dom_poppa
Banned
You make a great product and Barton's design and knowledge has helped you improved...I like the inspiration from him that caused you to put a padding on the bottom. Perhaps, some cushioning in the lining?
Justis Case...Pre-Barton or Post-Barton
- Thread starter dom_poppa
- Start date
You make a great product and Barton's design and knowledge has helped you improved...I like the inspiration from him that caused you to put a padding on the bottom. Perhaps, some cushioning in the lining?
How many casemakers do you see badmouthing the competition with all the crap John Barton has on his blog?
dom_poppa
Banned
I haven't read all his blogs but the ones I have read is him stating the protection his cases have versus others.
He seems like someone that values and enjoys cues, such as myself and many others.
Like Barton, I have had cues damaged and cases rattling, that causes for concern.
Before I knew who you were or Barton, the first criteria for choosing a case was me shaking the case, if it would rattle then I would not even consider it. I had a chance to buy a very nice It's George case and I knew the history of these cases, the first thing I did was shake it....it didn't feel right and I had to turn it down, even for a mere $100.
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Jack, you are absolutely right. There is a lot of emotional badmouthing about you on my blog. Not really any about anyone else. When I have time I will go back and edit out the emotional parts of the blog entries and leave the factual comparisons and factual statements about your product.
I hope you will agree that we should both be free to make factual statements about each other's products in the name of competition. As you well know I study every case I can in order to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. As a responsible businessman I do feel an obligation to make factual comparisons so that potential customers can make informed decisions. As Fast Eddie said to Vince, "about all that other stuff, I'm not to proud of that, it's even but it ain't settled. Let's clean it up."
Meanwhile you might not be aware of it but I have made a bet with the members of AZB not to bad mouth other case makers. A few moments ago I decided to give you a free entry into this contest as added incentive for me.
There are three spots left for anyone else who would like to see if they can win $1000 from me on a 10:1 bet.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3068915#post3068915
Here is something that ScottR said on another similar thread on another forum a while back,
"Functionality to me is that the butts fit in bumper down, the tubes/dividers/whatever are non-abrasive and protect all the way down, bottom of the case (inside) has some padding to not scratch/chip/etc. the bottom of my bumperless Hoppe cue, the case doesn't weigh 20 pounds, the straps/handles are in convenient locations, the latch is secure and not prone to pop open, the length will fit my 59" cues with joint protectors without putting undue pressure on the them. These are the specs that I need for a case to function for me and my cues.
You are right that many quality cases will fit the bill on my needs. That is why I originally said looks first. But, when pushed, I remembered that I have owned a couple of cases that didn't fit one or more of the specs above (usually too short or the butts go in upside down). So, I John Kerry-d and decided that functionality had to come first.
<<== feeling all defensive . . . . ."
https://www.insidepoolmag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2868&page=3
Here is a whole thread full of reasons why someone would want padding at the bottom of the case.
http://forums2.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=143102&page=4
Also sometimes bumpers get lost without the owners knowledge. I am sure a lot of folks are like me and have owned cues with the push on bumpers like Meucci uses that have disappeared. Would suck if that were a cue with an ivory buttcap and the owner unwittingly put it a case with no padding at the bottom and no padding on the side to slow the cue down.
I have also found that having a cushion at the bottom is better for the case as well. It absorbs the shock and puts less stress on the nails that hold the case together.
Also it allows people to put their cues in joint first if they wish to or joint down for the shaft as many people like to do it to keep chalk out of the cavities. I prefer to give them that choice.
Lastly it just feels better to have the cue go in with a gentle sound rather than a THUNK. That's just one of those comfort things that puts a person's mind at ease.
That's why I put padding in the bottom of the case. I think it's necessary and at the end of the day it costs me about 25cts per case to provide it so I don't see any downside for me or the consumer.
Also we use EVA foam that does not crumble. It will last longer than the rest of the case. Here is a wikipedia entry on the many uses of EVA foam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene-vinyl_acetate
However I fully agree with you that if the cues are put into the case with an intact rubber bumper and tip down then there is no real need for the padding at the bottom. Some customers however don't get the memo that this is how they should load and unload their cases. So for me it is just safer to put 25cts worth of foam at the bottom and let them load up in either direction.
