"League Players LOL"

bankshot76

I got a skinny shaft!
Silver Member
I'm not really sure what this meant exactly but I saw it under another members profile. But, I've notice alot of animocity toward leagues in other post and I don't really understand it. Here in Louisville, not all, but the majority of the stonger players play in some form of a league whether it be cash, APA, BCA, etc. I'm sure nationwide it's not the same but I've heard some slams toward the league's and I just wasn't real sure what the problems would be, it seems to me like the league do alot for our sport's economy. I would have to say that if it wasn't for league's most of the people in them wouldn't even play at all. So, all in all my main question is what's your beef with them and if your for them let here that too.
 
There's a little pool snobbery going on, that's all. There are some valid complaints about most leagues, but that's true of any organization known to man.

Instead, all those noobs should be paying their dues by gambling on games they can't win.
 
PKM said:
There's a little pool snobbery going on, that's all. There are some valid complaints about most leagues, but that's true of any organization known to man.

Instead, all those noobs should be paying their dues by gambling on games they can't win.[/QUOTE]


That's where the hammer meets the nail...:thumbup: :thumbup:


:cool:
 
bankshot76 said:
I'm not really sure what this meant exactly but I saw it under another members profile. But, I've notice alot of animocity toward leagues in other post and I don't really understand it. Here in Louisville, not all, but the majority of the stonger players play in some form of a league whether it be cash, APA, BCA, etc. I'm sure nationwide it's not the same but I've heard some slams toward the league's and I just wasn't real sure what the problems would be, it seems to me like the league do alot for our sport's economy. I would have to say that if it wasn't for league's most of the people in them wouldn't even play at all. So, all in all my main question is what's your beef with them and if your for them let here that too.
Some players insist that league players are a bunch of drunken bar box bangers. Fortunately, that is not true of all league players. For example, I play in a couple of leagues and both are in a non-alcohol serving pool room using 9' Diamonds and Gold Crowns.

The bottom line is, if it weren't for leagues, you would see a lot more pool rooms closing. They provide enough income to open the doors and turn on the lights. Instead of slaming league players, these so called "stronger players" should thank the leagues for keeping their local rooms going.
 
Rich R. said:
The bottom line is, if it weren't for leagues, you would see a lot more pool rooms closing. They provide enough income to open the doors and turn on the lights. Instead of slaming league players, these so called "stronger players" should thank the leagues for keeping their local rooms going.

Well said! Whether we personally enjoy playing in leagues or not, we should all be appreciative of what leagues do for the pool community. Those leagues that many players look down on, provide the places where we all can play.

Steve
 
My only problem with some leagues is that the players get nothing back for all the money spent to play in the league. In 2 leagues I play in here in Lebanon Pa all the money goes back to the shooters. Also you can put the best team you can find together and there is no penalty for this.
Also we give a player running the table $20 and 8 Ball Break $10.
 
I would guess that for a lot of players who went on to become serious tournament players, they honed some of their early skills and knowledge in leagues. I know I did, but then again, in Australian leagues we didn't have a handicap system, so there wasn't a disincentive to improving one's game.

Even though, 98% of league players here never really practiced seriously for any significant length of time.

Some would rather think they're good playing lower divisions than to really test themselves. Others are just having a bit of fun hoping to get the rolls, so good on 'em.

Colin
 
League Players LOL

To some extent I do agree with you all about the leagues just trying to make money, but as far as being penalized for becoming better players I don't look at it as that as much as a reward for your efforts. The handicap systems are exactly what they are,a means for the weaker players to have a fair shot at a win against more accomplished players. Say I played a relatively new player, and I break and run an average of 2-3 times every 10 games I play. How would it be fair to race to a set # of balls or games if they have virtually no chance at all of winning? They'd Quit! It's a form of entertainment no different than going to the movies for alot of people. But at the same time my point was that Leagues are good for our sports economy and the rooms that we play in. Strong non-league players that come to the pool rooms to gamble don't spend much money, sometimes alot of money changes hands but the pool hall see's maybe 20 dollars. Who do you think the vendors at the US open, Derby City, and etc. are focusing on? The Pro's get their cues for free, and the majority of your stronger players already have their rigs set up, it's for the freaking league players that come to watch the pro's!
 
