LD shaft for one pocket?

lfigueroa said:
Did someone say "superstroke?" (inside joke for some here.)

Here's my thought about superstroke: sometimes, something almost magical happens on a pool table. The cue ball moves in wondeous ways; the object balls make a different sound; your cue feels alive and you can almost feel the cue ball on your tip, right through five feet of wood, up into your arm, brain, and soul.

When I'm playing well, I feel like I can go through the cue ball at all different kinds of angles, with all kinds of different motions, at a wide variety of speeds. I truly believe the expression, "How'd he dab that one?!" is more expressive and insightful that most folks understand. Because that's what I feel when I'm running racks: I'm "dabbing" the ball -- not stroking it. It's like being in front of a canvas and creating something beyond the scientific formulas

Sometimes, it's almost hard to keep from overdrawing the ball with hardly any effort or speed. (Other times, the cue ball seems like it's made of lead.) I have my own set of balls and usually practice on the same table, so I don't subscribe to the idea of this being equipment related. And, I'm usually pretty methodical about setting up,so I also don't subscribe to this being an issue of how low you hit the ball. So what's left?

Here's my own personal pet theory, which to a certain extent, I've tested out: I think on some days my grip is slightly cocked to the rear. As you sit at your computer, hold your grip hand down as if holding a cue. Now, if you're a right-hander, rotate it slightly counterclockwise. Now compare the wrist action between the two. When you cock your wrist, the action, at least for me, becomes much more fluid, faster, and feels more powerful. I think this wrist position, perhaps with some additional elements related to how tight or loose the grip is, how far back the wrist is cocked, and maybe how much elevation is created, combine for the "superstoke" effect, for Lou. Somehow the delivery is altered and whether it's tip speed, contact time, or whatever, there's a significant difference in what happens on the table. The trick then becomes creating this effect and sustaining maximum accuracy.

I'm not quite there yet, but I be trying.

Lou Figueroa
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Lou,
Since you are right-handed:

Would you mind clarifying your "cocked" wrist again? You're saying that you cock your wrist out from the right side of your body when you are holding the cue, slightly pointing your knuckles further to the right of your cue and not cocking your wrist by moving your wrist toward the rear of your cue?

If so, is your wrist still flexing back and forth when you stroke or is it locked into one position, not flexing at all.

Have you ever noticed CJ Wiley's grip? Especially notice his grip at finish.
I am wondering if he flexes his wrist forward and backward at all. A wrist cocked to the rear and never flexing would reduce some motion but I don't know if it will bring you to that magical place.

I'm going to slip on over to the pool rom to hit a few balls since I have some current inspiration.

Thanks.
 
People/players often think they are doing something but in reality they are not doing what they think they are doing.

One example is the traditional shaft vs the LD shaft. Some people think they can use the TS and squirt the cue ball around the impeding object ball "better" and swerve the cue ball "better".

If that were true, what's all the buzz about LD shafts putting more spin on the cueball? OK, if LD shafts can't put more spin on the cueball, can they put the same amount of spin on the cueball as Traditional Shafts?

I think TS squirt more and you have to aim compensate more for the additional squirt (larger margin for error).

If a traditional shaft could actually squerve the cue ball more, maybe there would be some basis for stating that TS are better for squerving the cue ball around impeding object balls.

In fact, if you could prove that traditional shafts curve/swerve the cue ball more than LD shafts you could have a good argument about which is better for playing one pocket.

I believe that people get strong opinions about what they think they are of doing but is simply that they are happy with the results and think that their way is the best way to accomplish that particular goal.

Sometimes these strong opinions are so powerful in our minds that it is hard to swallow the "academics" words since they may not play as well as some of the people who dedicate their lives to hitting millions of balls.

Getting used to your equipment is 9/10ths of the battle but if one piece of equipment helps YOU play better, stick with it, just don't presume that it will be better for someone else as well because we're all individuals with different likes and dislikes.
 
JoeyA said:
Lou,
Since you are right-handed:

Would you mind clarifying your "cocked" wrist again? You're saying that you cock your wrist out from the right side of your body when you are holding the cue, slightly pointing your knuckles further to the right of your cue and not cocking your wrist by moving your wrist toward the rear of your cue?

If so, is your wrist still flexing back and forth when you stroke or is it locked into one position, not flexing at all.

Have you ever noticed CJ Wiley's grip? Especially notice his grip at finish.
I am wondering if he flexes his wrist forward and backward at all. A wrist cocked to the rear and never flexing would reduce some motion but I don't know if it will bring you to that magical place.

I'm going to slip on over to the pool rom to hit a few balls since I have some current inspiration.

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Joey, what I'm saying is that your knuckles end up facing a bit more upwards. The wrist is loose, but the cue is touching the fleshy part of your hand between the thumb and index finger.

Funny thing is that I was shown this grip 40 years ago. I was practicing one day at my home room for the ACIU 14.1 West Coast regionals and a very good house player named Dee Hulse saw me struggling. He came over to me and said he wanted to show me the grip he used, and that was shown to him by Eddie Taylor (!). What he did was to tell me to rest the cue on my shoulder and then look at my grip -- it just naturally falls into this position. Then you just lower the cue forward and maintain the grip.

