Knowledge in pool (long post)

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Having played yet another "potting idiot savant" and BARELY scraping out a win, I wonder how much of a role knowledge really plays in pool? You see these guys over and over, doing everything wrong, bumping into balls when unnecessary, going into clusters too hard, creating new clusters, playing the wrong position (on the wrong side of the ball) as a rule rather than the exception etc. Not to mention safety play, kicking at warp speed and coming up safe over and over, accidentally leaving you safe because they don't care to properly play position etc. Somehow these people can actually string racks sometimes and a couple of them can actually do it quite often, how, I do not know?

Once these guys get to certain skill level, you can't really beat them with knowledge in an ordinary length matchup(with the possible exception of one pocket). In a short race in 9 ball, 8 ball, or even a game of straight pool it often comes down to luck if you can defeat them or not. Basically you need to run a lot of racks from nowhere. I don't care how good you are, that takes at least a little luck sometimes.

Lets take a straightpool matchup as an example: I make the opening break, leaving him near frozen to the rail with a razor thin cut, that he makes and blasts into the pack, the cueball jumping up. Then he proceeds to make the most amazing 50+ ball run I've ever seen, mindlessly blasting into clusters, getting stuck, then kicking/banking/jumping out of trouble, over and over. Then he misses and leaves me frozen to a ball with a fairly open table, no shots to shoot, not even a decent kick. So I play a safe, doubling him up on most of the balls, with the exception of a long bank, which he makes. It would possibly have been better to take 3 fouls, but the table was not breaking well, and I remembered the first break... He won the game to 100 points in nothing flat. I came to the table 4 times with practically nothing whatsoever to shoot at, him freezing me accidentally to a ball twice. I shot an extremely difficult shot, and managed to run a few from there but that was it. I wasn't angry about it as much as I was genuinly impressed with the insane things he was pulling off.

It's just not practical to race to 15 in rotation pool or play to 500 points in straightpool to have the knowledge/luck/psycho potting factors even out a bit. Still the potting talent will triumph after all. I'd take that guy over any bookworm in a matchup.

I guess there is a reason why the older guys in the US switch to one pocket when they start losing their vision a bit. Over here they switch to 3-cushion, which has a lot of knowledge in it (nobody plays one pocket). I guess it's a smart move for people like me, too, who don't have the extreme talent needed for those insane pots. I mean it takes a lot of talent to play well in 3-cushion, but at least you can level the playing field a little bit with some knowledge, and you get an advantage from having an actual stroke. In pool, all you need is a straight "poke" and know how to get to center table. If your poke is straight enough, that's pretty much all you need to win a LOT of matches.

I see these books for sale about "esoteric" concepts in pool, and I wonder if I really get what the author is trying to say or not? Or more importantly, even if I did, would it actually help me win? "Sayings" in pool are not as clear as some claim. Even extremely simple things like "following through" can frequently be misunderstood. by some people. At least I have had discussions over exactly what that means with other players, and nobody seems to agree fully.

I have bought some books on pool (and tons of videos), and possibly the only book that really helped me was "Banking with the Beard". (Diagrams, and accurate speed/spin definitions, that still needed tweaking). All in all, though I'd say that in pool, (potting)talent is what matters. And if you haven't got talent, the thing that is most likely to help you is one on one coaching, with a guy physically moving you about, pointing and saying "Do this!", then demonstrating it himself if you still don't get it.

rant over
 
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Interesting.


So it does not make you question what you think you know?

Wrong position? According to you? Or some book? Some "standard"?

Warp speed kick to safe? Sounds like Bata. :thumbup:

"extreme talent needed for those insane pots" ? Yup, that's Bata.



I am a knowledge geek, a lifelong student, and I mean formally. I have built my profession around it. But pool? Sure I try to know a lot, but I don't think it's what wins. Making balls wins. Sometimes convention says I should do something a certain way and I do it another. Why? Because I can. And it disturbs a knowledgeable opponent. Yeah, I'm that guy.


Are you sure sometimes you aren't just getting skillfully played? :wink: Actually, I think that sums up what you said. :smile:


If it came down to knowledge or skill for pool I would pick skill any day. Just make balls. Win.

I am at the highest level of professional education. Some people come to me with a lot of knowledge and some with little. I can teach them what they don't know but I tell them up front the best thing I will do for them is train them in skills. I tell them I will make them a self-correcting learner and train them to use concepts more than knowledge. I can take a doctor weak in knowledge and train him in conceptual skills and he will be top notch, excellent, really. They can always look up what they don't know, but if they aren't skillful they won't even know what to look up.

