Just curious but what is your speed or FR if you have one? You don't think you WAY over think some of this stuff? I've known world champions that have NO CLUE what their shafts weighed nor did they care. Whatever floats ur boat but this stuff really means nada in the big picture of playing the game. I've known a few golf club 'tech junkies' that had all the best, fitted stuff and still couldn't break 100 on their best day. Hope you find your 'unicorn shaft'.
Kielwood Shaft Search
- Thread starter Bavafongoul
- Start date
I couldn’t agree more when you possess a championship quality stroke, you can play with a 17 oz. conical shape house cue or a 21 oz. cue that’s all beat up. I do not have a Fargo rating but a lot of my buddies do that participate in BCA League. I think when you’ve guidelines to follow, a cue maker should be able to build it accordingly.
I want my shafts to weigh 20-22% of my cue’s playing weight but 18% is the lowest I’d go. That a 4% spread for a cue maker to build the shaft which is generous, IMO. So with my cues, I want shafts that weigh 3.8 ozs. min and 4.2 ozs. max. Could I still play with a 3.65 oz. shaft? Absolutely, but I’d never buy it. Why? Because it does not meet my parameters and the six cues in my case were built to meet these specs and why in heavens sake would I change now only because I quit trying to locate a cue maker. I don’t know the word quit…….not when I know what I want is absolutely attainable.
I had a wonderful conversation with Jacoby Cues today. Tony thinks he has a way of coring the shaft that will help and I told them if need be, they could use a 1” ferrule or make the shaft 30” and even a shorter taper than the 19” they’d typically use. I was ready to pay right now and instead, they said not necessary. In fact, they are going to build me a 2nd shaft at the same time with a different thread and I don’t have to pay for it unless I like how it turns out. That also applies to the first KW shat they are going to build for me. It was wonderful to work with a builder that has a can do attitude when it comes to building a cue or shaft. I think Jackby is going to successfully pull this off and the mere fact they’re willing to try tells me this is a company willing to go the extra effort to make a client happy.
Now back to my specs……18- 22%…….do the math and then look closely at the best names in cue making the last 75 years and see how they built their cues……..they respected the math too but didn’t formulize this like myself. They knew what a well built cue required and their reputations were built on making great pool cues that required great shafts. A talented pool player is not great because of his pool cue but rather how he uses it and the specs aren’t important.
So the idea of buying a KW shaft that is lighter than any shaft I own, i.e., play, seems frivolous & totally unnecessary.
Cory Barnhart already builds a KW equivalent shaft called roasted maple. I own one and it falls within my weight ratio.
If Cory can, why can’t these other cue builders I contacted? Yes, I know…..it’s all about having the right wood. I think
Schmelke might have been able to do it based on how my friend’s KW shafts turned out. Nonetheless, I wasn’t going to relent on my search and just settle for any KW shaft lighter than I wanted. Jacoby Cues t wasn’t intimidated to attempt building it and seemed optimistic they could. Now that’s the type of attitude I was hoping to encounter. Fortunately I have a Unicorn shaft that Cory built. I’m just a greedy old cuss because I want 2 similar KW shafts so all my cues e enjoy a Unicorn shaft.
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Have you tried Sawdust cues? I have one of their kielwood shafts that is 29" long, 12.6 mm diameter and weighs 3.9 oz. Not quite 4 oz, but maybe he has some that are heavier. It is for radial pin. Don't see any inserts, but don't know for sure that it doesn't.
P
Sawdust built you a wonderful shaft. I’d be happy with 3.9 but I’d also be happier with 4.0 or 4.1. It is admittedly a seemingly minuscule of a difference. I wouldn’t disagree with that observation. But it helps get closer to the % ratio I happen to believe is the sweet spot at 20-21% that the majority of my cues are because the cue makers built them to my specs.
4 ozs. Isn’t what’s needed. Just a shaft that falls within a specific weight ratio. All my flat faced cues have the same butt weight (14.5-14.6 ozs.). 4 ozs or 4.1 is the ideal but 3.8 ozs. also works. I’ve tried explaining it & seems straightforward
math. Now would I play with a 3.5 or 3.6 oz. shaft, of course I would, the shafts would still play okay but why should I?
Why buy something that wasn’t built the way I want? I’ve played with original maple shafts for 64 years and had no gripes. Willie played with them and won a few championships using them. I don’t need KW shafts but I still want two more built.
The difference between needs and wants is very significant but a lot of folks mistakenly confuse the two. What you want, you may not actually need and what you need, you may not actually want. Examples of each are….a $12k Searing Custom Cue & a Colonoscopy……..Can you figure out which is which? Needs and wants are very different.