bankshot76 said:
To some extent I do agree with you all about the leagues just trying to make money, but as far as being penalized for becoming better players I don't look at it as that as much as a reward for your efforts. The handicap systems are exactly what they are,a means for the weaker players to have a fair shot at a win against more accomplished players. Say I played a relatively new player, and I break and run an average of 2-3 times every 10 games I play. How would it be fair to race to a set # of balls or games if they have virtually no chance at all of winning? They'd Quit! It's a form of entertainment no different than going to the movies for alot of people. But at the same time my point was that Leagues are good for our sports economy and the rooms that we play in. Strong non-league players that come to the pool rooms to gamble don't spend much money, sometimes alot of money changes hands but the pool hall see's maybe 20 dollars. Who do you think the vendors at the US open, Derby City, and etc. are focusing on? The Pro's get their cues for free, and the majority of your stronger players already have their rigs set up, it's for the freaking league players that come to watch the pro's!

I don't know but I have been playing against the same teams for over 20 years and it seams that most of them place the same from year to year.
They know when they play certain players their chances of winning are slim. I do know if it was me loosing all the time I would do something to improve my game as I did when I was growing up and getting beat by better players. I think most players playing in any league are in it for the night out and not so much for the competition. As you probably know that almost in any league the teams on the top are always on the top. At least in our league you can make $20 or $10 any week for running a table or making an 8 Ball break.
Ron
 
I've been playing pool for 15 years and started playing pool in leagues and have been playing in leagues ever since and still play in leagues. I went from a social player to a seriously competitive player and I would have never got here if I didn't start out in league.

League is where most beginners learn to play. If it weren't for league, I wouldn't have become as interested in the game because at my skill level at the time, I had no idea about tournaments, gambling or anything. I just knew pool league. Then after a couple of years in league, you hear other people talking about other leagues, tournaments, watch people gambling, etc, and you get into that. I heard about a women's tournament coming to my city from someone in my league and decided to play in it. I didn't do well, but I decided I liked tournaments and playing with other women, so I improved my game.

I joined a women's team, where I'm pretty sure all the women started playing pool in a league and we won the BCA Nationals Women's Open Team event and have placed 2nd. I am a regular tour member of the OB Cue Tour (formerly Hunter Tour) and majority of the women on this tour (even the top players) began playing pool in a league.

If you don't like the way your league is run, then don't play or create a league of your own. League isn't for everyone, but league is for a lot of players. The fact of the matter is, a lot of pool players start off in league, and not everyone sticks with it, but the few that do/did have become some of the best players that they can be who would not have had any other avenues to learn their craft otherwise.
 
who are the leagues really for

I for one have seen what really is returned to the players & playing places & what the operators get. In MD i seen one such case(no names mentioned) where a operator that didnt have 2 nickels to rub together go to a home few will ever dream of,an airplane,ect. all from operating a leauge. i dont slight the guy one bit but i do question just what is given back to the players less a trip to vegas with matches so jumbled up that they dont have ample time to enjoy the trip & see the sites.After talking to many many of these players the 1 thing stands out & that is its a place to get together with friends & get a night out,& i say back to them, figure what it costs you for a night out once a week with friends at the hall or bar & tell me the savings you come up with & why would you give that savings to someone to tell you where your going to play & when & at the end add it all up & tell me if your savings wouldnt get you a 3-4 week in vegas doing what you & the family want to do & see & not being tethered to a certin hotel & time restraints,this is jmho & i know its a buisness but come on guys,give some of the wealth back to the players that make it all possible for leauges to flourish. Like i said, this is just my opinon.
 
obviously all leagues aren't the same

I don't like leagues. The only ones I see are the local ones who tend to be loud, obnoxious, and disruptive. Aside from that, league players seem to all need three cigarettes going at once to be able to play. I see them light a cigarette and place it in a ashtray just in case they want to take a drag off of it later, After that one burns down, they light another. They may literally have multiples going. Even with smoke eaters the level of cigarette smoke in my local halls goes up dramatically when the league players arrive. Being allergic to cigarette smoke I usually pack my stuff up and leave when they show up.