At the SBE in 2010 I had a lunch with Bill Schick and Roy Malott. Well most of you know that Bill was somewhat of a road player himself back in the day, 60s and 70s. He ran the roads with people like Buddy Hall. And he happens to know all about It's George cases because of them both being in Shreveport, Louisiana.
Well I was listening to Bill and he made a comment that surprised me.
He said that we are all doing it wrong by putting the cues in bumper down and tips down. He said that the players in his day always put the cues in joint down and tips up so that they could immediately see which shaft they wanted to use. He said I was showing people the wrong way on my videos for how to load a GTF case.
So I started doing it that way and it's much better. Works great and is super easy to remove the cues. Try it you might like it.
Justis Cases
All I can say is I had an instroke for 12 years and just gave it up for my new Justis that I got in Vegas last month.
The case is lighter and protects my cues just as good if not better. I wish I would have purchased one years ago.
there must be something to Jack's Case is JB is copying it, cause we all know if it was no good no one would be interested.
Keep up the good work Jack, and thanks again for a great case.
All I can say is I had an instroke for 12 years and just gave it up for my new Justis that I got in Vegas last month.
The case is lighter and protects my cues just as good if not better. I wish I would have purchased one years ago.
there must be something to Jack's Case is JB is copying it, cause we all know if it was no good no one would be interested.
Keep up the good work Jack, and thanks again for a great case.
I don't get all this airport business. With Jacks exquisite exteriors, who would just hand that case over to the airlines? I would have to have a case for my case. Now if you have an exterior you know is cheap, and you don't care if the airlines scratch / nick it up, then fine.
But lets be honest, if you were to suffer a catastrophic impact, lets say a pallet of bricks falls onto either case, I don't think either case is going to help you.
Cases for normal use, anyone's case will probably suffice. If your local pool room doubles as your local roller derby rink, maybe you want something a little better.
JV (----maybe we should put rubber edges on ceiling fans so that you don't nick your shaft holding your cue to high.
But lets be honest, if you were to suffer a catastrophic impact, lets say a pallet of bricks falls onto either case, I don't think either case is going to help you.
Cases for normal use, anyone's case will probably suffice. If your local pool room doubles as your local roller derby rink, maybe you want something a little better.
JV (----maybe we should put rubber edges on ceiling fans so that you don't nick your shaft holding your cue to high.
12 years of good service from the Instroke case. I am glad to hear it.
I am not copying Jack's cases though. You won't find a single JB Case that copies any Justis case. If you do see one feel free to point it out. As far as I can tell just about everything that Justis does to make a case has been done by someone before him, with the exception of certain signature decorative elelments. I kind of take offense at the idea that I am copying Justis. As I said earlier in the thread I do not copy him but I will work in the same style that was done by Nora Van Horn/Jay Flowers and Dennis Swift long before Justis started working in it.
Jack has definitely evolved his own distinctive look with the straight lines and arrowheads and paint-pen inked lines and tooling. His style is much different than my style.
This one is the closest I have ever been to a Justis,
And this is the description on that page:
http://www.jbcases.com/jjj.html
My tribute to Jay and Jack.
Ok, well I figure I have spent enough time carving my own style so I will try a little of someone else's for a few cases. This is the first of my Jay , Jack , and John cases. Jay Flowers was the case maker for the first nice leather case I ever owned. Jack Justis was the maker of another nice one I had in this style, several actually. And then there is me and me and my ideas. So it's the Jay, Jack , and John case (JJJ , get it?) Alright so it's a little cheesy but hey I am short on time.
And I doubt that many people would ever look at this case and think that Justis made it.
Here is another one though where the customer wanted something Justis-like, I am actually very very proud of this one for reasons that are lost on most people.
The reason I am so proud of this case is because I wanted to do something that had the barest look of Justis but was very different and a bit complicated.
So I designed the pockets to BEND along with the line of tooling. Yet they still have 90 degree corners.
This took a lot of trial and error to figure out how to do them. I spent about a week doing patterns on the computer and then printing them out, cutting them out, taping them together and modeling them to see if my theories would work.