It’s like buying a new car at the dealership but the exterior and interior colors aren’t what you want but it’s take it or leave it. So every time you see the same car with the color combination you had your heart set on, it will haunt you.
Why? Because you settled and still got that brand new car model you wanted but it doesn’t resemble the one you had
in mind. If I am paying someone to build a cue or a shaft, they need to build it to my specs, convince me why my specs
should change or let me know they’ll try but if I’m not pleased because the specs are off, I don’t have to purchase it. The only other option is to decline building it because there’s always someone else that would. Just be honest about it.
I’m not pleading to build a KW shaft the way I want it made. Heck no, I’m hiring someone to build it and so my preferences should be paramount to anything else when a cue builder accepts your business. To think this way is not arrogant or overly presumptive. It is the basic tenant of business. You know what you want, they know what you want and either deliver or decline but if there’s any middle ground to be found, discover it and plant your feet firmly before accepting the order. If it’s a best efforts attempt, say so up front and make sure there aren’t unmentioned expectations by either side.
This has turned into an interesting experience. I’ve been made aware this week that there are a few cue builders that can make the shaft I want. It’s taken a long time to learn whom but suddenly, there’s several I’ve discovered thanks to some helpful Azers. However, to be fair, Jacoby Cues is the first cue maker I located that said we can build it the way you want.
Randy,
Sawdust built you a wonderful shaft. I’d be happy with 3.9 but I’d also be happier with 4.0 or 4.1. It is admittedly a seemingly minuscule of a difference. I wouldn’t disagree with that observation. But it helps get closer to the % ratio I happen to believe is the sweet spot at 20-21% that the majority of my cues are because the cue makers built them to my specs.
4 ozs. Isn’t what’s needed. Just a shaft that falls within a specific weight ratio. All my flat faced cues have the same butt weight (14.5-14.6 ozs.). 4 ozs or 4.1 is the ideal but 3.8 ozs. also works. I’ve tried explaining it & seems straightforward
math. Now would I play with a 3.5 or 3.6 oz. shaft, of course I would, the shafts would still play okay but why should I?
Why buy something that wasn’t built the way I want? I’ve played with original maple shafts for 64 years and had no gripes. Willie played with them and won a few championships using them. I don’t need KW shafts but I still want two more built.
The difference between needs and wants is very significant but a lot of folks mistakenly confuse the two. What you want, you may not actually need and what you need, you may not actually want. Examples of each are….a $12k Searing Custom Cue & a Colonoscopy……..Can you figure out which is which? Needs and wants are very different.
It’s like buying a new car at the dealership but the exterior and interior colors aren’t what you want but it’s take it or leave it. So every time you see the same car with the color combination you had your heart set on, it will haunt you.
Why? Because you settled and still got that brand new car model you wanted but it doesn’t resemble the one you had
in mind. If I am paying someone to build a cue or a shaft, they need to build it to my specs, convince me why my specs
should change or let me know they’ll try but if I’m not pleased because the specs are off, I don’t have to purchase it. The only other option is to decline building it because there’s always someone else that would. Just be honest about it.
I’m not pleading to build a KW shaft the way I want it made. Heck no, I’m hiring someone to build it and so my preferences should be paramount to anything else when a cue builder accepts your business. To think this way is not arrogant or overly presumptive. It is the basic tenant of business. You know what you want, they know what you want and either deliver or decline but if there’s any middle ground to be found, discover it and plant your feet firmly before accepting the order. If it’s a best efforts attempt, say so up front and make sure there aren’t unmentioned expectations by either side.
This has turned into an interesting experience. I’ve been made aware this week that there are a few cue builders that can make the shaft I want. It’s taken a long time to learn whom but suddenly, there’s several I’ve discovered thanks to some helpful Azers. However, to be fair, Jacoby Cues is the first cue maker I located that said we can build it the way you want.
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billiards_watch
Well-known member
Geez all the cues are alike. Don't you want variety?
Actually I really don’t. It’s not like golf clubs where the sticks are intentionally different. I actually want uniformity, consistency, reliability and repeatability in the way my stroke feels. A violinist may change musical instruments but usually still use the same bow(s) because of how it feels and plays. A well-balanced bow will feel comfortable in your hand and allow you to produce a consistent sound across all strings. The weight of the bow can affect your playing characteristics.
