LD shafts My Humble opinion

[RBC]

"Don't get me wrong, there are some really good LD cue shafts out there. Certainly more than there used to be. But there are way more that claim to be LD than really are. Without any kind of industry standard or regulation, anyone can claim their cue shafts are LD, whether they really are or not."

Are there industry standards? All I ever see is a shaft called LD. What is that compared to? Also if LD shafts increase accuracy. Why in most cases are they not sold as the standard with the cues? Why are they usually sold separately at a much higher price? If the idea is to sell the best performing cue.

Jburk

There aren't any industry standards. We have no industry agent who could collect data and set any kind of standards.

I've seen shafts called LD that basically just have a short ferrule. They probably are slightly lower in cue ball squirt than most standard shafts, but not enough to really even consider.

LD shaft reduce cue ball squirt. Accuracy is a whole other topic.

LD shafts are sold as standard with cues made by LD companies such as OB Cues and Predator. Other companies that did not start with performance technology typically offer their cues with normal shafts. Many are now offering upgrades to their own LD types of cue shafts. Many are good. Some are not.

As for price, it's really very simple. It really doesn't cost much to make a normal cue shaft. Our OB shafts, are much more involved than a normal solid maple shaft. I could cut my costs by more than half just making solid maple shafts. Probably more. Yet, I can still see very many cue makers who ask as much or more for their regular shafts as we ask for our LD shafts. To be honest, we have to build lots and lots of them every month in order to utilize the economy of scale and keep the costs down.

Now for the salesmanship part. If you're looking for the best performing cue, you should take a look at our cues. We offer quality performance cues that are built like a custom cue, but priced more like a production cue. Don't forget to check out the sharpness of our Infinity Inlays as well. You won't find them anywhere else!


Royce

 

[jhanso18]

No, but the difference would be very little for that area.

My thoughts as well.

Now for the next question, is there a viable material that is lighter, yet stronger than maple, to use a substitute?

 

[JoeyInCali]

My thoughts as well.

Now for the next question, is there a viable material that is lighter, yet stronger than maple, to use a substitute?

Carbon fiber ?
But, people want maple on the outside.

 

[jhanso18]

Carbon fiber ?
But, people want maple on the outside.

Again we are on the same page! I've been dinking about with carbon fiber in my cars for years, just can't seem to find a good way to use it for shaft material without spending BIG bucks...

Either way, I'll stick to what i've been playing for the last 2 years or so. I seem to finally be making balls. Who knows, maybe one of these days I might even be decent!!!!

 

[Don Owen]

Carbon fiber composite

I think you will find that the specific gravity of carbon fiber composite is in the range of twice that of hard maple.

Don

 

[8pack]

I know i am gonna get beat up and bashed over this one but here it goes.

I was reasding a thread yesterday and a fairly new player was asking about wheather or not to buy a low end playing cue and add an LD shaft as his buget was about 300-400 dollars.

I asked him have you ever played with an LD shaft and his answer was no.

My suggestion was take his buget and buy a decent player , Joss , McDermott, Pechaur or something along these lines , find a cue he liked and that fit his playing style and worry about adding an LD shaft later if he just had to have one

For me being a solid maple shaft guy , My personal opinion are LD Shafts are the best gimmick pool cue manufactures have come up with to seperate you from your money.

I have yet played with an LD shaft that i liked better than a solid maple shaft.

It seems new players and even some experinced players are all caught up in the newest gaget craze when it comes to pool technology.

Pool skill does not come your equipment , yes equipment plays a small part but a very small part , you take a player of Efren Reyes , Earl Strickland Caliber , they will beat you to death with a mop handle no matter if you have a 10K blackboar in your hand . with seperate LD shafts for every shot like a bag of golf clubs.

I think many players spend too much time worrying about the equipment and too little time working on the things that matter , fundamentals , stroke , and practice

This is Just my Opinion

Best of Rolls

There are a lot of good players using them,wonder why?
Earl and Efren where playing great before ld shafts were around.Why would they change?
You ever wonder if some of the older player's would of used them if they were introduced to them when they started?

SVB uses one,you think he's crazy for doing so?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I know i am gonna get beat up and bashed over this one but here it goes.

I was reasding a thread yesterday and a fairly new player was asking about wheather or not to buy a low end playing cue and add an LD shaft as his buget was about 300-400 dollars.

I asked him have you ever played with an LD shaft and his answer was no.

