I'll take your lack of response as you do not own a Justis and are just stirring sh*t up.
Thanks for the red rep though lol, dork.
Justis Cases - ALERT
- Thread starter Jack Justis
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I'll take your lack of response as you do not own a Justis and are just stirring sh*t up.
Thanks for the red rep though lol, dork.
Well, that's the problem. Equating hard with good is the mistake. Have you seen how baggage handlers deal with baggage? It's not that they are TRYING to break the stuff they are throwing around but that they don't have the time to be careful. I have seen hard suitcases thrown onto the bags containing my cue cases. I have seen my dealer cases, 16x32 sizes with more than 25k in cues in them thrown from the baggage handler's cart, miss the conveyer belt and fall six feet to the ground only to have another baggage handler throw it on the conveyer from five feet away. Hans Joerg Bertram, a German cue maker and I watched this from the window in the waiting area and winced since several of the cues inside were his. He worried about it all the way to the USA.
It's really simple. Some padding is better than no padding and more padding is better than some padding. No padding may be adequate for most situations but more padding is better for all situations.
Samsonite built their reputation on being more durable that other brands. Or at least advertising that they were.
Recently I went to the ICCS show. I had a case to carry cases in that was made to carry a heavier massage chair. On cursory inspection this case seems very well made, with big durable zippers, reinforced handles, heavy duty wheels, etc....
It didn't survive the flight. One of the wheels was broken. I managed to fix it enough to be able to use it. My repair held on the way home.
This time though the wheel was lost completely. What kind of handling was this bag subjected to that would rip the wheel out of the molded plastic housing???
The point of all this is that the consumer can look at their choices and make the decision to buy as much or as little protection as they want.
It's a mistake to assume that all hard cases are the same. They aren't.
I love the "Case Wars", Got my Spite and M&M's(peanut of course), cant think of a better way to spend a Friday night.
No disrespect to Jack or JB. Your both good in my book. You guys remind me of Isreal and the Palistainians, both sides show alot of heart.
Happy Holidays,
Fatboy
No disrespect to Jack or JB. Your both good in my book. You guys remind me of Isreal and the Palistainians, both sides show alot of heart.
Happy Holidays,
Fatboy
My point is that there are no Original designs except some of those made more than 100 years ago by unknown individuals, all cases made today have there designs borrowed from the past. Yes many have modified these designs to improve the product but all current cases designs have major elements from the past. Look at the old Brunswick Cases from the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's, look at the cases made by Harvey martin starting the 1940's. By doing this you will see components of all the current designs made in the last 40 years.
Now I agree John is an innovator, and so is Jack and many others are also, but I think it is important to keep things in perspective and not make statements that are not completely true, it just looks better!!!
No disrespect intended!!
Yes and no.
It's true that just about everything is built on that which came before it.
But I have studied case making pretty extensively and feel pretty sure that I have come up with some innovations that no one has done before.
One of the reasons I am often so slow to tend to business at hand is because I will get wrapped up in studying the history of handbags, the history of packaging, how cowboy boots are made, etc.... I regularly browse Ebay and Etsy and other websites looking for old leather goods. I study cases for flyrods, cigars, instruments, etc.... to learn how they are made, what's good on them, what's not.
I certainly agree that people aren't reinventing the wheel all the time. But at the same time it's not fair to say that everything is a "copy" of what's come before.
For example while Harvey Martin did do some things that are found on cases today I have never seen any of the cases from that period which had padded interiors in the way I make them. Most of them had thin nylon dividers or nothing. Some of them including the Martins had exposed metal where the cue could rub against it.
Also, I am pretty sure that the Hager cases have never been done before by anyone.
I have never seen anything like them.
Yes and no.
It's true that just about everything is built on that which came before it.
But I have studied case making pretty extensively and feel pretty sure that I have come up with some innovations that no one has done before.
One of the reasons I am often so slow to tend to business at hand is because I will get wrapped up in studying the history of handbags, the history of packaging, how cowboy boots are made, etc.... I regularly browse Ebay and Etsy and other websites looking for old leather goods. I study cases for flyrods, cigars, instruments, etc.... to learn how they are made, what's good on them, what's not.
