Latest News from Deno re:Qualifiers

[JAM]

Well now, that sure is taking the safe side, isn't it.

Usually hindsight is pretty accurate. But then there are people who want to rewrite history.

Well-written post, JJinFLA. I am anxious to see how the IPT qualifiers unfold down the road for the upcoming and first official tournament, to include the current 150 members and 50 winners of IPT qualifiers, come this July. In reality, though, I'm thinking that, as an example, if C.J. Wiley holds an IPT qualifier and only two players show up, he proceeds to win it, is he in like Flynn and can enter the Las Vegas IPT tournament?

I went to the KOTH (as a spectator) and was trully amazed at what it must have cost to produce the show...It appears that the IPT has put out a lot of money so far. I wonder how deep in the red they are? And what is their plan to get in the black? Are they depending on TV contracts? Or is KT just someone with too much money that he want to throw away?

I hope with all my being that the IPT moves forward full steam ahead. I do wonder, though, how many actual pool players there are in the world, not only the 300-plus in the States, that will deem themselves competent enough to jump in the frey, i.e., paying a $1,000 entry fee to take a shot at competing in a multi-million-dollar purse. I'm thinking in the year 2006, today, there may be only 1,500 aspiring IPT players, ones who think they can get there, worldwide. What do you think?

And I really don't buy the reason people didn't apply is because they didn't know about it. Pool players know everything. Just ask them.

It's true, though, JJinFLA, that there do exist some pool players who may have been worthy for IPT consideration that have NEVER touched a computer and have no way of communicating via e-mail, the communication of choice by the IPT at its genesis. Spanish Mike Lebron is one that I know of, and Ronnie Allen is another. When I see the list of original IPT players, Ronnie Allen's name is a glaring omission. After all, he is very well-known legendary one-pocket phenom who's paid his dues, much like some of his peers who did get chosen to be IPT members, IMHO. Just throwing out those two names as examples of those who did experience a lack of computer skills. One got in, and the other didn't.

Spanish Mike did hear about the IPT by word of mouth, and at this past U.S. Open, he managed to send in his application before the IPT due date of September 30th. Otherwise, he too would not be on the list of 150 players.

I noticed that Charlie Williams was right there to sign up. But I wonder what he was telling his members in the UPA at the time.

I'd sure like to think that it was Johnny Archer representing the players as a whole who consulted with the IPT. The UPA organization is well-represented on the IPT player roster.

I am not financially set like Jay is. I am down to my last half million. Almost destitute. So when gas gets to $3.00 a gallon I will stop traveling to play or watch pool.

Being a tournament soldier has always been expensive. The IPT's long 9-day events, along with the 13-hour daily schedule, will be tough. Only the strong survive, I guess, physically and financially.

JAM

 

[jay helfert]

Well now, that sure is taking the safe side, isn't it.

Usually hindsight is pretty accurate. But then there are people who want to rewrite history.

I went to the KOTH (as a spectator) and was trully amazed at what it must have cost to produce the show. However, most of the other spectators were other pros from the 150 and their family, and people in the trade with items for sale. Cues, Cases, tables, etc. The general public was not there. And that is the problem, the general public does not care about watching pool.

It appears that the IPT has put out a lot of money so far. I wonder how deep in the red they are? And what is their plan to get in the black? Are they depending on TV contracts? Or is KT just someone with too much money that he want to throw away?

Two guys had an idea that they could become millionaires if they could get chumps to send them a $20 membership fee and $7 a week for life. They offered a free trip to Vegas as the reward and the money started rolling in. And still does. It is called the APA. And no one complains about that. People love it and keep sending them the money. No one is forced to join the APA. They join because they want to. They want to go to Vegas.

It is the same thing with the IPT. No one is forced to try and qualify. So why are people lining up with $2,000 to qualify? Could it be that at first they listened to all the skeptics and didn't bother to send in their application and now they realize that the IPT might be a pretty good deal after all?

And I really don't buy the reason people didn't apply is because they didn't know about it. Pool players know everything. Just ask them.