No question that the league people bring in more money than the business lost during the same time frame but I don't know if the overall tendency to avoid places where you have had an unpleasant experience doesn't harm the pool halls more than they realize.

Were my experience with leagues in a smoke free room I might have a better opinion of them. I still wouldn't play in one myself because I go to a pool room to play pool, not stand around socializing. Here though it is truly different strokes for different folks. As has already been mentioned by others, pool is often secondary to the league players. They could as easily be bowling or playing darts, the pool is just the framework for the weekly get together.

Hu
 
I pretty much agree with Neil and ShootingArts. Personally, it's the behavior and casual attitude of league players that gets me. And, I agree, there is very little incentive to get any better, and I've heard many say "Why would I want to get any better? They'd just raise my handicap!". I saw a guy smacking his wife around in the parking lot one night because she lost a match in the city championship, and that's just one example. The majority of league players know nothing of etiquette at or away from the table, and when someone tries to teach them, they don't want to hear it. They don't want to play by any other rules. They have little respect for the game itself or the other people who play it. I know a lot of local people who have given up on apa because they just couldn't stand the bullshit any more. Sandbagging, downright cheating, different operators doing things different, the list goes on and on. I know there are people who aren't like those described above, but we've all seen too much of the crap.
 
Neil said:
I don't know if you are referring to me or not. But I am one of those down on leagues. Let me start by saying that if you are for leagues and like that kind of pool, more power to you. What really gets me going is when people say that leagues are good for pool. THEY AREN'T! They are good for the bars and poolrooms that serve alcohol, and not much more than that.

Do some good players play? Sure. It's a nice ego boost to be known as a player around a bunch of lower handicaps. Who doesn't like that kind of attention?

But lets look at some points here. How much do you play in your league? 4-5 games tops. And how long are you there? About 4-5 hours? And that is called getting people to play pool? No, that's called getting bodies in the room. 90% of those league players ONLY play on league night. They aren't really trying to get better. After all, if they get better, their handicap gets raised, then their team gets busted up. Don't want that to happen! So keep the handicaps down. There's no reward to practice during the week. To get better. To actually become a pool player. It's actually discouraged!

Now, I will give you this- they are good for the cue dealers and 'gotta have this new item' dealers. They are probably the bulk of their sales. On the other hand, they are the bain of the poolrooms. Very, very seldom wil you see a league player actually in a pool room practicing or playing . It does happen, but rarely. The percentage is amazingly low. When the leagues should be promoting pool, and getting people to practice and involved in the game.

Leagues have their place, but they could and should be doing much, much more to promote the actual game. Not discouraging it. It should be a stepping stone to better things, and for the most part, it's not. Sure, the occasional person will take to the game, and progress farther. But that is the exception, and it should be the rule.

And, no, I don't have the answers to 'fix' it. I have some, but they have been mentioned on here many times. It just irks me that so many think league pool is actually what pool is about. It's only a shadow of real pool IMHO.
Neil:

First, accolades to you for such a well-written and courageous post! Your thoughts come across loud and clear, and you use good analogies. I found myself nodding in acknowledgment at various times while reading your post.

I have to agree with you on all points, except for one seemingly minor detail. All your points are targeted at (and only apply to) one particular league -- the APA. (Granted, this is the largest league in North America, but saying "league = APA" is like saying "Internet = AOL." [Don't laugh -- in the days before broadband Internet access, a couple of family friends/acquaintances who'd asked me for my email address to stay in touch, noticed it didn't have the domain name "aol.com" and asked me the quite hilarious question, "oh, you're not online?" or the even more hilarious variant, "oh, you don't have Internet access?" Grrrr!] But I digress...)