I certainly agree that people aren't reinventing the wheel all the time. But at the same time it's not fair to say that everything is a "copy" of what's come before.
For example while Harvey Martin did do some things that are found on cases today I have never seen any of the cases from that period which had padded interiors in the way I make them. Most of them had thin nylon dividers or nothing. Some of them including the Martins had exposed metal where the cue could rub against it.
Also, I am pretty sure that the Hager cases have never been done before by anyone.
Here is a Martin Case from the 1950's, I bought it from the original owner it came with his cue when Harvey made it for him, and in this case you can plainly see how much it influenced cases made today. This case was in my personal collection for many years, but a AZ member made me an offer I could not refuse!!
If you notice John, while the case is not padded it is felt lined with sleeves that went from top to bottom, in addition these cases had padding in the lid and on the bottom of the case.
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Here is a Martin Case from the 1950's, I bought it from the original owner it came with his cue when Harvey made it for him, and in this case you can plainly see how much it influenced cases made today. This case was in my personal collection for many years, but a AZ member made me an offer I could not refuse!!
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I am not sure what your point is but thanks for the pictures. Yes, Harvey Martin did cases with a lid and a latch and a handle and divided compartments. Those elements are common to cases of all types.
What is interesting is the fact that he did the folded leather ends. He skived them very thin, paper thin, so that they would lay down and fit the curve tightly. Also if you look closely you can see that he put a very secure handle on the case.
I was highly impressed with the one I saw at the ICCS that was just like yours except in black.
My point remains the same though. I won't deny that I took my influence from those that came before me and still today from those who are making cases alongside me. But I have brought new things to cases that weren't done before. These innovations will then serve to influence the designs of case makers who come after me.
Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
I just dont get it...
Jack does his thing...been since I met him in the 80's and he does it well. Ive never seen/heard him try to re-invent or re-design your cases.
I dont know what the obsession is with you riding Jack's jockstrap but its real obvious you have beef with him.
Because all the text in the world cant mask the fact you are both jealous and bitter.
Jack does his thing...been since I met him in the 80's and he does it well. Ive never seen/heard him try to re-invent or re-design your cases.
I dont know what the obsession is with you riding Jack's jockstrap but its real obvious you have beef with him.
Because all the text in the world cant mask the fact you are both jealous and bitter.
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I know that you have made inovations and even new designs, I only posted the photo's so that some of the less educated members who are making comments throughout this thread could see what came before. I also like you said you can clearly see where many designs came from like the Felini and Centenial cases.
Here is a couple of very rare cases that were made here in Seattle Washington. The gentleman who made them to my knowledge most likely made less than 100 cases before his death in 1987. The case were made in his garage and they came with a Brad Scuffer in the lid and a leather tag inside that says Mckernan Case Company Seattle WA. In my opinion these case are for more rare then the Felini or Centennial cases and they are really good quality and also very unique. Again John I am just sharing something many have never seen and most likely never will. The exterior of these cases is a wood Veneer wrapped around a very hard tube and the lids have a rubber gasket that seals the case, enjoy the photo's.
Enjoy
I have read and reread all the various discussions and I must admit I agree with both parties.
I purchased my Justis on eBay while I was trying to decide if I was going to order one direct from Jack. It was simply too good a deal to pass up. Now one of the main reasons it was such a deal was that it was slightly damaged. It was actually missing the snap that the lid attaches to the case. I talked with Jack and he advised I had a couple of choices. I could send the case to him to be repaired OR he could send another snap and I could have a local shoe or leather repair place install the snap. I actually chose the latter and Jack sent me the snap at no cost.
When I checked out the case closer I could tell why the snap had broken/failed. It appeared as if the interior of the case was slightly higher (1/8 to 1/4 inch) than the outside so this was putting a strain/stress on the lid. I sent Jack pictures and he advised things did not look right. He advised that I had 2 choices. I could send the case back to him and he could repair it OR he told me how I could perform the repair myself. He emailed me the instructions on how to remove the interior. I chose the latter and found it was a fairly easy fix. Now for me it is neither here nor there on what caused the interior to be slightly raised. Did the leather exterior shrink or sag? Who cares..... I actually fixed it myself using Jacks instructions.