I noticed that Charlie Williams was right there to sign up. But I wonder what he was telling his members in the UPA at the time.

I look at the IPT website and it is a class act. Then I look at the KBP website and it is two months behind. And I can't even get my membership card from them. Yet, they had no problem taking my money back in January.

I am not financially set like Jay is. I am down to my last half million. Almost destitute. So when gas gets to $3.00 a gallon I will stop traveling to play or watch pool.

Jake

Jake,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have my reasons for not wanting to say too much right now. I have an ongoing situation with the IPT I would like to see resolved first.

I think you are out of line to rip the APA. Obviously, hundreds of thousands of people think it is money well spent. That's a pretty stong statement right there. I'm sorry, but no one could scam that many people for so long without some perceived value.

I don't want to rewrite history. Just to write about it while it's taking place.
Like right now.

 

[ScottW]

As far as the APA folks getting rich...

Weekly match dues, as far as I know, are $5/head, not $7 - as far as the minimum mandated amount. Anything over $5 goes elsewhere, as far as I can tell - either to the venue (to cover table time) or to the league operator (either right into his/her pocket, or into a fund for payouts, or a mix).

Here's how things work in the area I play in:
Our weekly match dues are $5/head, or $6/head, depending on where we play. (My home location collects $5 per team at the start of match play, to cover the table time, as they take the doors off the tables - no dropping quarters).

At the end of the session, after playoffs, the winning team gets $100 back. Yippee.

After each session's playoffs, there's a triannual tournament, where the top teams in the various divisions that our LO runs come together for a single-elim team tournament over two days. Usually there's about 20-30 teams. Total payouts for this tournament are $3k (two $1k, two $500).

Every summer, a month or so before nationals, we have a regional tournament, where the top eight teams from each of the three triannual tournaments (24 teams total) compete for four spots in nationals. Payouts for this tournament are pretty good - I forget exactly how much, but they exceed the triannual tournament payouts appropriately. The LO also covers a portion of the team's travel/lodging expenses for Vegas, should they choose to go (if they don't go, they don't get it).

I have no idea how much of each $20 yearly fee the league operator keeps, nor do I know how much of each match play fee he keeps. But I do know that the local operator has to bring in enough to a) cover all those payouts, Vegas stipends, etc., b) cover operating expenses, and c) pay himself enough to live on.

And yes, if people didn't enjoy what they were doing, they wouldn't continue to pay for it. It's not a scam if your customer values what you're selling to them.

 

[jjinfla]

Thanks Jam. 1500 pros out there. I don't know but there sure do seem like an awful lot now. And we would never have heard of half of them if it wasn't for the IPT. So that alone makes the IPT a success.

APA a scam?

I had to go back and reread my post and I was right. Nowhere did I say the APA is a scam. See how people just see what they want to believe. Perhaps their subconscious is telling them that the APA is a scam and it comes out in their writing. But I sure don't. I personally think the APA is a great business venture by Bell and Hilliard. My compliments go out to them. It must be great to have a 1/4 million people sending them money every week. Even if it is only a dollar.

But the APA is really a great business model. It hooks the players with a prize. Is a game that is fun and challanging. And traps them into perpetual membership by having the local prizes doled out in the next session. Let them keep winning a little so they keep coming back for more. Just like the carney games at old Riverview Park in Chicago.

The only think I don't like about the APA is that I didn't think of it and start it.

But I sure can't figure out the business model of the IPT. I suggest that the players who are in it don't look a gift horse in the mouth - just enjoy the ride. I know, I am enjoying it so far. Where else can you have so much fun?

Jake

 

[ScottW]

You're right, you didn't technically say "scam" - my mistake. My last sentence in my last paragraph was based on your referring to all APA players as "chumps" - not a huge difference, IMHO.

Thanks for calling me a chump, btw.

 

[JAM]

Thanks Jam. 1500 pros out there. I don't know but there sure do seem like an awful lot now. And we would never have heard of half of them if it wasn't for the IPT. So that alone makes the IPT a success.

