Laminated shafts
- Thread starter Busbee Cue
- Start date
Old Hat
bubsbug
I just wanted to let you know. The idea for the shaft blank you have made is old news. I made several of these blanks over 4 years ago. In fact I have one going out on a break cue shortly from my shop. I did not use flat laminated stock however I used rock maple and alternated the grain as you have shown in your example. Atlas sells a blank exactly as you describe called the fusion shaft. I think MHO the shafts play really good! Just wanted to let you know as with most things usually someone already thought of it
.......Dave
bubsbug
I just wanted to let you know. The idea for the shaft blank you have made is old news. I made several of these blanks over 4 years ago. In fact I have one going out on a break cue shortly from my shop. I did not use flat laminated stock however I used rock maple and alternated the grain as you have shown in your example. Atlas sells a blank exactly as you describe called the fusion shaft. I think MHO the shafts play really good! Just wanted to let you know as with most things usually someone already thought of it
.......DaveIt's always good to constantly seek impovement and I have never checked any of the laminated shafts.
I have measured deflection on thousands of plain maple shafts and kept records and the conclusions are interesting. Abpout 10% oft the shafts I measured had almost identical deflection at 6 places around the shafts. I mean the differences were so small that for all purposes they were perfect.
5% of the shafts were rejects because they had too big a differential depending on where the shaft was bent.
I received 440 shafts today and will end up tossing probably 100 of them for various reasons.
Hoppe, Mosconi. Mizerak, Wimpy and crane used plain maple. There's been a lotta hype szince then.
I have measured deflection on thousands of plain maple shafts and kept records and the conclusions are interesting. Abpout 10% oft the shafts I measured had almost identical deflection at 6 places around the shafts. I mean the differences were so small that for all purposes they were perfect.
5% of the shafts were rejects because they had too big a differential depending on where the shaft was bent.
I received 440 shafts today and will end up tossing probably 100 of them for various reasons.
Hoppe, Mosconi. Mizerak, Wimpy and crane used plain maple. There's been a lotta hype szince then.
Nothing personal against anyone's outlooks, as they are all good ones, and I build a few cues too as some here know, but I don't care what shaft you shoot with, the poster at the top of the page makes a good point. Anyone that has played alot of forced position play in their past, and then trained to play more of technical game has felt this issue at one time or another. The last 5-10 years My game has changed from the ultimate shotmaker to a combination of slow position play, to forced play when a break out was needed or hard shape was needed to be gained. otherwise I don't always wait for the other guy to break me out, but I play no rail position when I can, and sometimes make My own shape to finish a rack out. The combination has been very effective for me most of time, altough inconstenticies have have kept me at a moderate level of play overall. Still I have well over a 75% ratio in league type play against equal high ranks mostly. I have lost a good percentage of my shotmaking capability to the more consistent style of play, but overall I'm still just letting it all hang out. To shorten things up, It's not the cue, and It's not the shaft most of the time, because for me it makes no difference what cue or shaft is in My hand for the most part, and more in My mind, as where My level of play will be in any given night. I'm even dead on, medium, or slightly off on key shots, to just not having My mind in the game and letting the table beat me. There's 2 issues that kill the easy runs, one is over or under stroking the shot, the other Is hitting the ball off center of where You think you are. Sometimes I can slow play, looking straight through the ball, and still watch the roll offs take place in the oposite direction when I thought I hit dead center. This is slow play now. I'm actually better off sometimes when I hit the ball slightly harder and use english to make the pocket, even when I don't need to, then to try and hit center ball & straight angle. I do not see this as a radial issue, because those come up more often under forced shots from My experiences, and usually that's harder shooting then the shot requires to pocket the ball anyhow.
With that said- radial consistentcy is definatly a good thing, and one less issue to B&W about in Your mind, but when It really comes down, either you have It or You don't in any given night, and If Your on that night, It really does'nt matter what's in your hand as long as it feels good.
My only point here is that anything that limits inconsistencies is a good thing, but By far is It a nessesity. If someone wants to limit deflection, I would recomend they learn to play with a tighter bridge, but still stroke through it smoothly, and make sure you don't choke the bridge up too far away from the tip, as that will only increase deflection issues regardless of what shaft is used. Just my opinion, but anything that betters the odds is a good thing just the same.