Just my take on the matter at hand.

In pool it seems almost trivial, but I use these principles to teach medicine where lives are in the balance.

This is essentially why a PhD can't practice medicine. They may teach medical students adequately, but they literally know nothing of practice or practical application (although they often think they do).




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You described a couple of players I know

They are very good pocketers when having a clear shot but when they are left hard they take fliers at warp speed ( talking 9 bal here ) and something usually falls and they are usually left with a decent shot afterwards


It seems like on most occasions when they miss you are left so bad you can't see day light

Exasperating as hell playing guys like that.
 
You described a couple of players I know

They are very good pocketers when having a clear shot but when they are left hard they take fliers at warp speed ( talking 9 bal here ) and something usually falls and they are usually left with a decent shot afterwards


It seems like on most occasions when they miss you are left so bad you can't see day light

Exasperating as hell playing guys like that.

I generally don't take fliers at warp speed, that's not my game, I am better than that....but if I see that it bugs you I sure might. Do I think that might affect how you see your next shot? Yup, you just admitted it does. "on most occasions when they miss you are left so bad you can't see day light" You are expecting to be left with crap and your mind will have a harder time seeing a way out.

The mental game is huge.



I have been training my future son-in-law. I hook him a lot. I make wild banks a lot. I get under his skin a lot. You should see his face. LOL! I told him he needs to get over it and play the table, don't play me. He plays me, he loses almost without question. If he plays the table he has a chance.

I love it when he says "how did you miss that?" and I say "idunno, but look at the cue ball." LOL!


Don't get me wrong, sometimes I play him straight up. But then he does not get to play much. Watching is great, but he needs practice. :smile:
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I can teach them what they don't know but I tell them up front the best thing I will do for them is train them in skills. I tell them I will make them a self-correcting learner and train them to use concepts more than knowledge.

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I truly enjoy intelligent, lucid thought. Thanks Doc.

I do have a remark.

Skills are like a muscle, you must exercise them or they will atrophy and die in a giant stinking necrotic mass. The tools you use to create new skills are also perishable. ever look in your tool box at a utensil that, for the life of you, you cannot remember what its for? Well, there ya go.

Thought is not a right, its a privilege... much like bacon and spandex.

Lesh
 
I play a guy who wins often and is terrible at getting shape but he is a great shot maker. He works harder than anyone I know at getting out. Watching him run out is like watching a drunk driver go down the road. He cuts balls like a deli man slices meat. Ultimately his luck always runs out.
 
I truly enjoy intelligent, lucid thought. Thanks Doc.

I do have a remark.

Thought is not a right, its a privilege... much like bacon and spandex.

Lesh


Bacon and spandex? There is a npr thread title.;)
 
Yup, that's happened to all of us - at least I know it's happened to me for sure! Couple thoughts - when playing people like this you will Def win if two conditions are met. First, you need to have the bank roll to fade it and the heart to keep going no matter what. Second, you need to be able to keep yourself focused and play YOUR GAME and not let the nonsense you are seeing get in your head.

99, your story reminds me of something very similar that happened to me. There was his kid in he pool hall that I absolutely HATED. He was one of those guys that you were either GONNA LOVE or GONNA HATE WITH A PASSION! I disliked him because he was one of those " constantly running his mouth all day every day ". Huge BS'ER. Every other word out of his mouth was a lie. Not one that you would wonder if it was, a blatant, way over the top, not even possible type of lie and he would go 24/7. He also NEVER had any money to back anything up and I constantly called him out every chance I got.

Anyway we end up getting in a straight pool game one night when I was calling him out on his bs. I only agreed to play because his dad was staking him and his dad was a real decent guy that would bet it up from time to time and was a gentleman and didn't mind losing. So we're playing to 100 for a $100. I am stone cold STEALING. Any given day I spot this kid the free 6 and ROB HIM - EVERY TIME!

Well he proceeded to out on the most amazing show that I have ever seen. This shot show had it all. Froze to head rail cutting 89 degree balls on the bottom rail, probably 20 times blasting the rack as hard as he could possibly could hit it and making the ball right in the center of the rack EVERY TIME, jumping balls and making them, kicking 3 rails and main the shot. Not kidding, he did all of those things and more, much much more. It truly was amazing and I got to the point and told him so " I know for whatever reason tonight's you night and I have NO CHANCE tonight but I'm gonna keep going tI'll you break me because this is worth paying for to watch - and I was being completely serious. Well I wanted to keep raising the bet because we weren't playing for hardly anything. His dad kept saying no because he knew it wasn't smart gambling that way. Well I badgerred him enough to where we got to $300 hundred a game. I lost every game and bad. I kept true to my word, I had $1500 on me and ended up handing over every last Benjamin to him and his dad.