I'm kind of guessing at the 1,500 number for prospective IPT players worldwide. Hypothetically speaking, though, if all 1,500 players decided to invest a $1,000 entry fee three times annually to take a shot at winning maybe 1-, 2-, or $3 million purses, that isn't a huge income revenue for the IPT, IMHO.

But if the sport gains in popularity due to a good marketing plan, one which brings in new monies, not from those within, then Kevin Trudeau's vision will become a reality.

The multiple qualifiers before each tournament is mind-boggling to me. Deno Andrews is going to be one rambling man!

The bonuses offered at the recent IPT qualifiers, i.e., $500 for each 8 on the break, $5,000 for a running 6-pack, must have been appreciated by the competitors. At least it gave some unfortunate ones who didn't win their tour card an opportunity to pocket a little dough after their investment of the entry fee.

JAM

 

[Timberly]

And I really don't buy the reason people didn't apply is because they didn't know about it. Pool players know everything. Just ask them.

I bet if KT said it you would believe it.

Here's why I know it to be true and you don't.... I know a lot of the players. Some of them more than 15 yrs. Who do you know, how many do you know, how long have you known them, what do you know about them other than what you read on here?

The one thing that people on here can accuse me of is being brutally honest. Do you think I just made up the fact that the majority of hard core pool players that play pool for a living don't have a computer? Think about it Jake, why would they need one? It doesn't help their game. Sheesh, half of them don't really even have a home, let alone a computer and a monthly internet bill.

Maybe since JAM reiterated what I said, you'll believe it. I had guys calling me right before the open that had just heard about it from other players while at the World Summit in NYC. They wanted to know about it and how to apply. I personally helped some of them apply. But you're right, I'm lying and just making this stuff up.

 

[jjinfla]

You're right, you didn't technically say "scam" - my mistake. My last sentence in my last paragraph was based on your referring to all APA players as "chumps" - not a huge difference, IMHO.

Thanks for calling me a chump, btw.

Oh darn, I'm going to have to fire my secretary.

That was a typo. It should have read "champs".

So sorry.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

Timberly,

I was starting to believe what you were saying and that I was the one who was all wrong but then at the end you admitted that you were lying and made it all up. So I guess I will have to believe you when you say that because if I don't then I would have to call you a liar and I sure would not want to do that.

All kidding aside. I was speaking with tongue in cheek for a lot of the BS that I spouted. Of course I know that a lot of pool players don't have computers, or pots to pee in for that matter. All they have is their stick when it out of the pawn shop.

But the players who were not made aware of the IPT can thank their so called friends who failed to inform them about it. I am sure that most of the players who did apply kept quiet about it until they were notified that they were selected. Then when they spoke with their buddies they would say something like you didn't apply? Why not? I was sure you knew about it or I would have told you about it. Yeah right.

Ha Ha. That is life in the great world of pool. cut throat. screw your partner. Trust no one. always watch your back and find the back door first. Carry a gun.

Hopefully, KT will make a change in the old ways.

I think he has quite a good selection of players to start with. Both in their playing ability and their respect for the game and other people. And it appears that all the players selected want to put their best foot forward. I believe that they were selected on their skill plus what they can bring to the IPT in promoting the proper image.

Anyway, it will be a tough grind for many of them. Especially the old timers. As well as they play, can they stand up for 10 hours of play a day for 5 days? And old timers is not a slam. To me it is just anyone over 50.

Jake

 

[Banker Burt]

Our sport's future

1. I sincerely mean this statement - Good luck IPT, all IPT card holders, KT, DA and I must mention MS because he is making out like a bandit.

2. I sincerely mean this statement - I wish even more luck to all other pool promoters, organizations and most importantly all quality players that are not on the IPT.

For all the reasons that have been discussed about the pros and cons of the IPT, and what this may (or may not) mean for the rest of our sport, I am a true to the bone pool player that loves to play.

If I were to begin writing a book about this era of our sport it would be based on this premise -

Chapter One - Billiards 2006
"Billiard players needed respect, and all of the pool world felt that money and exposure would accomplish this goal. A Mr. Trudeau came along and was a great success promoting the sport".