Greg
With that said- radial consistentcy is definatly a good thing, and one less issue to B&W about in Your mind, but when It really comes down, either you have It or You don't in any given night, and If Your on that night, It really does'nt matter what's in your hand as long as it feels good.
My only point here is that anything that limits inconsistencies is a good thing, but By far is It a nessesity. If someone wants to limit deflection, I would recomend they learn to play with a tighter bridge, but still stroke through it smoothly, and make sure you don't choke the bridge up too far away from the tip, as that will only increase deflection issues regardless of what shaft is used. Just my opinion, but anything that betters the odds is a good thing just the same.
Greg
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Radial flat lam?
Probably a practical and honest description. The design of bubsburg's shaft has been done before. I have seen some shaft suppliers offer very similar construction. No, I never bought any to try. I still prefer a nicely seasoned hard maple non-laminated shaft for my cues, but that can someday change! Call me old fashioned? Each piece is flat-laminated, but, that does not mean it is not a radial. Joey's label maybe fits it best.
Just the fact that Bubsburg is experimenting and trying to be innovative should be commended by our ranks not ridiculed. Though sometimes lower key approachs to describing the products of our craft may create more positive comments Bubsburg? Let your customers praise blow the horn for you! I wish you great success with your new shafts Bubsburg. Maybe we will all be clamoring for them in the future? Best of Luck!
Probably a practical and honest description. The design of bubsburg's shaft has been done before. I have seen some shaft suppliers offer very similar construction. No, I never bought any to try. I still prefer a nicely seasoned hard maple non-laminated shaft for my cues, but that can someday change! Call me old fashioned? Each piece is flat-laminated, but, that does not mean it is not a radial. Joey's label maybe fits it best.
Just the fact that Bubsburg is experimenting and trying to be innovative should be commended by our ranks not ridiculed. Though sometimes lower key approachs to describing the products of our craft may create more positive comments Bubsburg? Let your customers praise blow the horn for you! I wish you great success with your new shafts Bubsburg. Maybe we will all be clamoring for them in the future? Best of Luck!
nbll01 said:bubsbug
I just wanted to let you know. The idea for the shaft blank you have made is old news. I made several of these blanks over 4 years ago. In fact I have one going out on a break cue shortly from my shop. I did not use flat laminated stock however I used rock maple and alternated the grain as you have shown in your example. Atlas sells a blank exactly as you describe called the fusion shaft. I think MHO the shafts play really good! Just wanted to let you know as with most things usually someone already thought of it
Yes I know. The guy who makes the fusion cue showed me how to do it and then sold me all of his equiptment to make the shafts. I use better wood then he did, but I also pay more. All im saying is that it is a very good cue. It must be because everyone is caring it. Best of all I sell a complete laminate shaft for less than $100
pdcue, perhaps you need some re-direction. It doesnt really matter how you get from "A" to "Z" its the finnished products that matters. Lets see if I can simplify it for you. If a lady bakes a cake and make the iceing first, is it still a cake? If I some how put wheels on my boat, would it still be a boat. WHY IS A RADIAL ARM SAW CALLED, A RADIAL ARM SAW!. Well, as the definition defines it, it is a line drawn out from the center,much like spokes on a wheel, which means radial. Question is how many lines do you need, 1,2,100! Also, how many different ways are there to produce something radial. I used to make fly fishing rods with 8 triangular pie shaped radial peices, much the same way that preditor does, but I also had special fixtures and planers that gave me the exact same shape needed in order to produce a tight perfect jointing surface. Now, were there other ways to produce the fishing rod, sure but its the end product that is the victory field. Perhaps you would not have known that I glue 4 peices of wood together and then turn round had I not told you so.pdcue said:
bubs, Youre a pain in the tail sometimes but I'm actually startin to like you. Especially now that youre beginning to stand up for yourself more.
Keep in mind, youre playing to a tough audience here. Someone, somewhere, is always going to disagree with you, no matter how good (or bad) your idea might be.
For what it's worth, only reason I havent ask to try some of your shafts is I don't care for dealing with people that claim their product is the best thing since "puddin in a pie". Youre startin to remind me of someone else here
I think the design idea is sound, and will probably work as well as some of the other shafts available. As for eliminating all the inconsistencies (?), if that's what a player wants, they should ask NASA to build a shaft for them. Might cost a little more than expected though!
Best of luck.