I won't get into specifics, but I happen to run a league that is not afiliated with the APA whatsoever, yet the lion's share of its members are ex-APA. Only one member that I know of is ex-BCA, and that is because he was thrown out of the BCA for, at the time, he'd been trying to use APA mentality (e.g. sandbagging, intentionally playing within his handicap, or just in general playing games with the handicapping system to exploit it) and he got caught. He's coming dangerously close to being thrown out of my league as well, for even though he doesn't appear to mean it intentionally or exploitingly, he appears to not be capable of shaking the that APA school of thought. Once in a while when I do my rounds around the tables to observe the matches (as all good league operators should, IMHO), I overhear him saying things related to his captain or his teammates related to matching-up player so-and-so against a certain opponent, because he feels player so-and-so can't beat that particular opponent and his/her defeat would be "good for the team, because his/her handicap won't get raised." The captain of his team is a good guy, and when this player makes this mistake (seemingly he can't help it -- again, that APA mentality seems to be an ingrained school of thought), the captain jumps all over him. If that captain doesn't, I certainly do!

As far as I know, only the APA forcibly busts-up teams when the total handicap value of all players on that team exceeds a certain value. Other leagues don't do that. Either they'll impose a restriction whereby you can't play, say, two or more 7- or 8-handicap players in the same match, or, like my league, if your team chooses to do so, a certain percentage of your opposing team's ball count is lost. (In my league [8-ball, by the way], there are five matches per team match up; four of which are played by players, the fifth of which is a "ball count" match. Meaning, after all four matches are played, the ball count [opponent's balls still left on the table after the 8-ball is successfully pocketed] for every rack of each player is tallied, and the team with the least total ball count against them "wins" that fifth match. This was one of the many things that were introduced in my league to minimize sandbagging, but rather, to encourage a player to play to his/her ability, not his/her handicap, because the *team* is going to pay the price.)

One thing my league does as reward for someone sweeping their opponent, or a break and run, is to give them "free hour of pool" access cards that they can use at any time. Not cash. This is a reward to encourage practice, not drink or party. And you know what? It goes over quite well. Players will run up to me when I'm making my rounds, telling me how'd they'd just executed a break-and-run, or just swept his/her opponent, asking me for a free-hour-of-pool access card.

Also, in my league, not all of the tables (9-foot GCIIIs, btw) are earmarked for league use. It's encouraged for league players, when they're not in a match, to take a table out amongst themselves (at special league discounts) and practice. Many of them do. These special league discounts are available to them not only during league nights, but at all times -- every day of the week, at any time -- all the player has to do is show his/her league card. I can walk in there any evening on a non-league night, and I'm certainly to find familiar faces in there, practicing.

We have a banquet at the end of every session/playoff, where the prizes are awarded, and this is the only time of the session for "cash time." The top performing teams are awarded trophies and prize monies, and the top performing player -- the player that has the best win/loss ratio -- is awarded a "Top Gun" plaque and cash prize. The theme of the whole banquet *drips* with the message to become a better player. And most players take this message to heart. Sure, as with any league that is made up of different personalities and people from all walks of life, you encounter the whiners and complainers, or people trying to exploit the system, but they are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Point is, not all leagues can (or should) be painted with that APA brush. There are a lot of good leagues out there, with their hearts in the right places, and turn out some really fine players. And yes, the establishment benefits because it's predictable guaranteed business (you can't fault them for that -- they're business people).

I hope this is helpful insight!
-Sean
 
sounds impressive!

Sean,

That sounds like a very nicely ran league. If the leagues I encounter were more focused on playing pool I am sure that I would be more impressed with them.

Hu


sfleinen said:
Neil:

First, accolades to you for such a well-written and courageous post! Your thoughts come across loud and clear, and you use good analogies. I found myself nodding in acknowledgment at various times while reading your post.

I have to agree with you on all points, except for one seemingly minor detail. All your points are targeted at (and only apply to) one particular league -- the APA. (Granted, this is the largest league in North America, but saying "league = APA" is like saying "Internet = AOL." [Don't laugh -- in the days before broadband Internet access, a couple of family friends/acquaintances who'd asked me for my email address to stay in touch, noticed it didn't have the domain name "aol.com" and asked me the quite hilarious question, "oh, you're not online?" or the even more hilarious variant, "oh, you don't have Internet access?" Grrrr!] But I digress...)