What I can say is that Jack was supportive even though I was not the original purchaser. Now if I had been the original purchaser I would have been hesitant to do the work myself and I would have definitely sent the case back to him for repair. Was it in his best interest to help me out???? Absolutely because folks all admire the case when I bring it out.
Now as to John Barton. He is the same way about his products. He is passionate about the subject. I purchased a GTF case that I had problems with the strap coming easily unsnapped. You will need to search for my post on that subject. The bottom line is the first time the strap snapped the case tumbled off my shoulder and hit on the lid. This caused the top of the lid to pop off due to the force it hit the pavement with. It all actually exposed the interior of the case. My cues REMAINED in the case because of John's interior. I dare say that if it had been my justis case or any of my other cases, the cues would have come flying out of the case. After I spoke with John he sent me a replacement strap with some enhancements to prevent future problems.
This is not meant to slam Justis or Barton and their designs. This is meant to show that they both care deeply and passionately about their products.
Did they have to help me out? Not really because in Jacks case I was not the original purchaser and in John's case he merely designed the GTF case for a customer.
I must admit though that their passions are leading to some negativism and turning potential customers away. Can you imagine if they collaborated on a project?
Finally I must admit that I do believe that the Justis case interior could and should be improved. I doubt I will ever buy another Justis case because of the current interior. I am disappointed that he does not offer a retrofit for current owners if they so desire. If he doesn't offer the retrofit then I am glad that somebody else does? While I might get flamed for this I do believe that Jack is being a little shortsighted and not seeing the bigger picture. A retrofit or similar can only make his product even better.
By the same token John is not exactly a saint either. I can only attribute this to his passion. I don't know and I don't really care who threw the first stone or disparaged the other.
All I know is I love my Justis and I love my GTF case. Hell I love all my cases. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. After seeing what can happen to your cues, I wish the interior was a little bit better with the Justis because accidents do happen. ie suppose I forget to snap the lid and the case falls off my shoulder. The lid opens and my cues come flying out. You can say serves me right for being careless but accidents do happen no matter how careful we are.
I purchased my Justis on eBay while I was trying to decide if I was going to order one direct from Jack. It was simply too good a deal to pass up. Now one of the main reasons it was such a deal was that it was slightly damaged. It was actually missing the snap that the lid attaches to the case. I talked with Jack and he advised I had a couple of choices. I could send the case to him to be repaired OR he could send another snap and I could have a local shoe or leather repair place install the snap. I actually chose the latter and Jack sent me the snap at no cost.
When I checked out the case closer I could tell why the snap had broken/failed. It appeared as if the interior of the case was slightly higher (1/8 to 1/4 inch) than the outside so this was putting a strain/stress on the lid. I sent Jack pictures and he advised things did not look right. He advised that I had 2 choices. I could send the case back to him and he could repair it OR he told me how I could perform the repair myself. He emailed me the instructions on how to remove the interior. I chose the latter and found it was a fairly easy fix. Now for me it is neither here nor there on what caused the interior to be slightly raised. Did the leather exterior shrink or sag? Who cares..... I actually fixed it myself using Jacks instructions.
What I can say is that Jack was supportive even though I was not the original purchaser. Now if I had been the original purchaser I would have been hesitant to do the work myself and I would have definitely sent the case back to him for repair. Was it in his best interest to help me out???? Absolutely because folks all admire the case when I bring it out.
Now as to John Barton. He is the same way about his products. He is passionate about the subject. I purchased a GTF case that I had problems with the strap coming easily unsnapped. You will need to search for my post on that subject. The bottom line is the first time the strap snapped the case tumbled off my shoulder and hit on the lid. This caused the top of the lid to pop off due to the force it hit the pavement with. It all actually exposed the interior of the case. My cues REMAINED in the case because of John's interior. I dare say that if it had been my justis case or any of my other cases, the cues would have come flying out of the case. After I spoke with John he sent me a replacement strap with some enhancements to prevent future problems.
This is not meant to slam Justis or Barton and their designs. This is meant to show that they both care deeply and passionately about their products.
Did they have to help me out? Not really because in Jacks case I was not the original purchaser and in John's case he merely designed the GTF case for a customer.