With my cues, I want them to emulate the same tactile feeling regardless of the cue so it’s why I had the cues made alike, except for the actual designs that I admit I may have got carried away with. However, I also wanted some curbside appeal and a more distinct, different design than what you typically see. This way my kids and grandkids will inherit pool cues that are at least pretty and one of a kind designs.
I believe like Bryson DeChambeau, being consistent pays off. All of his irons are the same length from short irons to long irons. He wants to use the same swing so the shafts are all alike. That’s what I did with my pool cues. Other than looks, the cues are the same weights, big pin flat faced joints and shafts built with my specs. I changed most of the tips, except my Prewitt, to Kamui Black Clear soft for consistency. I think the more in touch you are with your equipment, the more you can get better control & execute your stroke by how it’s feels. Using cues built using the same specs helps that happen, IMO.
My daily is a Kielwood. Heavy bugger. 4.3oz @ 31". Hits like CF but retains the sensitivity of maple to feel the shot.
I love it.
Tried beeswax for pins and threads??
Why would you want to kiln that?? Just lathe it out for an awesome shaft!!!
billiards_watch
Well-known member
We're all nutty in our own senses I guess. You are what I call the 'classical conditioning' and I am the 'romantic conditioning'.
From a book I read, you love the nuts and bolts of a motorcycle. You love the engine that produces the horse power and the zero to 60 time. The tires that give you that smooth ride. The cool handlebars that make you feel comfortable.
I like it because its a bad ass Harley. I like riding so I can feel the wind in my hair and I like riding because it gives me freedom.
To each its own.
Sounds like a good lead.
I wonder what they will do exactly to get that weight up?
It's an interesting problem since it seems part of the intention of the process to make these shafts is to make them lighter.
I have read some of your other posts on this. It made me think of the Pechauer "Black Ice" break shafts. They go over six ounces. It's some kind of pressure infusion of black dye or stain. Sort of like pressure treated marine lumber I guess, without the nasty chemicals. At any rate, I wonder if a maker could use such a process first to get the weight up, then roast the shaft.
If the search continues, maybe ask Pechauer about it, if you haven't already. Perhaps even suggest what I proposed here. Maybe suggest it to any maker willing to take a crack at it.
I received my Hsunami 2.0 in January. It is 3/8 10 flat face and 29 inches - the shaft weighs 3.7 ounces. I would imagine a 30 inch Hsunami could get to 3.8- 3.9 if mine at 29 is 3.7.
Obviously does not matter if you truly need a 29 KW at 4 oz. My Hsunami was $475 all in - I only sprung for one when my wife kicked in half as a BD gift- otherwise no go.
The Hsunami has the best finish on any wood shaft I have ever owned - not sure what he does to it - but it is truly amazing in that respect.
The Hsunami 2.0 is a very nice looking and playing shaft - however I don’t personally see $475 value for the shaft - but he gets what the market will dictate for that shaft - so that is the reality of price vs. demand.
Obviously does not matter if you truly need a 29 KW at 4 oz. My Hsunami was $475 all in - I only sprung for one when my wife kicked in half as a BD gift- otherwise no go.
The Hsunami has the best finish on any wood shaft I have ever owned - not sure what he does to it - but it is truly amazing in that respect.
The Hsunami 2.0 is a very nice looking and playing shaft - however I don’t personally see $475 value for the shaft - but he gets what the market will dictate for that shaft - so that is the reality of price vs. demand.
billiards_watch
Well-known member
Yes, I do think it'sextreme. I don't own one.
But I am supposing such a process before roasting could help hit the target weight. Boost the weight by infusing the wood before sucking the weight out by roasting.
Call me crazy.
Did you see the photo of the curly maple KW shaft SSDiver2112 built? IMO, that is a very handsome look, more so than Richard’s dark brown look. Seeing the color and graininess of that shaft was a treat to view. I couldn’t help but observe that you referred to my efforts to have a heavier version KW shaft built as “if you truly need a 29 inch KW at 4 ozs.”
With sincerity, I must respond that thinking of my search as something I need is a mischaracterization. I tried to be clear about this but perhaps there’s still ambiguity. I have a KW shaft that meets my requirements but it only fits my Scruggs cue. I wish it fit my Prewitt cue or any of my others but only my Scruggs is radial. 3.8 ozs if fine otherwise I wouldn’t have bought the Barnhart roasted maple shaft. However, it could be even better if it was a little heavier which is why I started my search for a KW shaft builder that could build a shaft like I want but I don’t need it. Wanting it is very different than needing and I’ve tried to make that clear. There is almost a 1/2 oz. weigh range (actually 0.4 ozs.) I want a KW shaft to fall within.
