Learning the angles for position play.

R

recanizegame

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey guys, I was lucky enough to get my hands on an old 8 footer that I've got setup at the house now and really have some time to work on a lot of different aspects of my game.

What better place to post than right here, this is probably bar none the one stop for all pool instruction/suggestions/drills. I don't have good players that live around me or any pool halls beyond 2 hours driving distance living in a rural town, I've gotten this table and feel it will really help me learn a solid foundation, so I can stop just getting by.

I have no problem with the shot making aspect but just can get the angles down. I'm sure my number one problem is not being able to "read" the diamonds on all my shots, I know they are there for a reason but I find myself becoming lost when trying to really plan a tedious position shot. I do find getting in the vicinity but just not where it really needs to be.

I'm not great at conveying my thoughts through text, so sorry for the rambling or sentence fragments, I'm trying to get better. I'm just trying to learn the angles. I do better through hands on experience so if there is any drills/diagrams that I could setup at my home table I would be really thankful. If I can figure the diamonds out I feel I will be well on my way..

I remember the Kicking Academy, as I'm typing this and hope I can find it on my harddrive again. I remember it had a lot of information about the diamonds, that I felt was just to advanced for me when I was concentrating on my shot making. Thanks guys.
 
The best advice IMO is to get the video and DVD of Robert Byrne Pool & Billiards Volumes 1 and 2.


Forget the diamonds if you are playing position off your object ball, it has far more what to do with tangent lines and where on the vertical axis of the cue ball you are hitting.

Honestly, do yourself a great favor and watch these videos. Your questions will be answered and the descriptions and diagrams are EXCELLENT.
 
First Things First

A ball bounces off the rail at about the same angle with which it came into the rail. To predict the angle at which the CB goes into the rail, you need to predict the angle it will take when it caroms off the object ball.

The CB always caroms off the OB directly along the "tangent line", which is 90 degrees from the path the OB will take. What happens next depends on what kind of vertical spin is on the CB when it hits the OB. There are three possibilities:

1. If the CB has forward spin (rolling) when it hits the OB, it curves forward of the tangent line very quickly (within a few inches of OB).

2. If the CB has reverse spin (draw) when it hits the OB, it curves back from the tangent line, toward the shooter, very quickly (within a few inches of OB).

3. If the CB is sliding, with no forward or reverse spin, when it hits the OB, it stays on tangent line.

How sharply forward or back the CB curves off the tangent line (with forward or reverse spin) depends on the cut angle, the CB's speed and the amount of spin on the CB. Practice to get a feel for it.

pj
chgo
 
recanizegame said:
.... but I find myself becoming lost when trying to really plan a tedious position shot. I do find getting in the vicinity but just not where it really needs to be.
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I would suggest getting The Pro Book by Bob Henning and/or 99 Critical Shots by Ray martin. Thes book illustrate a lovely selection of standard shots that come up all the time in many games. These can be learned by yourself on your table, and will apply immediately in competition. After learning some of these shots you will more easily see the routes around the table and know how to adjust them to suit a given situation. They will also teach you something very important, the limits to these various routes so you won't try something that just can't work.

Good luck, practice often, and pay close attention when you do.

Dave
 
Billiards

1) Play straight rail billiards as much as you can. In straight rail you can also use 1,2,3, or more rails to score a point. This will teach you natural tangent and also how to redirect the natural tangent thru stroke, speed, and english applied. Redirection of natural tangent is major in position play.
2) Learn triangle or pyramid zone position play. It is very easy to understand. ( simple )
Add these two items to your game and you will move up quite a bit.
3) Add insurance position and insurance pockets and your game will jump up even more.
All key to running balls and stringing racks.
Position is pool, everyone is a shot maker.
Balls 1-15 are something you mess around with while you play pool with the cue ball. Good Luck
 
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a good start would be Bert Kinisters 60min workout. that video is full of great 9ball information. staying on the proper side of the first ball to get to the next ball is key. start out with three balls and break them. take ball in hand. plan your run out. figure out which side of each ball you need to be on to make you run out easier. always think at least three balls ahead. when you master three balls move to four and work your way up.
 
sjm said:
In post #7 in this thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=16353 I present a drill that I really like for developing your command of the position play angles.

Another great drill that is excellent for developing your position play angles is the "wagon wheel" drill presented by Aaron S in post #18 of the following thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81536

Practice these two drills and you'll improve your command of the angles off the object ball.
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I like both of these drills (they're versions of the same thing). With either one you can adjust the difficulty by moving the object ball closer to or farther from the pocket, which gives more or less variation in the cut angles you can achieve by cheating the pocket. You can also choose to allow the cue ball to contact a rail before the target ball or not. The one into the side pocket also allows you to practice with either left or right cuts, which many players have different degrees of comfort with.

pj
chgo
 
Very nice guys, like you said sjm "Angle Conceptualization". I got a ton of information out of the replies guys and believe you all have steered me in the right direction to keep me busy for a very very long time. Thanks again.
 
