Layered Tips Review (Results)
- Thread starter Doctorlove
- Start date
Over the past few hundred thousand Ultraskins I have had a few people contact me that had lost layers. The usual reason for this is the tip got to hot during application. Usual cause of this is wrong cutting tool or using a razor blade many times.
A simple test is take a two pairs of vise grips. Ultraskins have plenty of meat so you can lock down on both ends. After locking down, twist and turn and try to get the layers to come apart.
If the tip does break away from itself check to see if it was a clean layer break. If it is not clean and you have shreded leather on both sides of break it means the adhesion was better than the co adhesion.
Lets do some math now, since Randy used me as an example it feels fair to use him as an example. 30 Tips, he paid $84.00. Some layers came off during 3 applications. three players had layers come off and he has 3 tips left "Few" definition. that leaves 20 people playing with the Ultraskins, question, are they happy? Will they tell friends they are happy?
Randy states he will advise against my tip, but will still put it on. That goes against anything I believe. If I think something is junk, I throw it away and say "I don't use that, those whatever.
Communication is the key. I am quite easily found on this site for a PM, I have my email address in my signature.
Can there ever be a problem? Sure, it would be crazy if there were not any problems in the world. Can problems be solved? Yes, they are solved every day by communication.
Have I ever not made anything right by a customer? No. I will take the bullet before the customer.
If you have another source that will go to my extremes, be ready available for communication, stick with that person as long as he/she is willing to co operate and get the problem fixed.
It boils down to Help me help you. I can never remember a day without a problem in my life.
A simple test is take a two pairs of vise grips. Ultraskins have plenty of meat so you can lock down on both ends. After locking down, twist and turn and try to get the layers to come apart.
If the tip does break away from itself check to see if it was a clean layer break. If it is not clean and you have shreded leather on both sides of break it means the adhesion was better than the co adhesion.
Lets do some math now, since Randy used me as an example it feels fair to use him as an example. 30 Tips, he paid $84.00. Some layers came off during 3 applications. three players had layers come off and he has 3 tips left "Few" definition. that leaves 20 people playing with the Ultraskins, question, are they happy? Will they tell friends they are happy?
Randy states he will advise against my tip, but will still put it on. That goes against anything I believe. If I think something is junk, I throw it away and say "I don't use that, those whatever.
Communication is the key. I am quite easily found on this site for a PM, I have my email address in my signature.
Can there ever be a problem? Sure, it would be crazy if there were not any problems in the world. Can problems be solved? Yes, they are solved every day by communication.
Have I ever not made anything right by a customer? No. I will take the bullet before the customer.
If you have another source that will go to my extremes, be ready available for communication, stick with that person as long as he/she is willing to co operate and get the problem fixed.
It boils down to Help me help you. I can never remember a day without a problem in my life.
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Now that's A+ Customer Service
I will be ordering a 10 pack of your tips today Tom. The only thing I would do differently is charge more for such excellent service and a proven product.
I will be ordering a 10 pack of your tips today Tom. The only thing I would do differently is charge more for such excellent service and a proven product.
Interesting thread. I'll admit, I'm not up on all this tip technology, the thought that keeps coming to my mind is why even consider a tip layered with glue when there are plenty of solid one piece leather tips available?
In almost every other instance, something solid is better than something pieced together with glue. In other words, besides the hype, the fad, or the "in thing" what's the advantage in the first place?
It seems to me, that no matter how consistent the layers may be, they can't be more consistent that a single piece of leather. That just seems like common sense, not to mention the ridiculous prices for a fingernail size of a chunk of leather. :scratchhead:
In almost every other instance, something solid is better than something pieced together with glue. In other words, besides the hype, the fad, or the "in thing" what's the advantage in the first place?
It seems to me, that no matter how consistent the layers may be, they can't be more consistent that a single piece of leather. That just seems like common sense, not to mention the ridiculous prices for a fingernail size of a chunk of leather. :scratchhead:
For me,
One of the main benefits to using a layered tip is consistency, from tip to tip.
If you buy a box of 50 single layer tips....
You may find a few "good ones"
If you buy 50 layered tips, of the same hardness rating, you will be able to use all 50 and they will play the same from tip to tip.
From an installers perspective that is the goal...to have a customer happy with a tip and keep coming back for the same one...
Don't mean to hijack here but I wanted to give a thumbs up to Tom. I installed an Ultraskin a couple of days ago for one of the top players in the area. He finished high in the US Amateur last year. He's been using Kamui Blacks for a while but decided to try the Ultraskin.
He texted me yesterday form a tournament and said he really like the Ultraskin. Well done, Tom!
Layer Thickness
I was just wondering, were you ale to measure the layer thickness of the different tips.
If so can you publish this.
