League Guys - What Do You Think About This Idea?

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BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't play in leagues but I read an awful lot about them on this forum. One of the biggest complaints I read about is the sandbagging that seems to be prevalent in these leagues. So I was thinking about this today and I was wondering if there are any leagues that pay out for Most Improved Player(s)? I would think having this little carrot out there would maybe be enough incentive to clean up some of the sandbagging. Of course you would have to have more clearly defined handicaps. So using the APA example of ratings of 2-7 you could just add a decimal place to the rating. You would still only use the whole number (e.g. 3,5,7) to calculate the handicap but you could use the decimal number to track overall improvement. So someone could start the session at a 2.0 and finish at a 4.3 and win the most improved player award and a few buckaroos. Maybe pay out the top 10 most improved.

Something has always bothered me about a league system that doesn't encourage and acknowledge improvement.

Any thoughts?
 
The Equalizer Handicap System already uses decimal points in their system. As a player, you just don't see them on the scoresheets...but they are figured into the software program.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
I think that McDonald's's's food should be more healthy.

I think that mass-produced bean burritos should cost less than a dollar.

I think that a lobster tail should not cost more than a lobster.

I think that $5 for a beer at a game is outrageous.

I think after being a customer for a while, that my cable bill should go down, not up.

So.. it is what it is. As long as people keep paying for it, there will be a supply. Market say, market do.

Most improved? Somebody is bound to do(or complain about) the dreaded sandbagging so that they can make a buck.
 
I know little if anything re the APA, BCA handicap system but if you check out League Central, thats what our LO uses.

Click on any pool league and check what they call the Leader Board in any division. For example, they list the top ten players from Power Averages,
Season Highs (points), Win Zips, Consecutive Wins, etc.

Is this like something you were thinking about regarding how you would keep track of the most improved players?

It seems to work pretty decent for us.
We don't get rewards for any of it but at the beginning of the season the LO made a deal with us. We pretty much get 100% payouts from league fees etc and he keeps the plug money from the tables. After all, the tables do belong to him. And the strange thing is, this LO also owns another main business. He actually takes money out of his other business if need be to make his League work. The league also pays for Vegas and Edmonton Westerns in every division as well.
Is that a great LO or what?

Playoffs at the end of the year, every team that plays gets something no matter where you place.
 
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Banks said:
I think that McDonald's's's food should be more healthy.

I think that mass-produced bean burritos should cost less than a dollar.

I think that a lobster tail should not cost more than a lobster.

I think that $5 for a beer at a game is outrageous.

I think after being a customer for a while, that my cable bill should go down, not up.

So.. it is what it is. As long as people keep paying for it, there will be a supply. Market say, market do.

Most improved? Somebody is bound to do(or complain about) the dreaded sandbagging so that they can make a buck.
Click to expand...

So I'll put you down for "In Favor Of the Most Improved Player Award".
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
I know little if anything re the APA, BCA handicap system but if you check out League Central, thats what our LO uses.

Click on any pool league and check what they call the Leader Board in any division. For example, they list the top ten players from Power Averages,
Season Highs (points), Win Zips, Consecutive Wins, etc.

Is this like something you were thinking about regarding how you would keep track of the most improved players?

It seems to work pretty decent for us.
We don't get rewards for any of it but at the beginning of the season the LO made a deal with us. We pretty much get 100% payouts from league fees etc and he keeps the plug money from the tables. After all, the tables do belong to him. And the strange thing is, this LO also owns another main business. He actually takes money out of his other business if need be to make his League work. The league also pays for Vegas and Edmonton Westerns in every division as well.
Is that a great LO or what?

Playoffs at the end of the year, every team that plays gets something no matter where you place.
Click to expand...


I probably would have been better off leaving the APA out of this. I was just thinking about any league that struggles with sandbagging. Just another little incentive for the players. Sounds like you found yourself a great league with a great LO.
 