I must admit though that their passions are leading to some negativism and turning potential customers away. Can you imagine if they collaborated on a project?
Finally I must admit that I do believe that the Justis case interior could and should be improved. I doubt I will ever buy another Justis case because of the current interior. I am disappointed that he does not offer a retrofit for current owners if they so desire. If he doesn't offer the retrofit then I am glad that somebody else does? While I might get flamed for this I do believe that Jack is being a little shortsighted and not seeing the bigger picture. A retrofit or similar can only make his product even better.
By the same token John is not exactly a saint either. I can only attribute this to his passion. I don't know and I don't really care who threw the first stone or disparaged the other.
All I know is I love my Justis and I love my GTF case. Hell I love all my cases. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. After seeing what can happen to your cues, I wish the interior was a little bit better with the Justis because accidents do happen. ie suppose I forget to snap the lid and the case falls off my shoulder. The lid opens and my cues come flying out. You can say serves me right for being careless but accidents do happen no matter how careful we are.
Look, I have no beef with Jack Justis.
I am offering my version of interior as a replacement for the stock Justis. That's all. In the future I will offer replacement interiors for all cases.
The reason I am offering this is because I can and it's easy to replace the interior in a Justis. There is a demand for these and I can fill it.
As you can see in the thread people have also asked about replacing the interiors in other brands. So obviously this is something that is wanted.
Nothing more nothing less.
I simply want to provide superior protection and I will settle for selling the interiors to those who want them. Either way my goal is reached when customers are protecting their cues with my interiors.
Would a cue maker void the warranty on one of his cues if you put a new joint in the cue yourself ?
Shit yes. How on earth people can't see that Jack won't agree to fix a case that someone butchers trying replace the interior on because they got all worked up about some BS on the internet should shock only someone who would pay $65 for something goofy.
As far as copies, Jack puts one name on the cases he makes: His. Barton can not say the same. He puts a dead mans name on cases he makes with out approval or compensation to the mans estate. This obsession John has is beyond funny now and gotten down right ugly.
Why not pick on Whitten? Why not Swift? Because they are not here to engage and defend themselves thus allowing this crazy MF to continue his crazy.
I met John in person at the ICCS this year and thought he was a very pleasant guy despite some of the times we have butted heads here before. The fact that he will not let this die and continues to go so far as import and sell interiors for one particular makers cases just to keep the BS alive has convinced me that this dude has a real problem.
For the record I don't give a shit whose cases protect the cue better. I am not a jackass with my gear so I don't worry about "What if you drop it from 4 feet?" Because if that happens I am a jackass and get what I deserve. I will bet anyone here that I can harm a cue inside any leather case currently made. You send me the cue and case I will post a video and send you the pieces and you can paypal me the dough. What will it prove ? Not a damn thing just like all of Barton's bullshit.
Shit yes. How on earth people can't see that Jack won't agree to fix a case that someone butchers trying replace the interior on because they got all worked up about some BS on the internet should shock only someone who would pay $65 for something goofy.
As far as copies, Jack puts one name on the cases he makes: His. Barton can not say the same. He puts a dead mans name on cases he makes with out approval or compensation to the mans estate. This obsession John has is beyond funny now and gotten down right ugly.
Why not pick on Whitten? Why not Swift? Because they are not here to engage and defend themselves thus allowing this crazy MF to continue his crazy.
I met John in person at the ICCS this year and thought he was a very pleasant guy despite some of the times we have butted heads here before. The fact that he will not let this die and continues to go so far as import and sell interiors for one particular makers cases just to keep the BS alive has convinced me that this dude has a real problem.
For the record I don't give a shit whose cases protect the cue better. I am not a jackass with my gear so I don't worry about "What if you drop it from 4 feet?" Because if that happens I am a jackass and get what I deserve. I will bet anyone here that I can harm a cue inside any leather case currently made. You send me the cue and case I will post a video and send you the pieces and you can paypal me the dough. What will it prove ? Not a damn thing just like all of Barton's bullshit.
i do not own one of your cases or a justis case but i disagree with your statement here. i like the car comparison here, if u change the rims on a toyota it doesnt void the warranty but if u go under the hood it does. same thing with his cases, anything inside should void HIS warranty. why should he put the time and effort into building a quality case if someones just gonna rip out the inside ? then he has to warranty someone elses work? if u change the ferrule on a predator shaft do they warranty it? hell no. bottom line is its his work, his rules, his warranty.