The customer was super pleased with the outcome as was I.
The J.Flowers tribute series are also not a copy of Justis. They have the size pockets that I developed long before Justis did, jump cue handle compartments, L-zippers, etc.... The cases are much more evocative of what Nora Van Horn/Jay FLowers and Dennis Swift have done than they are of Justis cases. To me at least. But I will take it as a compliment if you think that they remind you of Justis.
There is something to this style. It has very clean lines with the sharp corner box style pockets. That's what people like. And with our interior protection it really completes the picture for some people.
Here is a compilation of pictures of Justis cases for you to browse if you care to point out any that I have copied.
http://www.jbcases.com/gallery/index.php?g2_itemId=10434
Regarding the relative protection between the Instroke you had and the case you own I have written volumes on that already. No need to rehash it.
Here are some stories of people whose cues were harmed in cases.
https://docs.google.com/View?id=dfs8sf4x_39zhs28dz4
I have a lot more that are kind of catastrophic. Unfortunately they reside on a disk I can't find at the moment.
Here is a quick summary though, all of these are stories of Instroke cases saving the day.
Woman runs over her case in the driveway.
Woman crashes on scooter in Hawaii and case bounces across the highway.
Man flips car and car lands on case and slides with case trapped underneath.
Basketball backboard slips and flies down stairs and smacks case dead in the center.
Case slips under jacked up car and when jack is released the case is holding up the car.
My favorite: after marital spat man's fat wife dropkicks his case as it's leaning against wall.
Car burns up with case inside - outer leather singed cues were ok.
Another favorite; Bike messenger hit by taxi driver and bike messenger flies over taxi and lands on his back on top of his Instroke case. Credits Instroke case with saving his life.
That's about all I can remember off the top of my head.
Sometimes life just happens. A little more protection isn't a bad thing to have I think. And the premise of this thread is that anyone on Earth can have both. They can have Jack's exquisite work and my protection if they desire.
Do you get sexual gratification from shaking the case. If you do, I guess its OK. I just tried it and got nothing. Wondering if I did it hard enough.
Just trying to figure out what makes people do these strange things.
Please don't shake my case.:grin-square:
If you want to remove the butt first, you really have no choice but to put pin down in the GTF case. Cue damage can very easily happen when removing or replacing cues in the GTF case because of the tight fit. Its very obvious your aware of this, otherwise you would not have put out the video on how to load the GTF cases.
If case is dropped a tremendous amount of pressure is forced on the pin. The small amount of padding is not going to offer that much in preventing the pin from being bent. The stainless or brass pins are relatively soft and bend very easily in case your not aware of that.
After your telling everyone it's OK to go pin down in your cases did I feel compelled to warn our customers not to do this for obvious reason that a lot of so called experts still don't get and that includes you.
Common sense tells me pin up, tip down and I'm sticking to it
I used to use an Instroke case I bought new in probably '95. I can guarantee if it was run over by a car any cue inside would be horribly disfigured so the story about the case "saving the day" is complete bs. Also, the bottom accordioned on me a couple different times. That is, the bottom of the case pushed up, folding the outside tube on itself like a pant leg worn by someone too short for their britches. It was from years of carrying it by the top handle and setting it down less gently than I would a case made of glass. I use it for cue storage now and it never leaves the house.
I'm not much of a decorations and lace kind of guy but I imagine JB's cases look nice on the outside to those who do. They remind me of the very nice but too fancy for me Widowmaker cases Kinister used to sell.
IMO if you want ultimate protection Whitten stands alone. I prefer the smooth and simple look the their cases too. The price you pay for this extra protection is weight. It was a tough day at state back in March lugging my 3X6 around for 10 hrs or so. I loaded up my old Bentley case for day 2 of the tourney to save some shoulder strength for pool. The added bonus for my old Whitten is it wasn't made by Chinese children.
I'm not much of a decorations and lace kind of guy but I imagine JB's cases look nice on the outside to those who do. They remind me of the very nice but too fancy for me Widowmaker cases Kinister used to sell.