My suggestion was take his buget and buy a decent player , Joss , McDermott, Pechaur or something along these lines , find a cue he liked and that fit his playing style and worry about adding an LD shaft later if he just had to have one

For me being a solid maple shaft guy , My personal opinion are LD Shafts are the best gimmick pool cue manufactures have come up with to seperate you from your money.

I have yet played with an LD shaft that i liked better than a solid maple shaft.

It seems new players and even some experinced players are all caught up in the newest gaget craze when it comes to pool technology.

Pool skill does not come your equipment , yes equipment plays a small part but a very small part , you take a player of Efren Reyes , Earl Strickland Caliber , they will beat you to death with a mop handle no matter if you have a 10K blackboar in your hand . with seperate LD shafts for every shot like a bag of golf clubs.

I think many players spend too much time worrying about the equipment and too little time working on the things that matter , fundamentals , stroke , and practice

This is Just my Opinion

Best of Rolls

Billy,

Your post makes it sound like you haven't yet sorted out in your head a few things. First of all, better players are better than worse players. Efren and Earl have an extremely rare natural talent, coupled with an intense desire to excel, coupled with an environment to help them do so, coupled with endless hours of practice, etc. These examples have almost no bearing on the vast majority of the pool playing public. What Earl of Efren can do is essentially irrelevant. Of course focusing on stroke and practice will help.

However, if you believe that LD shafts are a "gimmick", then you simply lack the understanding of what it is exactly that they do. There are hundreds of threads talking about the way LD shafts work. You don't ahve to *prefer* LD shafts...thats fine! However, my guess is that you have never spent much time playing with one (like weeks or months). Also, if you think they are a gimmick, then you probably don't really know what they can do, and what you can do with them. I bet if someone who understood LD shafts could show you a few shots to play around with, you would at very least recognize that they are not just hype. The fact is, they can take a lot of time off the learning curve, particularly with pocketing balls with english.

The other major item you seem to have overlooked is this: Everyone agree that skill does not come from the equipment. However, at *a given level of skill*, equipment can make a difference. In other words, a guy shooting with a cue he loves and feels good about probably shoots better than the same guy shooting with a cue he doesn't like and isn't comfortable with.

It boils down to this. If I give you ten big inside english stroke shots, I can almost guarantee that your success rate will be better with a LD shaft, even if you are not used to it. That is why they are popular. The hype follows the reality in this case. Why don't pro golfers use crappy clubs? Heck their pros, right? When you find yourself about to criticize something or call it a gimmick, you should probably think it all the way through.

Thanks for sharing, but yes, I think your far off on this one.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I could have made a better comparison for sure

My point is when two players of equel skill match up the equipment advantage or disadvantage is not going to matter. Me being a solid maple shaft player , playing an equelly skilled LD shaft player , the equipment is not what will make the difference in the game.

What i see is alot of new players who think dropping 250 dollars on an LD shaft is going to make them a better player , instead of taking the time to develope thier game and fundementals and practice.

I am not bashing LD shafts , If thats a players preference and thats what works best for them then its obviously money well spent

But thinking that an LD shaft is going to make suddenly make them play two or three balls better than a hard maple shaft is not going to happen

What evidence do you base this assumption on? How do you *know* that you couldn't take a solid maple player and *teach* them how to use a LD shaft and bring their game up a notch in a short period?

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

If you're good enough to tell the difference between a quality shaft and an LD shaft, you're usually good enough to compensate for it, so what does it matter???

They handicap horses by adding extra weight in the saddle. The best horses are able to "compensate" for this and win anyway. But wouldn't it be even easier without the handicap?

Any time you are "compensating" for something, you are *doing* something. More work. More variables. More places to make an error. Why force yourself to compensate? Seems like stubbornness more than sense. Unless of course there is *some other* reason why maple shaft people don't like LD :wink:. Feel perhaps? It took me 10 years of shooting with a solid maple shaft before switching to the original 314. I hated the feel of it. Dull and hollow. Once I learned about english though, I got over it. It makes the game easier for me. Easier is, well...easier. I like easier.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KRJ]

They handicap horses by adding extra weight in the saddle. The best horses are able to "compensate" for this and win anyway. But wouldn't it be even easier without the handicap?

Any time you are "compensating" for something, you are *doing* something. More work. More variables. More places to make an error. Why force yourself to compensate? Seems like stubbornness more than sense. Unless of course there is *some other* reason why maple shaft people don't like LD :wink:. Feel perhaps? It took me 10 years of shooting with a solid maple shaft before switching to the original 314. I hated the feel of it. Dull and hollow. Once I learned about english though, I got over it. It makes the game easier for me. Easier is, well...easier. I like easier.

