10 years is pretty impressive. If I wore a hat I would take it off to you.
I knew there had to be LO's that had most improved player awards. I wonder if any of them used this to curb the sandbagging. Obviously, this wasn't a problem in your league.
League Guys - What Do You Think About This Idea?
- Thread starter BasementDweller
- Start date
10 years is pretty impressive. If I wore a hat I would take it off to you.
I knew there had to be LO's that had most improved player awards. I wonder if any of them used this to curb the sandbagging. Obviously, this wasn't a problem in your league.
we have a local league that pays each player a personal check of so many cents per ball, so the more you win the more money you get i figure thats the best a league cab do to fight sandbagging.
I agree. This is better than my idea. That's really cool.
I love that line! I going to steal it.
We had a cash league in town a few years ago. Each team consisted of an anchor (best player), a major, a high minor, and two low minors. Let's call it ABCDD for simplicity. The teams matched up A vs A, B vs B, etc. Winning percentages dictated whether a player was to stay at their level or go up or down. It made it a little easier to lock on to a player's ability level since they were playing their peers. Also, the matches were played from lowest level player up, with the A players always playing last. This prevented a team from sewing up the match and then getting their low number a loss to keep their handicap down. It also prevented teams from "throwing off" a really weak player on their opponent's strongest player. That league was pretty even all the way to the end and had around 80% payout at the end of each session. I'll take cash over a crappy room at the Riv any day. If it was still going today, I'd be playing in it rather than the bogus national leagues we have here now.
APA in phoenix also does top gun awards based on wins (i won one last session) and some people really strive for that...but those that sandbag, don't care about that award anyway
I like this top gun thing. My opinion of the APA has changed a bit from this thread. It sounds like it just boils down to the LO. If you have a good LO, the APA could be a lot of fun. However, it doesn't sound like too many of them pay out all that well (I know it's a business).
I like that format too. I like the idea of always getting to play against someone at a similar skill level. The A vs D thing would get old if you ask me. A common thread I'm noticing about a lot of these leagues that people have really liked is - they are no longer running! You have to give the big boys credit (APA, BCA, TAP, etc) for figuring out how to keep it going.
Not gonna hijack the thread around this point, but there are many APA areas that pay out "good" to "very good". In the context of league payouts. (Mine is one in the "good" category.) Just like there are many areas where they don't payout at all, or very little. It goes along hand in hand with the good LO, bad LO theory.
League shouldn't be about payouts. It should be about fun. Any payouts are a bonus, in my opinion.
The point of any league is to have fun and playing pool, and that's what the thread should be about. You've been keeping this thread in the right direction the whole time, congrats, Basement Dweller.
I played in APA a number of years, some of which I particapated on the Handicap Review Committee. Then there was a 5 year absence until a friend asked me to play. But when my captain placed 22 innings on the score sheet, when it was actually 2 innings, that was the beginning of the end.
The person keeping the score sheet should be at least a level 5 and preferably a level 6. This is in contrast to having a level 2 or level 3 capture match data. A less experienced player does not see intentional misses and safeties. So they are recorded as an inning and not a safe. Any shot not
They use a formula to generate a number. I think it is
(Innings - Safeties)/Wins = number
The higher the number, the lower your rating.
A guideline a team member used was based on 13 innings. No matter your level, if you are winning with or under 13 innings on a consistent basis, your level will be going up. Think of that. How boring must it be to miss 13 or more times a night. It is an enjoyment diminisher.
I recommend the captain keep significantly more data. Some specifics on shots made. Issues indicating superior knowledge or skill. Write it up, and send it along to the League Operator the following week. And campaign for yourself to be on the handicap review committee. Oh, and keep your data in a very visible notebook. I recommend red, so the other team will know in advance. I have had other captains say that they hated seeing my red book. Good!
I did this consistently for years, and when I brought up a name at the meeting, there was and 80% success rate in improving that persons rating.
Note that you can only address the worst cases, so prepare for them. Additionally I developed for personal use, Al's Blue Book of Ratings, where I kept what I thought was each person played nominal and my perceived ratings. This is very helpful during the year or next and in the tournament.