Keep in mind, youre playing to a tough audience here. Someone, somewhere, is always going to disagree with you, no matter how good (or bad) your idea might be.
For what it's worth, only reason I havent ask to try some of your shafts is I don't care for dealing with people that claim their product is the best thing since "puddin in a pie". Youre startin to remind me of someone else here
I think the design idea is sound, and will probably work as well as some of the other shafts available. As for eliminating all the inconsistencies (?), if that's what a player wants, they should ask NASA to build a shaft for them. Might cost a little more than expected though!
Best of luck.
Your term might be correct but the indurstry and the players themselves almost unanimously are under the belief that when someone says a shaft is radially laminated, each piece is a pie-shaped maple piece.bubsbug said:
Not plies glue together and then cut to pie shape.
This could be argued til the cows come home but if he wants to call it a zerken-laminated-turded-radial, that would be his call. Maybe if he markets it properly it will be recognized at some point.
If a Pred were to be disected, and the growth rings to be considered laminates, would you not have essentially the same thing?
If a Pred were to be disected, and the growth rings to be considered laminates, would you not have essentially the same thing?
JoeyInCali said:
Laminated Radial shaft or radially laminated shaft is an accurate description IMO.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Flat lam radials?cueman said:
I like the term radially lamininated Myself. I should say I feel the fusion idea has merit, and I remember thinking what a neat idea the design was when I first saw them at atlas.I have'nt used them, but have some others, and have no issues installing one when requested, but as far as on My personal shafts I play about the same eitherway, laminated or not. I want to be clear that I'm not critisizing the design, but rather feel that alot of inconsistentcy is more about the person then the shaft in some cases. I do aggree however that whatever helps someone is worth exploring regardless of the root issue.
Good luck with the endevor Bubsbug, I'm sure It will be a good one for You, as the market is large for laminated shafts. Maybe one day I'll even give them a try to see If it helps My game.
BTW just curious, but are You running that taper machine off a battery? Why not just use a 12v power supply?
Greg
Good luck with the endevor Bubsbug, I'm sure It will be a good one for You, as the market is large for laminated shafts. Maybe one day I'll even give them a try to see If it helps My game.
BTW just curious, but are You running that taper machine off a battery? Why not just use a 12v power supply?
Greg
Cue Crazy said:I like the term radially lamininated Myself. I should say I feel the fusion idea has merit, and I remember thinking what a neat idea the design was when I first saw them at atlas.I have'nt used them, but have some others, and have no issues installing one when requested, but as far as on My personal shafts I play about the same eitherway, laminated or not. I want to be clear that I'm not critisizing the design, but rather feel that alot of inconsistentcy is more about the person then the shaft in some cases. I do aggree however that whatever helps someone is worth exploring regardless of the root issue.
Good luck with the endevor Bubsbug, I'm sure It will be a good one for You, as the market is large for laminated shafts. Maybe one day I'll even give them a try to see If it helps My game.
BTW just curious, but are You running that taper machine off a battery? Why not just use a 12v power supply?
Greg
Yep! 12 volt battery fron Sears, I think. I havn't change a thing on the machine since purchasing it. It has 2-windshield motors. One spinning the shaft blank, and another that operates movement up and down the table saw. it has forward/reverse switch and start/stop with several drive speeds. each motor cost $15. I have plans to switch out to DC current. I also want to change the taper bar as I dont really care for the current taper but for now I gota go with what I have.
Thanks
Bubsbug
shotmaker said:At $50 an oversized dowel. They must be really super.i saw your post on how do I make a ferrule. Makes me wonder about the workmanship on these dowels
Thanks for the info if that is accurate. I was wondering in case it was economical for me to pick up a few.
Bug, if that is correct, is that oversized with a taper? or straight dowels?
How much do you have in each blank, counting glue and wood? It seems there was a post in the somewhat distant past about people selling things at a certain profit margin that you disagreed with. I believe you even posted what the raw materials in one of those products should cost, and were quite adamant about your judgements on that. Would you care to share the material cost in each of your blanks and the profit margin?
Kelly
Bugs, No matter what people on here think or say i personally likw your idea. I wouldnt mind trying one of your shafts just to see how it compares to the other "laminated" shafts that i've used. I work at Carolina Custom Cues and see shafts day in and day out. Let me know how much one of your blanks cost. I might just be interested in giving it a try.