KMRUNOUT

easier is good

 

[Banks]

They handicap horses by adding extra weight in the saddle. The best horses are able to "compensate" for this and win anyway. But wouldn't it be even easier without the handicap?

Any time you are "compensating" for something, you are *doing* something. More work. More variables. More places to make an error. Why force yourself to compensate? Seems like stubbornness more than sense. Unless of course there is *some other* reason why maple shaft people don't like LD :wink:. Feel perhaps? It took me 10 years of shooting with a solid maple shaft before switching to the original 314. I hated the feel of it. Dull and hollow. Once I learned about english though, I got over it. It makes the game easier for me. Easier is, well...easier. I like easier.

KMRUNOUT

I think I got my Z shaft somewhere around maybe 2 years into playing and gave it up a year ago, I think(so, about 6 years with it). It just wasn't the feel I was as comfortable with and it seemed to magnify any errors. When I started shooting mostly with the bar cue, it was like trying to ride a bike backwards the times I'd take it out for a double-check.

 

[BWColeman]

Svb

There are a lot of good players using them,wonder why?
Earl and Efren where playing great before ld shafts were around.Why would they change?
You ever wonder if some of the older player's would of used them if they were introduced to them when they started?

SVB uses one,you think he's crazy for doing so?

If SVB Jumped off the Tri-burogh bridge , and came up for air "saying you know I think I play a ball better because of that plunge"

Would it be a good idea to follow suite ?

But you can bet if he did there would be a line of people willing to do just that

And some Business Savvy guy Charging them to do it

 

[8pack]

If SVB Jumped off the Tri-burogh bridge , and came up for air "saying you know I think I play a ball better because of that plunge"

Would it be a good idea to follow suite ?

But you can bet if he did there would be a line of people willing to do just that

And some Business Savvy guy Charging them to do it

You could go shoot with a tooth brush for all I care.

 

[BWColeman]

Evidence

What evidence do you base this assumption on? How do you *know* that you couldn't take a solid maple player and *teach* them how to use a LD shaft and bring their game up a notch in a short period?

KMRUNOUT

For me and I can only speak for me. the evidence is I have 2 LD shafts , a pre cat 314 and a 314-2 , I don't really care for either one as a playing shaft , and I have gave them both a more than fair run , I played with the 314 for about 18 months and the 314-2 for nearly a year

For me its the feel and the hit that turn me off , as far as performance , I can pot as many balls with either an LD or a solid Maple , with out having to make a big adjustment for English.

I can not see where an LD improved my performance one bit over a solid maple shaft. Other than I just couldn't stand the dead hit feel of the Predators.

So for me it was a waste of around 400 dollars on these two shafts

Now you may take a solid maple player give him an LD shaft and he may love it , or like me never be able to get used to it

My point from the beginning has never been to bash LD shafts, but to say what I have seen players buying into to LD shafts that think the equipment is going to improve their game , without putting in the time to develop their stroke , learning the fundamentals , and practice

I can play just as well with an LD as I do with a solid maple , but that comes from 27 years of playing and practice and putting in the table time , not from the equipment

Best of Rolls

 

[Cornerman]

For me and I can only speak for me. the evidence is I have 2 LD shafts , a pre cat 314 and a 314-2 , I don't really care for either one as a playing shaft , and I have gave them both a more than fair run , I played with the 314 for about 18 months and the 314-2 for nearly a year

For me its the feel and the hit that turn me off , as far as performance , I can pot as many balls with either an LD or a solid Maple , with out having to make a big adjustment for English.

I can not see where an LD improved my performance one bit over a solid maple shaft. Other than I just couldn't stand the dead hit feel of the Predators.

Sounds like you gave them a fair shakedown. You're not alone in both your length of trial and your results. However, the low squirt shafts (aka LD shafts) aren't gimmicks. Most of them do what they're engineered to do: lower cueball squirt.

I understand why those who have found benefit in LD shafts would feel so confident that LD shafts would help everyone's game and/or shorten the learning curve. I just hope those who say it truly understand that this is an emotional response not based on anything else other than personal subjectivity.

They aren't gimmicks, but many aren't going to get the net benefit that others get.

Freddie <~~~ negative net

 

[jhanso18]

They handicap horses by adding extra weight in the saddle. The best horses are able to "compensate" for this and win anyway. But wouldn't it be even easier without the handicap?