I was just wondering, were you ale to measure the layer thickness of the different tips.
If so can you publish this.
I understand your theory. The problem with the theory is how many parts of the cue itself are not adhered? The ferrule and any tip are also adhered.
I think CueJo nailed it but wanted to add it takes around 250 -350F to break the adhesive down. I feel that type heat is going to effect any leather, its like cooking it. Based on that it could be the reason most people prefer one cue repair person putting tips on Vs another even though they are putting on the same brand tip.
Just my theory.
Tom Hay / Chris Renfro
Tom, I went to your website the other day looking to buy Oinkers and Ultraskins.
There were no Oinkers listed?
What is the difference.
Chris went to your website and couldn't see any tips for sale?
How can I order some.
Tom, I went to your website the other day looking to buy Oinkers and Ultraskins.
There were no Oinkers listed?
What is the difference.
Chris went to your website and couldn't see any tips for sale?
How can I order some.
The single layered tips I am producing actual test more consistent than some layered tips I have tested... I think the key is in quality controls regardless of type of construction... You have to have a way to test the final products and be willing to toss aside anything that won't meet spec...
with the boxed tips you are talking about I don't think there is any grading in the final production steps which leads to the issues you are talking about......
Chris
Great work on the testing! Thanks! If you do further testing and do any non layered tips, I'd be interested in Triangles, and Triumph as test tips.
Tom, I haven't had any problem with delamination so far. I'm very careful to use sharp tooling. Like the play of the Oinker's as well. Thanks :grin:
Tom, I haven't had any problem with delamination so far. I'm very careful to use sharp tooling. Like the play of the Oinker's as well. Thanks :grin:
Not sure I follow your logic here. So ... just because it is necessary to glue one or more parts of a cue together, then (by your logic) it is a better thing to glue as many parts together as possible, even if it means ripping them apart and gluing them back together.
In other words, to make an analogy, we are putting up sheetrock. No sense putting up a 4x8 sheet, better is to cut it up in 16 inch squares first and then put them on the wall and tape them together.
I'm not saying you are wrong, cause I don't know, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Not counting the bottom of the tip where it is glued to the ferrule, a one piece tip is 100% leather. On the other hand a layered tip is part leather and part glue.
Extending this thought, perhaps it is better to mold a quarter inch thick piece of glue and then just slab on a little bit of leather on top?
What is better, a solid hardwood rail on a pool table, or glued together pieces of wood.
Whats better 3 piece slate, or a one piece slate as the Diamond tables make?
I'm reading, I'm listening, but I'm far from being sold that laminated things are better than solid things, especially when these things are as tiny as a cue tip.
We are writing of applying one layer on top of each other. In Building with wood it is called a Stress Skin panel which adds enough strength for wood thickness to carry snow loads.
There is a big difference in joining things together on top of each other rather than side to side.
To finish your logic with more logic some like a Brunswick Gold Crown over a Diamond table, some like a regular shaft over a Predator shaft some like Diamond chalk over Masters.
Choice of what you like better makes the world go round. One shoe will not fit all feet.
I agree with much of what you said, but I'd like to propose a line of thought that may help us understand the purpose of laminating a tip.
I'm certainly not a cue or tip expert, but there are many examples of organic materials becoming stronger, more consistent, and more warp-resistant when they are partially deconstructed, then reassembled in a specific manner.
Think about plywood, maybe even oriented strand board. Regular plywood would be the most direct analogue to a layered tip.
By slicing a hunk of wood into thin layers, then gluing the sheets back together in a specific orientation, engineers have redesigned a "whole" product into an "assembled" product that is superior in many ways. Of course, plywood is not as pretty, but that's not the intent.
Just something to think about...
Interesting thread; Thanks for all the comments.
-Blake
Certainly there are applications where laminated products benefit from added strength. In the case of the plywood comparison, lets try to more closely simulate relative uses.
If you cut a 3/4" sheet of plywood into an 18 in wide strip x 8" long,and placed it across two blocks so as to create a bridge, the plywood would be stronger to walk across than a 3/4" x 18" wide piece of solid birch.
But now take that same plywood, and that same solid sheet of 3/4" birch, and lay them flat on a concrete driveway. Which is more solid to walk across?
Probably neither because they are both backed by the cement, just like a tip is backed by the ferrule.
But now with both pieces laying flat on the cement, continually drop a bowling ball on them. Which will fracture and come apart first?
That is more closely simulating the stress on a cue tip.
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Very nice post sir!
Just sold my last 3 Snipers to another cue repair guy. Don't like 'em.
Dull, or inappropriate, tools will do the damage most of the time.
Very true. I always grab a fresh blade when shaping any new layered tip. I've also found that dampening the sides of layered tips when sizing to the ferrule makes a huge difference.