Neil said:
It's hard to find anymore, but if you can get ahold of Kim Davenports game of Target Pool, it will give you all you ask and more!
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Yeah I did a search on google and found a post on another forum that said it was hard to come by and the date on the post was from 2004, so haha I'm gonna keep looking though.
 
recanizegame said:
....keep me busy for a very very long time.....
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Yes, the game will do that to you :thumbup: Don't forget to enjoy the beauty of your shots and it will keep you busy for a lifetime.

Dave

PS I think that my favorite hall has a Target Pool in an old glass case shoved into a corner .... I'll have to look again.
 
Neil:
It's hard to find anymore, but if you can get ahold of Kim Davenports game of Target Pool, it will give you all you ask and more!
Click to expand...

Yeah I did a search on google and found a post on another forum that said it was hard to come by and the date on the post was from 2004, so haha I'm gonna keep looking though.
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You can get pretty much the same thing by just putting a piece of paper on the table where you want the cue ball to stop after each shot. Use a whole sheet of typing paper at first and reduce its size as you improve. This has the advantage of being usable in any game you play, and teaches you to have specific shape targets during actual play.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The CB always caroms off the OB directly along the "tangent line", which is 90 degrees from the path the OB will take.
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You sure about that?
 
I'll try to explain a tangent line drill I was shown.


set up a OB about 6 inches from a corner pocket and about the same distance off the side rail. Now place the CB for a cut shot so that aftering making the OB ball the CB will go to the rail.

Know place another ball on the side rail where you think the CB will hit. Then shoot the shot and see if you hit the ball on the rail This will help in seeing how the CB comes off the OB with different spin.
 
alstl said:
You sure about that?
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Alstl, I don't know if you're referring to this. Because of throw, the less than perfect elasticity of the collision, mismatched ball masses, and if you really want to get into it, the finite compression time (longer than infinitesimal), the cueball's initial direction is not exactly along the ideal geometric tangent line or perpendicular to the OB's path. For nearly full hits, it can be very different than perpendicular, but then the cueball doesn't travel very far in these cases. Still, the initial 90-degree/tangent line rule is generally a good approximation, unless maybe you're playing English billiards or have very exacting position requirements.

As Patrick mentioned, any topspin or backspin will subsequently pull the cueball away from this "tangent line."

Jim
 
Jal said:
Alstl, I don't know if you're referring to this. Because of throw, the less than perfect elasticity of the collision, mismatched ball masses, and if you really want to get into it, the finite compression time (longer than infinitesimal), the cueball's initial direction is not exactly along the ideal geometric tangent line or perpendicular to the OB's path. For nearly full hits, it can be very different than perpendicular, but then the cueball doesn't travel very far in these cases. Still, the initial 90-degree/tangent line rule is generally a good approximation, unless maybe you're playing English billiards or have very exacting position requirements.

As Patrick mentioned, any topspin or backspin will subsequently pull the cueball away from this "tangent line."

Jim
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Head a splod

haha, nice information man. I just added about 4 words to my vocabulary.
 
Jal said:
Alstl, I don't know if you're referring to this. Because of throw, the less than perfect elasticity of the collision, mismatched ball masses, and if you really want to get into it, the finite compression time (longer than infinitesimal), the cueball's initial direction is not exactly along the ideal geometric tangent line or perpendicular to the OB's path. For nearly full hits, it can be very different than perpendicular, but then the cueball doesn't travel very far in these cases. Still, the initial 90-degree/tangent line rule is generally a good approximation, unless maybe you're playing English billiards or have very exacting position requirements.

As Patrick mentioned, any topspin or backspin will subsequently pull the cueball away from this "tangent line."

Jim
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If I roll this ball in with center ball at pocket speed am I going to come off at 90 degrees?

CueTable Help

 
alstl...Either you aren't listening, or your reading comprehension needs work. Both PJ and Jal said that the CB leaves at appx. 90 degrees to the collision angle IF THE CB SLIDES INTO THE OB (which is absolutely correct). That means it's not rolling. A soft shot, struck at center on the CB, will almost immediately go to a forward roll (within a few inches). Shoot harder and you'll learn that they're correct. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

alstl said:
If I roll this ball in with center ball at pocket speed am I going to come off at 90 degrees?

CueTable Help

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alstl said:
If I roll this ball in with center ball at pocket speed am I going to come off at 90 degrees?
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Not if you hit it dead straight on - then the CB will stop momentarily and then roll straight forward (because of the forward spin it had from rolling to the OB).

But if the CB hits the OB at even a slight angle, instead of stopping momentarily it will carom sideways momentarily along the tangent line before curving forward (again because of the forward spin it had from rolling to the OB).

This diagram of that motion is a little exaggerated for visibility.

CueTable Help



pj
chgo
 
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