IMO if you want ultimate protection Whitten stands alone. I prefer the smooth and simple look the their cases too. The price you pay for this extra protection is weight. It was a tough day at state back in March lugging my 3X6 around for 10 hrs or so. I loaded up my old Bentley case for day 2 of the tourney to save some shoulder strength for pool. The added bonus for my old Whitten is it wasn't made by Chinese children.
The original post is, of course, propaganda.
Where is it an accepted fact that Jack changed his ways in response to John? and that seems to be the premise the thread was started on. Well I guess it was started to bring Jack and John to the table and at that it was successful.
Thanks
Kevin
PS I love the tip/up butt/down "controversy". In golf there's the whole fingers in or fingers out method of stuffing your glove in your back pocket when putting (assuming one takes their glove off at all).
Where is it an accepted fact that Jack changed his ways in response to John? and that seems to be the premise the thread was started on. Well I guess it was started to bring Jack and John to the table and at that it was successful.
Thanks
Kevin
PS I love the tip/up butt/down "controversy". In golf there's the whole fingers in or fingers out method of stuffing your glove in your back pocket when putting (assuming one takes their glove off at all).
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JB interiors
I see now that John Barton is still trying to sell his interiors to our customers without letting them know that if installed in our case our very generous lifetime warranty is null and void.
I see now that John Barton is still trying to sell his interiors to our customers without letting them know that if installed in our case our very generous lifetime warranty is null and void.
Dom,
I wonder if you are a shill for Barton. For a guy that has only a few posts, you seem to talk like the JB shill accounts, with the same rhetoric.
Anyhoo, I own both the older Justis case and the newer Prolite Justis case.
The newer Justis Prolite IS NOT A JB INSPIRED CASE and the INTERIOR HAS NO SIMILARITIES TO A JB CASE WHATSOEVER. It really is a bit of propaganda to insinuate that JB inspired anything there.
To answer you question, I feel both Justis cases, old and new, are "good". The old style case used individual tubes for each butt/shaft. The Prolite uses a hard plastic shell with soft fabric dividers to separate the butts/shafts. The difference is the weight. The Prolite is much lighter.
As far as protection of your cues, I feel a soft leather case can only provide so much protection. Once a case, any case, reaches that level, it is "good". To try to engineer mroe protection than the physical limitations of the material used is nuts. If someone were a true OCD cue protection nut, I would point them to an aluminum Haliburton Zero case. These cases are like a suitcase. They have an aluminum shell and foam interior, wich securely holds the butt and shaft. IMO, this would be the most abuse resistant case on the market. It would also suck to lug this thing around.
I've used both the old style Justis case and the new Prolite style for the past 10 years or so. I've carried my case on a bike (a vibrating Harley), traveled via airplane, threw them in the trunk of my car numerous times. I've never had an incident or damage.
I think most cases on the market offer plenty of protection assuming the owner handles them with the mindset that cues are somewhat fragile. That really is the key.
Eric
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Thanks, I asked that question above and had not as yet got a response.
That is correct. This is because the way this style of case is made the butts and shafts must go opposite of each other. I didn't invent this size of case, I inherited it. I was asked to build a case in this style and so I did with the same size tubes as Fellini, It's George, and Ron Thomas among many others have used for the past 40 years. I don't really see your point here.
This is incorrect. The snug, not tight fit does not cause damage. Again this type of case is made to be very efficient with the space. Long before you were a case maker cases in this size have been on the market and did very well. Fellini, Centennial, Ann Gore, It's George, Kelli, Schon, McDermott and Ron Thomas are all brands of cases that used the same sized tubes as what we use on the GTF Cases.
The reason I made a video on how to load the case is because It's George quit making cases in 1995 and up until GTF went on the market 3 years ago only Ron Thomas was left making this style. So the public at large was out of touch with this style and how to properly load it. A lot of GTF's customers were used to the larger cases which have much more room to simply drop each part into it's cavity. Because we had gotten a few phone calls from folks who were having trouble I felt it was better to simply make a video that could be referred to as needed.
I guess we will have to disagree. I will be more than happy to do a public test and prove that I can back up what I say about our cases.