Two things, he was free stroking to the one in a lifetime level. Two, he got me so off my game Ray Charles would have robbed me. The following night I asked him to play again and he said no!!!! I'm like WTF! I had to humiliate him in front of the whole pool room just to get him up again. I beat him 100 to 20 for $100 the first game. Anyone care to guess what happens next??? Yup you guessed it, he says OK I'm done! I expected nothing less out of this guy lol! As it turns out after all that he and I ended up becoming the best of friends believe it or not. We really ended up being like brothers. Whoda thunk?

Moral of the story everyone can run into a free stroke for awhile and you just need to outlast it and not let it get to you.
 
If I'm playing a cerebral player I used to almost always hit some shots hard and "get lucky". I learned a long time ago that will make them underestimate me and make them believe they can't overcome the rolls.

The other side of that though is how good was the guy really? I played a guy in a barbox 8-ball tournament who was considered the best around. He played methodically, had a lot of knowledge and always played the right shot. I knew I had to run out and I can control what part of a cluster to hit so it's not luck when I bump them and get a shot out of it. I did this several times and won. At the end he said I got lucky because I didn't have to come out so good after bumping all those clusters...

Something I can do easily because I've practiced many, many hours he thought was luck because his mind was so closed by knowledge that he thought something a lot of people do was impossible.

Maybe the way he was bumping into things was extremely risky for you but because he can pot from anywhere the percentages are different. Playing your high percentage shots would not have been playing to his strengths.
 
If I'm playing a cerebral player I used to almost always hit some shots hard and "get lucky". I learned a long time ago that will make them underestimate me and make them believe they can't overcome the rolls.

The other side of that though is how good was the guy really? I played a guy in a barbox 8-ball tournament who was considered the best around. He played methodically, had a lot of knowledge and always played the right shot. I knew I had to run out and I can control what part of a cluster to hit so it's not luck when I bump them and get a shot out of it. I did this several times and won. At the end he said I got lucky because I didn't have to come out so good after bumping all those clusters...

Something I can do easily because I've practiced many, many hours he thought was luck because his mind was so closed by knowledge that he thought something a lot of people do was impossible.

Maybe the way he was bumping into things was extremely risky for you but because he can pot from anywhere the percentages are different. Playing your high percentage shots would not have been playing to his strengths.


I think it's key to develop a flexible game. Don't get locked in. Rigidity is as bad as random carelessness.

And a little camouflage never hurts either. :grin-square:


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Knowledge is important.

Take a top player and make him shoot every shot a B player says and I think you would be surprised at how many "shortstops" would beat him at that game.
 
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Having played yet another "potting idiot savant" and BARELY scraping out a win, I wonder how much of a role knowledge really plays in pool? You see these guys over and over, doing everything wrong, bumping into balls when unnecessary, going into clusters too hard, creating new clusters, playing the wrong position (on the wrong side of the ball) as a rule rather than the exception etc. Not to mention safety play, kicking at warp speed and coming up safe over and over, accidentally leaving you safe because they don't care to properly play position etc. Somehow these people can actually string racks sometimes and a couple of them can actually do it quite often, how, I do not know?

Some of these guys are lucky, and their luck will run out sooner or later..

On the other hand there is more than one way to skin a cat. In every sport there are "finesse" players and "power" players......I could give you hundreds of examples, in almost every sport, where the hard working, but less-skilled and less-thoughtful "power" players gets results just as good as the more-talented finesse player.

One example, compare baseball pitcher maddux who tried to hit the corners v the pitcher who just throws every pitch as hard as he can......both styles can work....
 
It is amazing sometimes how often bangers who have no idea, or cares, about where the cueball is going end up with good shape.
 
I think this is part of what makes it interesting.

Many factors combine to make each player, and each player is different.

Knowledge is indeed important, but you can't just read a book and go play pro pool.

Michael Phelps won 8 gold medals in swimming. He didn't just sit and read about swimming. He swam. Every day. For eight years. He swam on his birthday, he swam on Christmas. It doesn't hurt that he has arms like an orangutan and hands like trash can lids either. :D

Yes, knowledge is important, for sure. But pool players are made at pool tables, not in books or on the internet.