Chapter 11 - Billiards 2016
"An aging pool player tells their story about beating all the champions and was respected for their game long before 2006. The pool player goes on to say how unfortunate it was that there was not enough funds to qualify for the IPT, and how sad it was when not selected."

Then with a weakish laugh the player says, "Ah heck, I guess this hotel room ain't so bad. At least there's a pool hall down the street."

 

[TheOne]

I was speaking with tongue in cheek for a lot of the BS that I spouted.
Jake

Are you specifically referring to Timberlys post or was this a blanket admission?

 

[JAM]

...I had guys calling me right before the open that had just heard about it from other players while at the World Summit in NYC. They wanted to know about it and how to apply. I personally helped some of them apply....

Basically, there were only 150 spots, and from what I have ascertained, the response was overwhelming, several thousand applicants e-mailing their applications, hoping to get selected. I must admit, there are some names on the list that I had not heard of, but I am not familiar with the international pool scene.

Spanish Mike Lebron would not have gotten in if I had not personally e-mailed his application in at the U.S. Open mid-September last year, with the deadline for applications being September 30th. Spanish Mike, a veteran to the game and an older gentleman, does not know how to use a computer at all. So I sat him down at the complimentary computer at the Holiday Inn lobby and transcribed his responses to the questions, and I'm a pretty good transcriptionist, capable of forming an EXCELLENT resumé. Of course, it did help that Mike Lebron has quite a nice pool portfolio, and his memory is intact. Better than mine, sad to say!

Ronnie Wiseman, by his own admission, didn't get his application in before September 30th. He did send his in after the fact, but it was too late. He is a very active member of the American tournament trail, much more active than some of the names on that list, IMHO.

Then there are the players who didn't think about the long-term consequences of not attending the MANDATORY players meeting in Orlando this past December. After winning $70,000-plus at the Skins Billiards Championship, Santos was long overdue for a visit back to the Republic of the Philippines to see his family, but he lost his IPT membership because of it and now has to qualify, poor fellow.

Ronnie Allen definitely gets around, hanging out in California and Las Vegas. He, like Mike Lebron, has no computer skills. For whatever reason, he did not submit an application. Look at the player list of the IPT now and you will see MANY of Ronnie Allen's peers, some of whom pale in comparison to the American one-pocket legend and road agent.

In these times when the technology is advancing faster than I can keep up with, it is now a necessity to be able to do things electronically. I think Allen Hopkins told me that he isn't comfortable on a computer, but luckily he is surrounded by those who are, and they keep him abreast of what's happening on the pool scene.

I get a little sick of the high-tech world's curve balls, pushing buttons on a phone endlessly, hoping to get a human being on the line; not being able to pump my gas because I can't figure out how to work the pump; and the worst of the worst, CELL PHONES. I can't stand 'em, but I've got one. And how people type out text messages with precision, error-free, on those dwarf-sized keyboards is a skill I'll never accomplish. I would have never thunk I'd see people walking around airports talking to themselves, shopping centers, and the like, wearing that little earpiece. I've got four phone numbers to my name, and I use my cell phone the least. Sometimes it's nice to be unavailable. [My Andy Rooney rant! ]

It's my understanding that you have to pay the IPT entry fees in advance of each event; thus, needing a credit card for the electronic payment. In order to get through the application process, a player's only option must be to have had access to a computer. Today, the form of communication by the IPT is e-mail and press releases, again, an electronic means necessitating access to a computer, though recently I did get a voice message on my cell phone from Gerda informing Keith of an upcoming IPT happening. I didn't get it until 3 or 4 days later because of the disdain I have for my cell phone, most times turned off.

By now, I don't think there's a pool player alive anywhere in the world who hasn't heard of the IPT, and if they're interested in being a part of it, they must step up to the electronic age. It's now become the norm in today's society.