Any time you are "compensating" for something, you are *doing* something. More work. More variables. More places to make an error. Why force yourself to compensate? Seems like stubbornness more than sense. Unless of course there is *some other* reason why maple shaft people don't like LD :wink:. Feel perhaps? It took me 10 years of shooting with a solid maple shaft before switching to the original 314. I hated the feel of it. Dull and hollow. Once I learned about english though, I got over it. It makes the game easier for me. Easier is, well...easier. I like easier.

KMRUNOUT

I agree to an extent. The thing about pool is there is no right and wrong, only what works for the individual shooter. I've tried a couple LD's out, and just don't like them. The one that was close was an OB classic I think. The OB with a white ferrule. It hit OK, but I just didn't like the feed back. It didn't seem to deflect much more if any, than my Keith shaft at the time. I'm am quite a bit further in development of my game now, so maybe I would see major difference now. It seems every time I stray away from my everyday player I just move backward, so I'm a bit hesitant.

Either way I agree with you, if it's easier to play with that vs. this, always go with that.

All the best!

 

[Roger Long]

Jburk

There aren't any industry standards. We have no industry agent who could collect data and set any kind of standards.

I've seen shafts called LD that basically just have a short ferrule. They probably are slightly lower in cue ball squirt than most standard shafts, but not enough to really even consider.

LD shaft reduce cue ball squirt. Accuracy is a whole other topic.

LD shafts are sold as standard with cues made by LD companies such as OB Cues and Predator. Other companies that did not start with performance technology typically offer their cues with normal shafts. Many are now offering upgrades to their own LD types of cue shafts. Many are good. Some are not.

As for price, it's really very simple. It really doesn't cost much to make a normal cue shaft. Our OB shafts, are much more involved than a normal solid maple shaft. I could cut my costs by more than half just making solid maple shafts. Probably more. Yet, I can still see very many cue makers who ask as much or more for their regular shafts as we ask for our LD shafts. To be honest, we have to build lots and lots of them every month in order to utilize the economy of scale and keep the costs down.

Now for the salesmanship part. If you're looking for the best performing cue, you should take a look at our cues. We offer quality performance cues that are built like a custom cue, but priced more like a production cue. Don't forget to check out the sharpness of our Infinity Inlays as well. You won't find them anywhere else!


Royce

I like your honest style, Royce.

If I am to be as honest as you, I have to admit that my past bias against LD shafts was due to my own perception as to what happens when hitting a cue ball above the horizontal center line with English. That perception said that squirt was practically non-existent when the cue ball was struck there; but was built on results that were obtained by stroking the cue with my own hands. However, after I built a rig that would guarantee the ball was being struck with absolutely parallel English (no guiding with the back hand), the results changed. It's apparent that I must have been doing some subconscious "steering" of the cue ball with backhand English when I stroked the ball with my own hands.. But when using the stroke rig, the new results agreed with the findings of many others, like yourself, who have studied this subject in depth.

Another change took place when one of my customers had me take his 314-2 shaft down to 12.25mm and then showed me how well it could draw the ball. He was drawing the ball 7 and 8 feet with practically no effort.

I'm still not using a LD shaft at this point, but that could change. The biggest obstacle for me would be adjusting to something smaller than 13mm. I just don't like the feel of skinny shafts.

Roger

 

[naji]

I agree to an extent. The thing about pool is there is no right and wrong, only what works for the individual shooter. I've tried a couple LD's out, and just don't like them. The one that was close was an OB classic I think. The OB with a white ferrule. It hit OK, but I just didn't like the feed back. It didn't seem to deflect much more if any, than my Keith shaft at the time. I'm am quite a bit further in development of my game now, so maybe I would see major difference now. It seems every time I stray away from my everyday player I just move backward, so I'm a bit hesitant.

Either way I agree with you, if it's easier to play with that vs. this, always go with that.

All the best!