Recently, I passed my old and dated Blue Book to the New league operator. The main reason that I no longer play APA is handicapping. I told the LO that I could scope out players and indicate ratings if he could use the data. I received a short talk on re joining APA. Well a LO has to make a living.
I support recognition of the better players and those improving. Of course you can recognize someone without a significant cost. Personal recognition is something we all desire. That is unless we are making a living in pool.
As for sandbagging, it goes on outside of leagues. And the better you are at identifying the real level of your opponent, the less you will be paying at the end of the evening.
If you play in league, I recommend non handicapped leagues to improve your game. You can still play in APA, but strive for the high rating yourself which is an example for your team and your prestige.
The person keeping the score sheet should be at least a level 5 and preferably a level 6. This is in contrast to having a level 2 or level 3 capture match data. A less experienced player does not see intentional misses and safeties. So they are recorded as an inning and not a safe. Any shot not
They use a formula to generate a number. I think it is
(Innings - Safeties)/Wins = number
The higher the number, the lower your rating.
A guideline a team member used was based on 13 innings. No matter your level, if you are winning with or under 13 innings on a consistent basis, your level will be going up. Think of that. How boring must it be to miss 13 or more times a night. It is an enjoyment diminisher.
I recommend the captain keep significantly more data. Some specifics on shots made. Issues indicating superior knowledge or skill. Write it up, and send it along to the League Operator the following week. And campaign for yourself to be on the handicap review committee. Oh, and keep your data in a very visible notebook. I recommend red, so the other team will know in advance. I have had other captains say that they hated seeing my red book. Good!
I did this consistently for years, and when I brought up a name at the meeting, there was and 80% success rate in improving that persons rating.
Note that you can only address the worst cases, so prepare for them. Additionally I developed for personal use, Al's Blue Book of Ratings, where I kept what I thought was each person played nominal and my perceived ratings. This is very helpful during the year or next and in the tournament.
Recently, I passed my old and dated Blue Book to the New league operator. The main reason that I no longer play APA is handicapping. I told the LO that I could scope out players and indicate ratings if he could use the data. I received a short talk on re joining APA. Well a LO has to make a living.
I support recognition of the better players and those improving. Of course you can recognize someone without a significant cost. Personal recognition is something we all desire. That is unless we are making a living in pool.
As for sandbagging, it goes on outside of leagues. And the better you are at identifying the real level of your opponent, the less you will be paying at the end of the evening.
If you play in league, I recommend non handicapped leagues to improve your game. You can still play in APA, but strive for the high rating yourself which is an example for your team and your prestige.
Banks
Banned
Innings are separate from Defensive shots. They each have a separate place on the score sheet. If you went to the table 22 times, that's what the innings will be. I've been playing just over 6 years now and the score has been kept the same all that time. You are also suppose to let people know that you were doing a defensive shot, because many low skill players do not always recognize them.
After rereading, I'm taking it to mean that a 5+ should be the one keeping score so that they know which shots to mark up, etc. We all know that's not practical, which is why people need to say what they are doing. When they do not, then it is up to the scorekeeper to make the call(and I'd err on the side of marking it up).
I always told my teammates to win and never hold back.. I've missed playoffs, etc, by 1 win or a few 9b points, etc. If you practice losing, that's what you get better at. My goal was to always go up and to help others improve(hell, the more games you have to win, the more you get for your $$$). Even most of the sandbaggers I've met are no better than maybe half a skill level better than what the sheet shows. Why is that? Because they think they're so good when they blow off a shot, but the fact remains they may not have even run out anyways. In other words, SBers act like they were guaranteed the shot, which I'm sure we all know how that usually ends up. A few can actually do it, most are just full of (themselves).
Somebody recently told me that their captain doesn't want them to go up. I told them to play their best and that their captain can suck a...
Complaints about the handicaps are almost always directed toward the APA and almost certainly the passionate argument are.
In most other leagues like the BCA and VNEA it doesn't pay to sandbag. It will usually costs you or your team more than it is worth. In fact aggressive play is sometimes rewarded because of ball counts.