JAM

 

[TheOne]

I keep listening to the same things (btw not you JAM), "he didn't submit an application", "he was late", "he didn't get through the qualifiers so he's not good enough" - BULL S***

The fact is it was the system that was at flawed, not the players. Great players like Tony Crosby and Danny H etc DID APPLY on time and where rejected in favor of much less skilled players. There was simply an application window, quality of application and or the time it was submitted should have had no effect. If you are going to use a system based on selection then the BEST PLAYERS should have been selected. Saying the likes of Wu, Foldes, or Engert aren't good enough because they didn't get through the qualifiers is insane. The IPT has made a pretty simple process of selecting 150 of the best players in the world, long, drawn out, and to be honest a complete farce. Of course you would always get a few players wrong but the IPT probably got about 50% wrong which is why they are rightly getting criticised. I can understand some of the reasons why they may have messed up with the original selection but they have compounded this by punishing the players that missed out, a real own goal.

I REALLY hope the IPT succeeds but the sooner they stop using the unfortunate ones to fund the tour the better it will be for all.

 

[JAM]

I keep listening to the same things (btw not you JAM)...

LOL!

I REALLY hope the IPT succeeds but the sooner they stop using the unfortunate ones to fund the tour the better it will be for all.

Personally, I think, as with any newly founded organization, there will be some growing pains. The IPT and/or Kevin Trudeau's vision is a brand-new endeavor. Never has there been this kind of monies on the table.

I keep coming back to the hypothetical lot of 1,500 prospective IPT players worldwide. I do not think the qualifier fees is enough to keep the tour running. It is my understanding that it will be the licensing of IPT's products and media interest being the main revenue stream.

I'm still wondering how on earth 50 qualifiers are going to happen before July when the first official IPT tournament will occur.

And, TheOne, I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd like to see a female shooting the shot in your avatar, with the male being on his knees at the table.

JAM

 

[APA7]

I predict Bernie Friend will win it

Brian

 

[TheOne]

Personally, I think, as with any newly founded organization, there will be some growing pains. The IPT and/or Kevin Trudeau's vision is a brand-new endeavor. Never has there been this kind of monies on the table.

I keep coming back to the hypothetical lot of 1,500 prospective IPT players worldwide. I do not think the qualifier fees is enough to keep the tour running. It is my understanding that it will be the licensing of IPT's products and media interest being the main revenue stream.

I'm still wondering how on earth 50 qualifiers are going to happen before July when the first official IPT tournament will occur.

And, TheOne, I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd like to see a female shooting the shot in your avatar, with the male being on his knees at the table.

JAM

I agree JAM, I really hope that the IPT changes its ways and funds itself from other revenue streams. Sadly this doesn't seem to be the case given their plans to hold 200 qualifiers at $1000+ a pop?

Its been calculated before but the IPT can make about $5m a year from qualifiers, let me say that again, $5 MILLION DOLLARS from POOL PLAYERS. We keep hearing that KT is a rich man, he's already made a profit from the IPT, he's going to sell it to CNN, the BBC, ESPN, he's got 1000's of hours of footage to sell, hes branding cloth, balls, merchandise, there simply is no reason if all this is true to punish the players that for whatever reason didn't get selected.

 

[Bill O]

I agree JAM, I really hope that the IPT changes its ways and funds itself from other revenue streams. Sadly this doesn't seem to be the case given their plans to hold 200 qualifiers at $1000+ a pop?

Its been calculated before but the IPT can make about $5m a year from qualifiers, let me say that again, $5 MILLION DOLLARS from POOL PLAYERS. We keep hearing that KT is a rich man, he's already made a profit from the IPT, he's going to sell it to CNN, the BBC, ESPN, he's got 1000's of hours of footage to sell, hes branding cloth, balls, merchandise, there simply is no reason if all this is true to punish the players that for whatever reason didn't get selected.

A couple of things to consider are, how much does it cost to arrange and produce these events, back office salary and staff, travel, lodging expenses, and what's wrong with making a profit? Do any of the promoters of tours do it without making any income?
Another thing, and I'm not being sarcastic or critical , I would like to know how players who didn't make the tour, by either not being selected or not qualifying, are being punished?