In our cases it's not only the padding at the bottom which protects the cue but also the padding on the sides which keeps the cue from moving excessively.
I am afraid I don't understand what you are saying here. You feel compelled to warn your customers that they shouldn't put their cues pin down in our cases?
All I know is that I believe that I might be the only case maker who has done extensive, albeit primitive, research and development on case dynamics. I won't bore you with the details but a short list of things I have done include dropping cases from six floors up, running over them, throwing them across the room, beating them with baseball bats, submerging them in water, putting them outside in the pouring rain, leaving them in the snow, leaving them in the heat, leaving them in the trunk of cars in all seasons, putting them over very hot heating vents, subjecting them to steam.......all this with cues inside and often very expensive cues at that.
So I have to believe that the way I build cases is not harmful to cues at all. And I think that 20 years and more than 25,000 cases in the market is a decent track record.
I am not sure how you figure it's common sense? As I mentioned earlier Bill Schick, the highly respected hall-of-fame cuemaker, told me specifically that he and his road buddies all used to carry their cues joint down. And I believe that this was in the pre-joint protector era as well.
And if I may, your case has no padding in the top or the bottom. So doesn't your logic apply to the top as well as the bottom. I mean if a case were to somehow accidentally land on the lid wouldn't that tremendous force you mentioned also act on the cue just as much? Please understand that I enjoy a nice discussion on case making and cue protection. I'd be more than happy to do this in a public arena and on video where we can each do live demonstrations.
I have a friend who has 10 brand new SouthWest cues that he will give me to do drop tests with. Would you be willing to do the same?
I only ask because when you make assertions as to what will and will not protect a cue and what will and will not harm a cue I stand willing to test those statements. I believe that in just about every field there are competitors who each believe that their way is best and sometimes there just has to be a head to head demonstration to test each maker's claims.
So whenever it's convenient for us both I stand ready to bring my products and allow them to be thoroughly tested using whatever claims you make about them as well as whatever claims I make about them.
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I don't know that I am obligated to tell people this. Shouldn't you put out a warranty card explaining to your customers what the warranty entails and what voids it?
I mentioned this several times in past threads and don't see any reason to continue to mention it.
I would suggest that you put this on your website so that your customers are all informed. As I have said in the past it is completely your right to treat your customers in any manner of your choosing.
If I made a case where the interior could be removed without tools and then I would not see why doing so should invalidate the warranty on the rest of the case. But that is just how I would deal with it if I made such a case.
And in fact soon I will make a case where the interiors are removable and interchangeable and when I do if someone else makes an interior that fits seamlessly into my shells then more power to them. In fact I would hope upon hope that dozens of vendors would start making aftermarket interiors for my cases. As long as I am selling the main case I don't really care what the customer chooses to put inside it.
I am really not sure why you feel that this is a big deal. I understand the emotion certainly. I understand the hate you show towards me. I earned it. But at the end of the day me offering an alternative interior for your case is only beneficial to you. If someone is on the fence then for $65 more they get to own a "Justis" but have the type of protection that they prefer. So you make the sale and the customer gets what they want. I make like $30.
But by telling people that you will void their warranty because they elect to do something that is in no way harmful to the exterior of the case, something which requires no tools and zero alteration of the exterior is kind of a turn-off for existing and potential customers. At least that's how I see it.
To me it's kind of like a cue company saying that they will void the warranty if a customer uses a shaft from another company on their butt.
But anyway, people, you are warned.
I think you missed the boat a little on the discussion. Dom Poppa, who is not affiliated with me but the way, was discussing which interior is better, the Pro-Lite or the Sport interior. The Pro-Lite is the one with a bit of nice fabric on top and then spliced into thin nylon below the first four inches or so (I really need to measure this).
The Sport interior is Jack's newer one where the nice fabric extends all the way to the bottom and it has a little more padding in between the cavities.
You'll have to read the blog entry to find out why I feel that this Sport interior came into being. In any event as a protection nut I always feel that more padding is better so my vote is that the Sport interior is the better choice if one has a choice in stock Justis interiors.
And of course I feel that the Ultra Pad is an even better choice for someone who prefers that their cues don't rattle or move needlessly while in transit.