3.8 - 4.2 ozs is my target. Does a 3.7 oz. shaft perform satisfactorily? Sure it does and so would a 3.6 oz. KW shaft.
But it’s not what I want & a heavier shaft can be built so why should I settle for a KW shaft that isn’t what I want built?
So if I never located someone to build a KW shaft using my specs, I’m fine. I’ve played with the cue maker’s original shafts since I acquired my cues. My introduction to KW shafts started last October after purchasing a shaft from Superior Cues. I think it is a improved version of maple shafts and I just want a shaft that weighs as much as all my other maple shaft for the balance. I went to the trouble and effort to have all my cues built alike and I just “want” my cue shafts to be alike in size and weight. But I don’t need that because I’ve played pool longer than most readers. I was pleased and happy with my cues before I got my 1st KW shaft. Now that I discovered KW shafts perform better than my cue’s original maple shaft, I’d like to get a couple of more for my other cues. However, if I don’t, so be it but it sure is worth trying, IMO. And after months of trying, Iam finally getting recommendations about cue makers to contact.
Anyway, I’ve been busy contacting shaft builders and Jacoby Cues responded saying they can do it and is willing to try at no financial exposure to me. I wasn’t looking for a guarantee unless I was happy with the outcome, I didn’t have
to buy the shaft. But after discussing what I want with Jacoby Cues, I am optimistic I will get another KW shaft made.
It is not like a lighter shaft gets a F grade. I could use it and still enjoy lower deflection results. Think of it this way.
Ex., you could buy a new sports car that just was unveiled but the demand is so great there is a long wait and no choice of colors at the dealer. You choose from what arrives or drop to the bottom of the list which means not getting this year’s new model sports car. So do you settle for a color you really didn’t want & get the car or wait til you can get what you want?
Personally, I find it difficult settling for less with most things that could be avoided with a little more time and effort. But that’s a emotional cross I have to bear because it is self-inflicted and I always have the option of settling for less. I just find that hard to do. When it comes to pool cues, it seems impossible because I know what I want made could be built.
So Jacoby Cues is going to tackle this and eventually we will all get to see how close they come and again, there is a weight range for the shaft. It doesn’t have to be 4 ozs or heavier. I prefer that weight because 21% is my sweet spot. Nonetheless, if I never got another KW shaft, I am delighted with the one I already have. Getting a couple of more is simply what I want but I don’t need them. I just miss not switching cues like I did before which was very satisfying and also lots of fun to do.
Richard Hsu sits at the top of the totem pole for KW shaft building. However, spending over $500 for a wood shaft just
seems unwarranted but so does spending thousands of dollars for simply a pool cue. It doesn’t have to be logical or make any sense. It just has to be what you really want, can afford but it doesn’t have to be something you actually need which is merely a pool cue, not some fancy custom cue costing you serious money. Let’s see how Jacoby Cues does. I’m optimistic.
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billiards_watch
Well-known member
So now all your cues have to outfitted with LD shafts or you won't play with them.
Man that's a lot of problems. You already have one and Jacoby is going to make it. You should just have them make one each for your cues while they are at it.
Nope, I just play better with a KW shaft than orig. maple shafts. My cues have 3 pins……radial (1), 3/8x10, 3/8x11.
I have a Barnhart radial KW shaft that only fits my Scruggs cue. Jacoby offered to build a 3/8x10 and 3/8x11 KW shafts. I don’t have to pony up any money until I see how the shafts turn out and I am not obligated in any way to purchase the shafts unless they were what I wanted. Tony said might as well build both shafts at the same time rather than wait to see how the first shaft turns out. He seems very optimistic he ‘ll be able to build the shafts using my specs.
I wanted to wait until I see how the first shaft turns out but Jacoby said let’s just save time and make two shafts for you since they searched their inventory and have the heavier shaft wood required to build my shafts. They also aren’t asking for any deposit to build the shafts. It is being done on a verbal handshake basis and they seem interested too. I only have to buy the shafts if I liked how the shafts turned out. You can’t beat that offer and Jacoby is a trusted, respected name in cue making.
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I truly get the need vs. want thing- I should have used the term want not need in reference to your KW search. I would say that just about every cue related purchase that I ever made - which or the past 40 years amounts to many, many thousands of dollars, was want related and not need related. Most cues were eventually resold- I have about eight left here now - but , yes, agreed, it was virtually all WANT related- and tons of enjoyment over the years too!
You don't have a Fargo rating, but a lot of your buddies do? How does that answer how you play?