Hope it works for you or leads you somewhere good.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Joey, what I'm saying is that your knuckles end up facing a bit more upwards. The wrist is loose, but the cue is touching the fleshy part of your hand between the thumb and index finger.

Funny thing is that I was shown this grip 40 years ago. I was practicing one day at my home room for the ACIU 14.1 West Coast regionals and a very good house player named Dee Hulse saw me struggling. He came over to me and said he wanted to show me the grip he used, and that was shown to him by Eddie Taylor (!). What he did was to tell me to rest the cue on my shoulder and then look at my grip -- it just naturally falls into this position. Then you just lower the cue forward and maintain the grip.

Hope it works for you or leads you somewhere good.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

An interesting thing happened last night when I went out to practice holding the cue in different ways. I started holding the cue less firmly and it resulted in some additional potting on difficult shots.

Thanks.
JoeyA
 
Now they have a cue weighted on the bottom. I just read about the inlaid cue shaft with lines that Dave Keikl supposedly makes. Either should promote a straight hanging wrist.

I think the wrist cock should be back and forward hanging straight down for those that use wrist action. Mine cocks back naturally by the end of the back stroke. If the transition is smooth my wrist uncocks when the weight of the cue catches up to my arm speed. That is, my arm and wrist resemble address position at impact. From there it cocks slightly forward through impact. Never did a slo-mo but that is the feeling.

I use to have certain students practice with a quart milk jug partially filled. One thing for sure they did not cup, invert or twist their wrist, like they did with a cue. I always thought a cored cue with a steel rod in the center would help promote a straight wrist. One thing for sure you would not be able to rush the stroke. If one did their going to use big muscles, like the shoulder. Swing a heavy weight (or any weight) requires good rhythm & timing to be accurate.

Rod
 
Rod said:
I think the wrist cock should be back and forward hanging straight down for those that use wrist action. Mine cocks back naturally by the end of the back stroke. If the transition is smooth my wrist uncocks when the weight of the cue catches up to my arm speed. That is, my arm and wrist resemble address position at impact. From there it cocks slightly forward through impact. Never did a slo-mo but that is the feeling.
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I think this video of Mike Massey's power draw shot is a good example of what you are describing:

Regards,
Dave
 
A agree that "stroke magic/superstroke" somehow is very sensitive to what the wrist is doing or has done. It's clear from watching strong players that MANY players have independently discovered things about the importance of the wrist, one way or another. Few (but no zero) strong players play with a tight wrist and a closed grip (but, unabiguously, a FEW actually do--but you never tend to see any "superstroke" hits from them). One CAN play extremely well without needing to be able to place extreme action on the CB.
 
GetMeThere said:
A agree that "stroke magic/superstroke" somehow is very sensitive to what the wrist is doing or has done. It's clear from watching strong players that MANY players have independently discovered things about the importance of the wrist, one way or another. Few (but no zero) strong players play with a tight wrist and a closed grip (but, unabiguously, a FEW actually do--but you never tend to see any "superstroke" hits from them). One CAN play extremely well without needing to be able to place extreme action on the CB.
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The last time I checked, Semih Sayginer didn't do a lot of wrist stuff. He has a fairly powerful stroke and gets more spin on the ball than most.
 
Bob Jewett said:
The last time I checked, Semih Sayginer didn't do a lot of wrist stuff. He has a fairly powerful stroke and gets more spin on the ball than most.
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Well...by "wrist stuff" I mostly meant a loose wrist that seems to "wag." It's one of the first things I noticed about strong local players when I started the game. Back then I took it as a badge of expertise--I never saw a banger with a wagging wrist...

EDIT: Looking here, it seems like Blomdahl has a more "substantial" grip on the cue than most pool players use. IIRC, Sayginer is similar. But I don't know anything about playing 3C, or 3C players. From what little 3C I've watched, it seems those players virtually never hit a CB low--which is where the "superstroke" I'm talking about is usually made manifest....but I don't want to pretend I know ANYTHING about 3C, or 3C players.

My main claim is that strong 9-ball players, specifically, seem to have at least a more than casual "awareness" of the wrist component of their strokes.
 
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I remember Dee when he was a used car salesman at the Rambler dealership in Redwood City in the 60’s. He used to come in at lunch time and play at Dorothy’s billiard room in Redwood. This was all before he opened Executive Billiards over on Broadway. He did have an unusual way of playing as I recall, he used to play George Williams Sr quite a bit.
 
Bob Jewett said:
As I understand the physics, what Pat said was correct. Do you have some specific correction? Do you have a demonstration of the effect of stroke on changing squirt, other than the well-known compensation from back-hand english/aim-and-pivot?
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I find both jump shots and masse shots are more difficult with LD shafts. Sometimes jumping just 1/2 inch up will allow you to make a shot.

BTW, I use an Alex Brick cue (John Davis blank) and an OB Classic shaft, Ki-Tek medium soft tip. Just after i had it made, all 3 cue manufacturers passed away. No one wants to touch my cue.
 
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