Pick on? I have clearly said that I feel our protection is better than Whitten and Swift many times.
I consider Dan and Joe to be friends and have no problem telling them that I think my case protects better than theirs.
As for your video I will take your bet. You let me design the test and I will bet that you can break the cue far easier inside one of my competitor's cases than in one of mine.
You know, I wish that you would take five minutes to educate yourself about trademarks.
You keep beating this horse about me naming the cases J.Flowers as if this is something illegal and immoral.
Get over it. It's neither illegal nor immoral.
First of all Jay Flowers himself gave me permission to make Flowers style cases. You'll have to take my word on that.
Secondly, Chris Tate interviewed Jay Flowers before he died and has stated that he thinks Jay would be be proud that someone is honoring him this way.
Thirdly, Jay's brand was J.E.F. Q Cases. Not J.Flowers.
His "estate" is owed nothing by me. Legally the brand is dead and is there for anyone to use. I didn't choose to use it and instead chose to use J.Flowers, which is a COMPLETELY NEW brand name.
So if you can stop the muckraking for a moment and climb down off your high horse you would see that I am not doing anything that is illegal nor immoral.
Beside that you have FORGOTTEN - conveniently I might add - that I told you to get me in touch with Jay Flowers' widow and I would offer to do something with her.
You just spent a few weeks in Florida. If this issue pisses you off so much then you should have asked around, I am sure someone could have pointed you in the right direction.
I am a pleasant person. I also happen to be quite sure that what I am doing and how I build cases is the right way to do it.
Like I told Chad I will tell you the same. Get off the moral pedestal. If you have been involved in pool action as deeply as you say you have then you have been around and participated in fooling people to make money. All of us who have been involved in pool action have been at some time or another. Even if it's just something like withholding information about the true speed of a player when directly asked.
Get off my back Justin. You are not impartial here. Jack Justis donated a case to the Action Report. If you are so moral then that disclaimer should be present in EVERY post you make that is critical of me.
Well I would agree if the interior was hard to take out. For example on my cases, Whitten's and most others the interior cannot be removed without the use of tools and some work.
But on the Justis Pro-Lite the interior is easily removable for the express purpose of being easily removable. Mr. Justis does not make these interiors, they are purchased from a factory who delivers them complete.
So it's not like there is a major amount of work here.
Also, I have said it's his right to do what he wants. I happen to feel differently and would approach it differently.
Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
You responded with your reasoning, fair enuff. Justin asked a very interesting question after I posted. Why not Swift, Whitten or Murnak for that matter? My question is like his...why just JJ? Can ya see how it looks like your jocksniffing?
I think the offering of some linings for older, out of production cases is not only noble but a good business move. I probably would have bought one for my aging George and a SuperMac if the whole thing didnt look like...to me an attack on Jack Justice.
How it looks to you and what it is are two different things. And at the end of the day who cares really? If the impetus to offer this was a beef then so what? It's a win for consumers who now have TWO choices of interior for their Justis case.
If Justin or you or anyone for that matter would ever bother to read what I have written in the past and stop hanging on Jack's nuts, or Jim's nuts then you would clearly see that I have talked out Murnak and Whitten and other case maker's products in a comparative way in the past when the discussion warranted it.
You talk about hanging on someone's jock when your only contribution to the thread is to put in a character reference and tell everyone that the Justis interior is sufficient?
It's real easy. Jack Justis is warning people that fiddling with the interior voids his warranty. That's his right.
If I posted a replacement kit for a Whitten then I would expect the Whittens to do the same if they felt that they needed to.
This is pure crazy.
In all other areas in life people can buy upgrade or mod kits for their stuff. Yesterday I walked into an Apple store with my jailbroken Ipod touch in my pocket. Apple builds a GREAT PRODUCT but it doesn't work like I want it to work. So I modified it to do what I want it to do.
If I want it to be back in spec then I will update it with the official Apple software. It's that simple.
I don't need to run down the list of people who offer aftermarket mods for products.
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