Layered Tip Hype

TATE said:
Bolo Ocho makes a lot of sense, as usual.

I disagree with his assessment of Everest tips. The tip I'm using now is Everest and it's the best tip I've had yet. It's just that they need to be cut down to an effective height.

Layered tips, as of yet, have not fully taken advantage of their inherent design advantages. I predict that they soon will. Let's just say that I know at least one manufacturer will soon be taking advantage of the benefits offered by layered design.

For example, let's say you want a tip that grabs the cue ball but doesn't give laterally. The lower layers can be made with rock-hard leather or other material, while the top few layers and domed portion of the tip can use an open grained leather that holds chalk very well.

These tips are ideal for the next coming trend - 1/4" short ferrules with carbon fiber pads and thin tips with little lateral give but excellent grip.

This set-up above can be duplicated somewhat by a thin, one piece tip, but they will wear out a lot faster and not have the lateral resistance on english shots.

Chris
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I am with you Chris, I don't think I'll ever change using Everest tips. I have never had an issue with them.

One thing I disagree with is mushrooming. No matter if my tip is brand new or I am breaking it in, I have never had it mushroom.

I think the main reason, I choose layered tips is because before they became popular I used Le Pro tips exclusively. Unfortunately a percentage of those tips "blew out". I mean the side completely exploded on the tip. I never have this issue with layered tips.

Aside from that, good post.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
I think they are both right!

What I don't like about layered tips is the unavoidable tip GLAZING caused by the GLUE needed to hold the layers together!!! I can live with mushrooming but when your CASH is on the line a MISCUE due to GLAZING can be DEVASTATING!!!!!

kid dynomite
Click to expand...

This almost happened to me this weekend playing a 200$ set! I recently put a kumai ss black on and its miscueing like crazy. Although its pretty tall. I am going to try cutting it down to about half its size and I AM PRAYING this tip will actually start playing good. I got a kumai medium on my other shaft and it is cut down to a typical size tip, but it miscues quite a bit too. Everest dont play that good either. Had a moori medium once but it delaminated after 3 months. If these kumai blacks dont start playing better I am going to get some triangles and some elkmasters and some lepros. I will be done with layered tips.

Although now that I think about it, that moori medium played very well until it delaminated. Maybe I will give them one more chance.

Frustrating:banghead:
 
Triangle man here. $7 bucks installed and tapered in just enough to allow the mushroom. Tried them all. LD shafts are another gimmick to me. An opinion, just an opinion.

Give me an old growth, ivory ferrule, with a Triangle and I'm ready to battle.
 
I've had layered tips delaminate as well but I believe, on balance, there is more consistency from tip tp tip than with a non-layered tip. Here's a test, take 100 Everest tip and 100 lepro tips. Check the hardness ratings. See which is more consistent. I know the answer because I've done it. I am the one that came up with the hardness rating used in the Mueller catalog and website. You can also ask any number of cue repairmen out of 100 tips of Everest vs Lepro, how many 'bad' tips do you expect? (I use Everest in examples because it has been mentioned throughout this thread)

Do I think Lepros/Triangles/Elks are bad tips? No but I do feel their are better tips on the market. I actually used Triangles on my cues until I switched to Tsunamis and then to Everest by Tiger.
 
I used to love Triangle tips, and would use nothing else today if they were like they used to be. Now, you never know what you're going to wind up with. They have become much too inconsistent to bother with any more.
 
Why waste so much typing on why he doesn't play with layered tips?
Why not just provide reasons why he likes Triangles?
 
Tipsy

Bola,you've done it again!
Your posts make me think so hard that all 3 brain cells hurt.

Played with Champions years ago,still like the bakelite backing.
Then i started using medium hard mooris.They lasted 3 times longer
and play great but i have bouts of miscuing when crossing layers.

But when i thought long and hard (you tend to make people strive
to be honest) i realized the best tip i ever had was a Blue Diamond.
When it hardened up it still didn't miscue.I broke with my playing
cue back then,exploded 3 ferrules and kept the same tip for over
a year.Snipers are the closest to the feel i had with Blue Diamond.
Still holding on to mh mooris,the originals are superior.imo

Have friends who swear by Triangles but they press them.

I going to the mat about cues but keep up your thought
provoking posts.They make us think and define.
 
pt109 said:
But when i thought long and hard (you tend to make people strive
to be honest) i realized the best tip i ever had was a Blue Diamond.
Click to expand...

Ditto...Triangle used to be my favorite but noticed it seemed to get too hard for me as it wore down.
Blue Diamond starts out as a soft tip and eventually hardens to about where a Triangle starts out. At least that is what I have found and why I like them so much.
 
I have tried many different tips and always come back to Triangle.
When the Everest on my playing cue is done it will be back to Triangle.
I believe those tips last longer, feel and shoot as good as anything on the market.….and at a fraction of price……
Too much hype when comes to the next magic layered tip. Most of them fall apart rather fast and don’t hold shape any better than a non-layered tips.
 