I won't get into specifics, but I happen to run a league that is not afiliated with the APA whatsoever, yet the lion's share of its members are ex-APA. Only one member that I know of is ex-BCA, and that is because he was thrown out of the BCA for, at the time, he'd been trying to use APA mentality (e.g. sandbagging, intentionally playing within his handicap, or just in general playing games with the handicapping system to exploit it) and he got caught. He's coming dangerously close to being thrown out of my league as well, for even though he doesn't appear to mean it intentionally or exploitingly, he appears to not be capable of shaking the that APA school of thought. Once in a while when I do my rounds around the tables to observe the matches (as all good league operators should, IMHO), I overhear him saying things related to his captain or his teammates related to matching-up player so-and-so against a certain opponent, because he feels player so-and-so can't beat that particular opponent and his/her defeat would be "good for the team, because his/her handicap won't get raised." The captain of his team is a good guy, and when this player makes this mistake (seemingly he can't help it -- again, that APA mentality seems to be an ingrained school of thought), the captain jumps all over him. If that captain doesn't, I certainly do!

As far as I know, only the APA forcibly busts-up teams when the total handicap value of all players on that team exceeds a certain value. Other leagues don't do that. Either they'll impose a restriction whereby you can't play, say, two or more 7- or 8-handicap players in the same match, or, like my league, if your team chooses to do so, a certain percentage of your opposing team's ball count is lost. (In my league [8-ball, by the way], there are five matches per team match up; four of which are played by players, the fifth of which is a "ball count" match. Meaning, after all four matches are played, the ball count [opponent's balls still left on the table after the 8-ball is successfully pocketed] for every rack of each player is tallied, and the team with the least total ball count against them "wins" that fifth match. This was one of the many things that were introduced in my league to minimize sandbagging, but rather, to encourage a player to play to his/her ability, not his/her handicap, because the *team* is going to pay the price.)

One thing my league does as reward for someone sweeping their opponent, or a break and run, is to give them "free hour of pool" access cards that they can use at any time. Not cash. This is a reward to encourage practice, not drink or party. And you know what? It goes over quite well. Players will run up to me when I'm making my rounds, telling me how'd they'd just executed a break-and-run, or just swept his/her opponent, asking me for a free-hour-of-pool access card.

Also, in my league, not all of the tables (9-foot GCIIIs, btw) are earmarked for league use. It's encouraged for league players, when they're not in a match, to take a table out amongst themselves (at special league discounts) and practice. Many of them do. These special league discounts are available to them not only during league nights, but at all times -- every day of the week, at any time -- all the player has to do is show his/her league card. I can walk in there any evening on a non-league night, and I'm certainly to find familiar faces in there, practicing.

We have a banquet at the end of every session/playoff, where the prizes are awarded, and this is the only time of the session for "cash time." The top performing teams are awarded trophies and prize monies, and the top performing player -- the player that has the best win/loss ratio -- is awarded a "Top Gun" plaque and cash prize. The theme of the whole banquet *drips* with the message to become a better player. And most players take this message to heart. Sure, as with any league that is made up of different personalities and people from all walks of life, you encounter the whiners and complainers, or people trying to exploit the system, but they are dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Point is, not all leagues can (or should) be painted with that APA brush. There are a lot of good leagues out there, with their hearts in the right places, and turn out some really fine players. And yes, the establishment benefits because it's predictable guaranteed business (you can't fault them for that -- they're business people).

I hope this is helpful insight!
-Sean
 
I personal do not see the attraction to league play, as I personally do not wish to be in a certain place, at a certain time, for a certain number of weeks. I like to be able to pick and choose when and where I play, or if I fell like going out and playing on any given night of the week. If I want all that structure in my life I would have made the military a career.
 
Leagues can be fun as long as you don't take it too seriously. Unfortunately there are a few people who act like their life depends on winning a game in a league.

I signed up for a league and they put me on the worst team. I was the best player on the last place team and my own teammates would shark me during the matches. I enjoyed it and would do it again.
 
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