 

[TheOne]

A couple of things to consider are, how much does it cost to arrange and produce these events, back office salary and staff, travel, lodging expenses, and what's wrong with making a profit? Do any of the promoters of tours do it without making any income?
Another thing, and I'm not being sarcastic or critical , I would like to know how players who didn't make the tour, by either not being selected or not qualifying, are being punished?

Nothing wrong with making a profit, but as I stated above, wouldn't it be better to make it from merchandise, TV Sales, advertising, DVD Sales, not to mention his own Natural Cures marketing budget!

A matter of opinion of course but charging 10k+ significant expenses to qualify and then charge (what we are led to believe) a further 1k to qualify for the two single "open" events IMO is punishing the players that where not selected. The majority of pool players are not rich people, many have little choice but to try and qualify for the IPT if they want to continue to be full time professional pool players. In addition a share of the qualifying entry fees goes to the players that where hand selected and paid nothing! There simply is no need for this if the tour really is "already profitable" as has been claimed by a certain mr KT!

 

[Bill O]

There simply is no need for this if the tour really is "already profitable" as has been claimed by a certain mr KT![/QUOTE]

Kevin trudeau is a snake oil salesman, and I don't believe anything he says.

As for your point of view, I understand what you're saying, don't agree, but that's what makes the world go round.

 

[rackmsuckr]

There has been much criticism in the selection process, but I feel it had to start somewhere. When the entry fee was $899 for a lifetime membership, there were people like me who signed up (for my husband) who believed this was the start of something big and was willing to put up the cash on little more than promises, but with the dream that those promises of real money, real rules, etc., would come true. I believe that KT rewarded those that believed in him and his dream, or the early responders.

I know that KT's original plans have changed or morphed several times, as do all new ventures. They adapt to feedback and necessity.

Originally, I believe his vision was to fill the ranks of his 150 players with 10% women. Even though he didn't start from the top and work his way down in the WPBA, the 3 women that I can think of that are not currently in the WPBA, still have solid amateur credentials. The reason he could not get all the top WPBA pros was because the WPBA was not letting them out of their contracts. KT was not going to pay sanctioning fees to anyone! Even at the KOH tourney, I was told by a top WPBA pro that they were negotiating as we spoke, regarding the WPBA pros that were already selected.

I got in because of my enthusiasm, my 33 years of playing (more than a lot of players have been alive, lol), and my extraordinarily good timing. I also believe that because I have contributed to the sport by promoting, starting a tour, directing tournaments, publishing articles, teaching and being an ambassador for pool helped. KT may have also liked the husband-wife angle for TV.

Will I get blasted out of the water in the IPT? Probably, but so will almost all of the other women. Will we win a few matches? Possibly, and those will be what I am looking forward to. To put it on the line and test with the best.

From reading posts over the last months, I have 'survivor's guilt', where I feel that I should have given my spot up long ago. Based on skill alongside the men, I probably should have, but my spot may still have gone to someone like Ryan Keller - a local 6 in the APA. I did everything right and am being punished by the pundits for it. Ryan for that matter may also have applied when the fee was $899.

I talked to Dave Hemmah about this..someone that, like my husband, has scrambled all their lives to make a living playing pool at a high level. He said don't sweat what others were saying and just go out and do what I can do and take the memories and experience with me. And that is just what I am going to do. I do have a big heart and wish all players who wanted to participate could. I feel so badly for those just missing out, like Foldes, and Dave and Tang....and Wu.

As far as Wu, I heard at the time that his Asian governing pool body would not allow their players to play in the IPT, which necessitated his having to qualify through the IPT qualifying process. There is no doubt in my mind that he (and 49 other highly talented players) will eventually get in, and deservedly so.

Santos did not lose his spot solely because he went back home to the Philipines, but probably due to the lack of computing skills or network he had over here, but did not have over there. He was probably emailed his contract and neglected to fill it out and return it by the deadline.

Anyway, I just had to get my rant out and like I have said before, I just want MY A game to come out and not look too feeble. I am sure it is what all the players want to do too.