TATE said:
Bolo Ocho makes a lot of sense, as usual.

I disagree with his assessment of Everest tips. The tip I'm using now is Everest and it's the best tip I've had yet. It's just that they need to be cut down to an effective height.

Layered tips, as of yet, have not fully taken advantage of their inherent design advantages. I predict that they soon will. Let's just say that I know at least one manufacturer will soon be taking advantage of the benefits offered by layered design.

For example, let's say you want a tip that grabs the cue ball but doesn't give laterally. The lower layers can be made with rock-hard leather or other material, while the top few layers and domed portion of the tip can use an open grained leather that holds chalk very well.
These tips are ideal for the next coming trend - 1/4" short ferrules with carbon fiber pads and thin tips with little lateral give but excellent grip.

Chris
Click to expand...

I like the idea of different layer density.Could be the tip of the future.
Joe Davis(20-time world snooker champ)said"A great tip is hard,with
a soft epidermis."
Raymond Ceulemans (another 20-time world champ)said"A good tip
is more important than a good cue."
Since the tip is the only thing that hits the cue ball,all this fuss is
worth it.
 
The best tip is the one you like best.

To me the best tip out there is the one that makes you feel confident in your game. If you pay $30 a year to have your $1000 cue retipped with a Kamui or Moori or whatever, vs. $10 a year to have it retipped with a triangle, is cost even a consideration? Along the same lines people who retip their own cues without the proper equipment and know-how are saving $10, but what's the ultimate cost of those savings? How many missed shots? Confidence lost? Sets lost....you get the picture. I tell people if they have found a tip they really like- stick with it.

The only comment I have about the points made in the original post and replies is about spin. Given the same contact point and same speed of the shot the difference in spin will not be caused by the number of layers but the hardness of the tip. The softer the tip the longer it will remain in contact with the cue ball. giving it the best chance to transfer its energy to the cue ball in the form of spin. Physics don't lie.

-Mike
 
Mike...I have to disagree with you, to a point. You're correct about a softer tip having a longer dwell time contact with the CB. However the difference is 1/1000th of a second (hard tip) vs. 2/1000th's of a second (soft tip)...not enough difference to make ANY discernable difference in reaction. Quality spin on the CB comes from a quality stroke (in conjunction with a very accurate strike on the CB)...not from any particular brand, shape, or hardness of tip. Physics DON'T lie...and the studies have been done already, with super slow motion photography (4000-12,000 fps).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

cheapcues.com said:
The only comment I have about the points made in the original post and replies is about spin. Given the same contact point and same speed of the shot the difference in spin will not be caused by the number of layers but the hardness of the tip. The softer the tip the longer it will remain in contact with the cue ball. giving it the best chance to transfer its energy to the cue ball in the form of spin. Physics don't lie.

-Mike
Click to expand...
 
Fieldhammer said:
Would you please elaborate?
Click to expand...


The edges of a layered tip need to be burnished and sealed. That should also be done to a non-layered tip but impact on the thick layer causes compression that has to go somewhere, usually as a mushroom or as the tip blowing apart. Each layer of the layered tip can compress but then returns to its shape. The layers are not so thick and, in a sense, pre-compressed.
 
Why all the crying about why Bola posted this long post. How about bc its a billiards discussion forum... dont like the topic, dont read it. If you disagree, state your opposing view. That hard to accept?

Right now I have a Triangle on one shaft and a Wizard on another, very similar shafts. Really, I can't tell a huge difference, at ths point. Not a real scientific experiment, but I'm going to have a hard time buying an expensive tip next time seeing how well the Triangle has performed. Still on the fence though and think there are good things about each. In the end $20 isn't going to break me and I'll go with what I feel most comfortable with.
 
Salamander said:
Never had a problem with a cut down le pro or triangle. They are inexpensive to.
Click to expand...

I think Salamader has a good point here! LePro or Triangle if left high do have more problems then when chopped down! The Mushrooming does get out of hand!!!

I have also noticed that the tips get pressed over time and become way too hard! plus. like someone else said the tips lack consistency with hardness! it could be the press or some other factor. limiting the amount of fibers per square millimeter by cutting can decrease them from hardening as bad. But, limits the life span of the tip and increases the frequency of tip changes.

I think the layered tip with less layers could be the best of both worlds. The original moori tips were 6 layers the move to 10 layers means more GLUE! more glue means more GLAZING!!! More glazing equals more miscues and more maintenance!!!

kid dynomite
 
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good thread

took me nearly 30 minutes to read through all of the posts to this thread and after this i just know that my eyes are going to need a break

very enjoyable and informative read :)
 
What's next, cloth, tables, tip tappers, wipe down cloths, wraps??? Where will it all end??
 
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