I'm no expert in this whole league sandbagging thing but I would think it is more an issue in APA than the BCAPL. The reason I say this is simply because in the BCA league any team can go to the National tournament and it is played without handicaps. I play in a BCAPL 8 Ball league and I haven't seen any obvious dumping. The money at the end of the regular league season is nothing worth not enjoying the season playing your best over.
 
BasementDweller said:
So I'll put you down for "In Favor Of the Most Improved Player Award".
Click to expand...

That's a relative term.

Is somebody 4 times as good if they run 4 balls instead of 1? Is that a greater improvement than somebody who runs 2 racks instead of 1? I've always had a bit of a time with the idea of most improved, since going from 0mph to 1mph can be considered a larger jump than from 1mph to 5mph. That, and maybe I'm biased since I never got and will never be considered for the APA Most Improved award. :thumbup:
 
In our division, there is only one captain that dicks around.
He shouldn't be playing in ours anyway as he also plays BCA Modified Intermediate, one other player is an intermediate and he often
stacks his team with spares that play in higher divisions. The LO knows all about it and hes just biding his time. I think he has a surprise
for this bagger at the end of the year.

We played his team Tues night and he only won 1 out of 4.
He comes over to our table after and announces that he successfully brought his average down from a 9 handicap to an 8.
As if telling us that he purposely lost 3 games that evening in order to achieve it. He got his butt handed to him, plain and simple.

We had a good laugh. We're not laughing with you Richard, just at you, clown.
 
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Our APA area has a Top Gun award every session, for every division. And in our area, they have a Best of The Best cash tournament, which the top 20 finishers in each division get invited to play in. Kinda works in a similar fashion to your MVP or Most Improved idea... I find it a reward to be included in that group. There are plenty of players MUCH better than me that don't make that list every session, when they have a run where they lose too often. There is some pride in that, to me and to many of the players in our area.

Yes, there is one player here who usually wins Top Gun, if he plays that session. I find it fun to try and get ito the top 20. I finished second to the hot shot (in winning percentage) last summer, that was pretty cool.

To me, sandbagging seems like far to much work for far too little chance of reward. Your team has to make it's session playoffs, then win, to go to states/cities/whatever. Then you have to make it through all that to go to Vegas. There is no guarantee you'll get through either of those first two levels to even get the chance to go to Vegas. I'd much rather try and win, personally.
 
Banks said:
That's a relative term.

Is somebody 4 times as good if they run 4 balls instead of 1? Is that a greater improvement than somebody who runs 2 racks instead of 1? I've always had a bit of a time with the idea of most improved, since going from 0mph to 1mph can be considered a larger jump than from 1mph to 5mph. That, and maybe I'm biased since I never got and will never be considered for the APA Most Improved award. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Now that's a good point. I do think that it's obviously easier to improve at the earlier stages of one's career. Sort of like it's easier to lose the first few pounds than it is to lose the last few. Or at least it's easier to see this improvement and quantify it (at pool). So the most improved player award WOULD necessarily be aimmed at the lower and middle tiered players since they have the most room for "improvement".
 
justadub said:
Our APA area has a Top Gun award every session, for every division. And in our area, they have a Best of The Best cash tournament, which the top 20 finishers in each division get invited to play in. Kinda works in a similar fashion to your MVP or Most Improved idea... I find it a reward to be included in that group. There are plenty of players MUCH better than me that don't make that list every session, when they have a run where they lose too often. There is some pride in that, to me and to many of the players in our area.

Yes, there is one player here who usually wins Top Gun, if he plays that session. I find it fun to try and get ito the top 20. I finished second to the hot shot (in winning percentage) last summer, that was pretty cool.

To me, sandbagging seems like far to much work for far too little chance of reward. Your team has to make it's session playoffs, then win, to go to states/cities/whatever. Then you have to make it through all that to go to Vegas. There is no guarantee you'll get through either of those first two levels to even get the chance to go to Vegas. I'd much rather try and win, personally.
Click to expand...