Well, you're correct I think. In BCAPL play even though each player carries a handicap, these are only used to handicap one team against the other. But all individual matches are played without handicaps. So if I'm say a "9" and my opponent is a "6" I'm not giving any weight to my opponent in my match against him - we are still playing even.
And again, the national tournament is played completely at scratch so there is no reason to try and bulk up your handicap for the big show because it doesn't even enter into it.
More of my opinion here:
It seems like one can concern themselves with payouts only when there are many league options to choose from. There's nothing wrong with using the payout amount as a way to compare two leagues.
Now, you think I have kept this thread in the right direction, but do you think I have shown improvement from the beginning of this thread to the end? I think my AZ Posting Handicap should be raised and I should be acknowledged for it. :grin:
WOW. That seems like a lot of work. I like crunching numbers and all but not quite that much. You do seem like the kind of guy I would want running a league though.
Our VNEA League also has this. We have a Vegas League and of course this one, called the Cash league. Everyone gets paid out at the end of the year on top of playoff tournament finishes.
It doesn't add up to much but you are right, it does put a stop to sandbagging.
I had served on the handicap review committee, so the issue of innings, safeties, ratings and sandbagging are known. I brought up a level 4 at a meeting and his rating was raised to a level 5. Later that year, he was playing like a level 6. He had been playing 2 levels below. There were several cases like this. I still have the records on my computer, and some of the shots that were made if that would be of any interest to the forum. Not likely.
Yes most sandbager are within one level of their real capability. But when I identified players, I noted those worst cases. Those more than one level above. That is why, my success rate was 80% at the meetings. I did not notice those nor much care if they were a level 5 and played like a level 5.5. No, I focused on 80% of the problem being caused by 20% of the bagers. That is those who were hiding much more than one level in their rating.
I said what I meant and what happened. I had two innings, being I sat down twice. It was a match starting at nearly midnight. I was impatient because their captains match took 90 minutes and my captain being diabetic was not going to be last. So I had the honor. I play safties well and normally on a few shots I would normally played safe, but I was in no mood. So I extended myself and played over my head.
Two innings and 10 minutes later it was midnight and I was in my car. My opponent was much better, but he did have a chance, but not much of one. Two innings, for which I said to the captain before leaving. "I will be a 6 in the morning."
It is always practical to have someone who knows and can identify all play properly to be recording the shots. A level 3 just doesn't have the skill level. And if it is common, which it is, to have low level players keeping score, then sandbagging will be prevalent. The player keeping score should sign a box for that match along with their rating, so the LO will be advised.
I agree that sandbagging hurts your game. It also hurts the league by rewarding poor behavior while playing well is penalized. That is why, it is easier for me to play in stronger leagues without handicap.
It was work. I was a retired engineer and thought I could impact the league. To an extent I did. It was not so much of number crunching, but rather capturing exceptional play and accurately recording the match.
Seeing the problem survive for a chance at the Vegas trip, was beyond my capability. I promoted this, and have talked to the new LO about these concepts even though it has been many years since my APA involvement. I like the sport and know that cheating is hurting pool.
Perhaps there is another way to control this better that escapes me. Simple solutions are best.
I was not the LO, but I acted like I was. My thought is you can't complain unless you are willing to work.
Unfortunately, the only league play available in the area is APA. Every night, I see people sandbagging 1 or 2 levels below their ability. It is comforting to know that it isn't the norm in other leagues. I had gotten to the point, where I figured it was just normal in all pool communities, to have a certain percentage of "hustlers". In their defense, there is a certain amount of glamor attached to being a hustler. APA in this area, attracts some hustlers, who also are money players, but for the most part, they are guys who only have the league to abuse, because they are small time Charlies. I decided a long time ago, the best way to fight it on an individual basis, was to be good enough as a player, to win anyway, in spite of the odds. Not always an easy thing to do. Paying a bonus for balls made seems like the best idea I have heard yet. The system as it stands now, has lost a lot of good players, because they hated the sandbagging that came with the league.