IMHO the most important knowledge in such matters is the knowledge of yourself. How you play, what your limitations are, what your strengths are, how and when to push your limits, things like that. That is the most important knowledge. Knowledge that other people produce and convey to you is second to that.

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Interesting.


So it does not make you question what you think you know?

Wrong position? According to you? Or some book? Some "standard"?

Warp speed kick to safe? Sounds like Bata. :thumbup:

"extreme talent needed for those insane pots" ? Yup, that's Bata.



I am a knowledge geek, a lifelong student, and I mean formally. I have built my profession around it. But pool? Sure I try to know a lot, but I don't think it's what wins. Making balls wins. Sometimes convention says I should do something a certain way and I do it another. Why? Because I can. And it disturbs a knowledgeable opponent. Yeah, I'm that guy.


Are you sure sometimes you aren't just getting skillfully played? :wink: Actually, I think that sums up what you said. :smile:


If it came down to knowledge or skill for pool I would pick skill any day. Just make balls. Win.

I am at the highest level of professional education. Some people come to me with a lot of knowledge and some with little. I can teach them what they don't know but I tell them up front the best thing I will do for them is train them in skills. I tell them I will make them a self-correcting learner and train them to use concepts more than knowledge. I can take a doctor weak in knowledge and train him in conceptual skills and he will be top notch, excellent, really. They can always look up what they don't know, but if they aren't skillful they won't even know what to look up.

Just my take on the matter at hand.

In pool it seems almost trivial, but I use these principles to teach medicine where lives are in the balance.

This is essentially why a PhD can't practice medicine. They may teach medical students adequately, but they literally know nothing of practice or practical application (although they often think they do).

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Conceptual is how I was basically taught physics. Specifics of formulas & numbers can be, as you say, looked up.

Pool is about pocketing balls & not missing. If one never misses the opponent never gets to shoot.

There is knowledge that helps to pocket balls & cut down on misses & also knowing how to miss when a miss is more highly likely.

Knowledge is useless if one does not know how to use that knowledge & execute.

Many place TOO much emphasis on knowledge & not enough on execution.

Without execution the knowledge is useless.

Exceptional execution can trump knowledge that is sitting in a chair every time.

Balance is usually Best.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

PS How can I get rid of my bloating gut at 62 yrs. old? Can I have a pressure release valve put in?:wink:
 
I generally don't take fliers at warp speed, that's not my game, I am better than that....but if I see that it bugs you I sure might. Do I think that might affect how you see your next shot? Yup, you just admitted it does. "on most occasions when they miss you are left so bad you can't see day light" You are expecting to be left with crap and your mind will have a harder time seeing a way out.

The mental game is huge.



I have been training my future son-in-law. I hook him a lot. I make wild banks a lot. I get under his skin a lot. You should see his face. LOL! I told him he needs to get over it and play the table, don't play me. He plays me, he loses almost without question. If he plays the table he has a chance.

I love it when he says "how did you miss that?" and I say "idunno, but look at the cue ball." LOL!


Don't get me wrong, sometimes I play him straight up. But then he does not get to play much. Watching is great, but he needs practice. :smile:
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You got it, Doc.

I can not control what you do, skilled or luck or whatever. But I can make you pay when you let me to the table.

Laughter followed by focus can overcome bad breaks, bad leaves, etc.

Being mentally tough is the best knowledge of all.

Best 2 Ya.
 
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Bangers don't make amazing 50+ ball runs. This guy may have balls but doesn't sound like a banger. It sounds as if he is a little reckless and that will get him into trouble sometime, but apparently not this time. So, you want him to not make shots he can make because he doesn't have enough knowledge yet? What kind of logic is that? I think maybe, even if just a little, you wish you had some of his gall. If you don't think you can make a shot then you will not make the shot and knowledge won't be able to save you all the time, sometimes you got to shoot your way out.

I will say that there are sh**ty rolls and relying on those rolls all the time will hurt you more than it will help you. Being on the wrong end of those rolls sucks, but that is pool. Eventually all those rolls even out, or so I'm told. You should already know that, so why complain about it?

I don't mean to make this sound so inflammatory, but, you sound kind of butt hurt and are deflecting the blame.

I just re read your post and realized that your straight pool matchup was just a made up example. All of what I said would apply to the scenario you presented if it were what really happened.
 
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I get pissed at myself sometimes - how can that ignorant douche have beaten me? Need to put the ego away, the guy that plays better on that day usually wins. Be the better player.
 
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