If you do not want to read a lot go to the red text below!
Once my son asked me which city i thought the best for him, i answered it like this, son, i am sorry my opinion will be biased, and most likely i will give you an answer that is favors my gut feeling, and not your knowledge, experience and what you desire. He smiled and said thanks dad. Back to cues and shafts, It sounds like you are a cue maker as your posts signature suggests, (i could be wrong) and some, not all your opinions could be influenced, not that you mean so, it is what your inner mind is believed and is convinced of what you know, i do appreciate the fact you are not sticking to your gun and offering varying thoughts.
Truth is humans are not machines, the best pool player, dart player, golfer, bowler do miss at times mainly due to many factors, one of the biggest factor the body (feet, back, hands, head, elbow, knees, eyes and others) is miss aligned to the "shot making position" maybe it is called off stance, two types static and dynamic problem. It could be feet only, feet, hands, or combination off stance, before the shot, or possibly stance is good before shot, and moved while shooting (dynamic) issue.

if OB path was different than what was intended after the shot; many reasons to cause it; one of which tip unintentionally strikes CB with more or less english, here is where LD and HD shafts makes a difference, sure this could be corrected for next shot with various means, but it will happen again during pressure moments, at pro level, one OB miss could mean a match especially on tight pockets, and serious and dedicated player would do and try anything to minimize (cannot eliminate) stuff like this; LD shaft allows a player to better judge how much aim offset needed for certain shots. Would i insist that a casual none money or tournament player buy a LD shaft, of course not, would i advise of owning one, sure i would; after all, when you think of it as investment in pool knowledge the cost will be justified; but one has to reach very high knowledge level to start appreciating the differences in shafts.

 

[jhanso18]

If you do not want to read a lot go to the red text below!
Once my son asked me which city i thought the best for him, i answered it like this, son, i am sorry my opinion will be biased, and most likely i will give you an answer that is favors my gut feeling, and not your knowledge, experience and what you desire. He smiled and said thanks dad. Back to cues and shafts, It sounds like you are a cue maker as your posts signature suggests, (i could be wrong) and some, not all your opinions could be influenced, not that you mean so, it is what your inner mind is believed and is convinced of what you know, i do appreciate the fact you are not sticking to your gun and offering varying thoughts.
Truth is humans are not machines, the best pool player, dart player, golfer, bowler do miss at times mainly due to many factors, one of the biggest factor the body (feet, back, hands, head, elbow, knees, eyes and others) is miss aligned to the "shot making position" maybe it is called off stance, two types static and dynamic problem. It could be feet only, feet, hands, or combination off stance, before the shot, or possibly stance is good before shot, and moved while shooting (dynamic) issue.

if OB path was different than what was intended after the shot; many reasons to cause it; one of which tip unintentionally strikes CB with more or less english, here is where LD and HD shafts makes a difference, sure this could be corrected for next shot with various means, but it will happen again during pressure moments, at pro level, one OB miss could mean a match especially on tight pockets, and serious and dedicated player would do and try anything to minimize (cannot eliminate) stuff like this; LD shaft allows a player to better judge how much aim offset needed for certain shots. Would i insist that a casual none money or tournament player buy a LD shaft, of course not, would i advise of owning one, sure i would; after all, when you think of it as investment in pool knowledge the cost will be justified; but one has to reach very high knowledge level to start appreciating the differences in shafts.

I am not a builder. I do however have intense and lengthy conversations with a man (Keith Hanssen) about construction techniques, deflection, tip choices, and MANY other aspects of pool. (Keith is also a very accomplished player, as well as builder, and close personal friend.) That being said I understand your arguments, as well as others. The one thing no one should on either side of the LD vs. Standard argument is close their minds to what the other person says. There is always something to be learned. A lot of what I have learned has come from Keith, most of the rest from AZB, or people I have met through AZB. (I'm obviously still learning more all the time.)

One day I hope to build some cues, but until the day where I have the means to make it happen the right way, I will wait, and learn. (The right way being money and a VERY large pile of wood to work with, and most importantly TIME!)

No matter how you argue, for or against LD shafts, one thing we can all agree on, is that a shaft or cue with less deflection is better. Just gotta find an LD shaft that hits like a steel rod, and I'll be happy!

All the best,

 

[JoeyInCali]

Sounds like you gave them a fair shakedown. You're not alone in both your length of trial and your results. However, the low squirt shafts (aka LD shafts) aren't gimmicks. Most of them do what they're engineered to do: lower cueball squirt.

I understand why those who have found benefit in LD shafts would feel so confident that LD shafts would help everyone's game and/or shorten the learning curve. I just hope those who say it truly understand that this is an emotional response not based on anything else other than personal subjectivity.

They aren't gimmicks, but many aren't going to get the net benefit that others get.

Freddie <~~~ negative net

Can you list TRUE LD shafts in the market now ?
A lot aren't really LD shafts imo.
One is really an HD shaft. It has a really hard and heavy stemmed ferrule.