This is awesome! Why don't we hear more about these types of leagues on this forum? This is something I would be interested in playing in. To me, it would really seem hollow if I won some "free" trip to, ah, I don't know, let's say Las Vegas, but I couldn't even say that I was seeing any improvement in my game.

Sounds like another great league with another great LO.
 
BasementDweller said:
I don't play in leagues but I read an awful lot about them on this forum. One of the biggest complaints I read about is the sandbagging that seems to be prevalent in these leagues. So I was thinking about this today and I was wondering if there are any leagues that pay out for Most Improved Player(s)? I would think having this little carrot out there would maybe be enough incentive to clean up some of the sandbagging. Of course you would have to have more clearly defined handicaps. So using the APA example of ratings of 2-7 you could just add a decimal place to the rating. You would still only use the whole number (e.g. 3,5,7) to calculate the handicap but you could use the decimal number to track overall improvement. So someone could start the session at a 2.0 and finish at a 4.3 and win the most improved player award and a few buckaroos. Maybe pay out the top 10 most improved.

Something has always bothered me about a league system that doesn't encourage and acknowledge improvement.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Nothing kills a player's game like telling them how close they are to going up...

At least for SOME players.
 
Your always going to have sandbagging in any league whether its apa bca or tap and if you dont like it then go play in some pro tournaments if you want fair play.
 
APA Operator said:
Nothing kills a player's game like telling them how close they are to going up...

At least for SOME players.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you're right. That's the sad part. I just don't see the fun in giving it less than your best effort. I'm sure even for these players that are on the bubble if there was some financial incentive to play their best they wouldn't mind going up. Of course I realize if it was a ridiculous amount of money than no sane LO would consider doing this. I know I wouldn't but I would consider an amount of money that would make these guys at least scratch their head and say "you know self, if I actually when the rest of my matches tongiht I could end up as 1 of the most improved players......oh what are you saying.......shut-up your talking to yourself, now just miscue on purpose and lose and forget you ever thought about that!".
 
In the 8-ball league that I ran for ~10 years, we had two categories of Most Improved. One was restricted to players in their 2nd session (since it's easier to show improvement with only one other session under your belt). The other was open to all other players. Our system was based on winning percentage improvement over the player's baseline.

We did not handicap our league... except for on a team basis. Each team had four players... an A, a B, a C and a D player... based on their cumulative winning percentage in our league. A new player to the league was assigned an initial rating after playing a number of games with existing members and the existing members discuss and agree on the new person's starting rating (A/B/C/D).

The teams were formed by blind draw. The only exception was if spouses or siblings, or close friends, wanted to play together, the total league voted on those proposals and a simple majority ruled. The league never allowed two A players to play together on the same team.

Each night of league play, each player shoots one game of 8-ball against the A, the B, the C and the D player from the other team.

Players who are D players one session can become a C player the next session if they shoot well... and vice versa.

Since we did not handicap individual players there was no sandbagging in our league.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
I'm no expert in this whole league sandbagging thing but I would think it is more an issue in APA than the BCAPL. The reason I say this is simply because in the BCA league any team can go to the National tournament and it is played without handicaps. I play in a BCAPL 8 Ball league and I haven't seen any obvious dumping. The money at the end of the regular league season is nothing worth not enjoying the season playing your best over.
Click to expand...

Seems like most of the opinions I've read on here about the BCAPL are similar to yours. Sounds like a good league overall. If my life can slow down just a wee bit more I may look for this one in my area.
 
labatt ice rod said:
Your always going to have sandbagging in any league whether its apa bca or tap and if you dont like it then go play in some pro tournaments if you want fair play.
Click to expand...

We will always have crime too. You can use both punishments and rewards when trying to fight it. Surely there has to be something in between playing in a sandbagging league and playing in a pro tournament. ;)
 
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