American corporations are setting up manufacturing plants in these countries to save a buck, which has made the problem worse. Some of this manufacturing is actually illegal, but the only group enforcing it is the military, for products installed in military facilities and equipment. The US military will never accept China as a supplier of anything
JoeyInCali said:
I have already seen it. It wasn't that long ago when stuff made in Japan was considered cheap. Now days something made in Japan is very desirable, especially electronic and optical equipment. Even the Fender guitars made in Japan are getting close to USA made prices. Lately things are being made in Bangladesh, Brazil, Taiwan, Korea, that are cheaper quality than China. I also know that several American corporations are setting up manufacturing plants in these countries to save a buck, which has made the problem worse. Some of this manufacturing is actually illegal, but the only group enforcing it is the military, for products installed in military facilities and equipment. The US military will never accept China as a supplier of anything
John Barton
New member
our_auctionguy said:
I signed it because it was created by me. I brought everything together to bring that case into existence. Do you think Tommy Hilfiger sews all the clothes that bear his name? Without me that case would not exist.
You are right in that the tooler did the tooling work. That was his part of the case. Other people including myself did other work on the case. I could have had everyone sign it but they didn't create it - I did. They built my creation according to my direction.
The examples are far too numerous to mention but a famous one is Stradivarius. It is well known that most of the violins that bear his name were built by apprentices and workers in his studio (factory). But without his direction those violins would not exist and no one would be able to enjoy a Strad.
I hope that you don't mind if I do not reveal who is doing my tooling work. This thread is a perfect example of the need to protect oneself. I have spent a lot of time and money training the toolers to do what I want them to do and I don't feel the need to jeopardize that investment by revealing my sources to my competition. I have been down that path too many times and learned the hard way.
I do mention quite clearly that my cases are made in China. Please read the site and you will see that is plainly stated. I have nothing to hide and have always been upfront about what I do, where I do it, and why I do it.
I get it. You are kind of like the Richard Helmstetter of the cue case world. That clears it up perfectly.
Posted In 2 of Jack's 3 Threads Of The Same Topic
While we're on the subject of China and knockoffs and counterfeit products, i went back and looked up a post that I made in the FS/WTB forum here at AZB about a month and a half ago.
It appears that not only is China putting out knockoffs of items, but they go so far as to use the REAL manufacturer's name and packaging as well.
I was looking for refills for the best razor that I have ever used (I've been using it all this year without changing blades) and ran across this:
Posted on 9/9/07 in the FS/WTB Section:
I just accidently ran across this on ebay, it's not pool related, but it's an example of just what might show up on ebay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-Chinese...tcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Read the comments section at the bottom....
Doug
*Link Fixed
While we're on the subject of China and knockoffs and counterfeit products, i went back and looked up a post that I made in the FS/WTB forum here at AZB about a month and a half ago.
It appears that not only is China putting out knockoffs of items, but they go so far as to use the REAL manufacturer's name and packaging as well.
I was looking for refills for the best razor that I have ever used (I've been using it all this year without changing blades) and ran across this:
Posted on 9/9/07 in the FS/WTB Section:
I just accidently ran across this on ebay, it's not pool related, but it's an example of just what might show up on ebay;
http://cgi.ebay.com/Perfect-Chinese...tcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Read the comments section at the bottom....
Doug
*Link Fixed
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John Barton
New member
our_auctionguy said:
God I hope so. He is worth like 60 million or so.
But your analogy (meant to be an insult I think) isn't quite correct. First I am a casemaker and can build a case from scratch all by myself. Secondly I design and develop the technical aspects of the cases we build. I actually do the work to refine the construction. I thought you would want to know that since it seems to be important to you.
The way a case LOOKS is completely secondary to how well it protects in my opinion. So I focus on that aspect and for the look of the case I choose whatever resources I have to bring out the look I want or what the customer wants. Thus I am not limited to only what I can personally do with my hands but only to what I can conceive in my mind.
Richard Helmstetter was a cuemaker himself. He created many brands and styles. Some of the cues that came from Helmstetter were outsourced to Mezz but they were all made to Helmstetter's designs and quality specifications.
Jack has also collaborated with others to achieve the decoration he wants. He has made cases where someone else has done the tooling and is rightfully proud of those pieces. He regularly puts laser engraved pieces on the cases and has the laser engraving done elsewhere. Should the technician who did the laser engraving be credited on Jack's cases? Or should the manufacturer of the laser machine be credited?
Now Jack does give credit to the tooler for the work. As did I when Chas Clements and I collaborated on several Instroke cases. The difference to those cases and what I am doing now is that I did not have to tell Chas anything. He is such a master of his craft that he was able to do fantastic masterpieces without any input from me. The cases you see listed on the website now are the result of a lot of discussion between the toolers and myself to bring my vision into reality.
Anyway, I have been up too long. I realize that you have probably made up your mind about me and that's cool. There are plenty of folks in the "don't like John Barton category" and I will not be winning them over anytime soon because I am not about to compromise my values to buy their favor. What I write isn't so much for you but for those who follow the discussion so that your comments are properly framed and your assertions properly answered.