Legal or illegal?
- Thread starter victorl
- Start date
From what the OP has described, the cue is still legal as long as it does not have a phenolic tip.Taking a standard length cue and lighten the back end is not illegal.
I can understand the non allowance of the short jump cues.It does not take much for learners to tear the cloth.
Not correct. Even once jump cues had become extremely popular, Efren still didn't use one. He was among the last of the top players to start using one, and I recall just how shocking it was when he first starting using the jump cue. I'm not relating what I've read, but what I've seen. I've followed the tournament trail seriously since the mid-1970's.
I agree that this is not a kicking vs jumping thread, but I reacted to a post in which somebody claimed that it was the poor safety players who tend to embrace the jump shot the least, and I was correct in offering Efren as a counterexample.
I don't think that jumping has ruined the game, but I think it has made it less elegant. For me personally, there is nothing more beatuiful than a well-executed kick, but I've never felt the same about the jump shot. Personal preference, that's all.
I can't jump a ball with control, so I am in the I can't jump camp.All that aside, pool is a 3d game.Those that can master that, have a greater repertoire of opportunities.
I enjoy seeing someone do a snooker and then the opponent doing a tremendous jump shot making the shot with a good leave.
I also enjoy seeing people doing great masse shots and all being done with regular looking cues that meet the rules requirement.
Neil
I enjoy seeing someone do a snooker and then the opponent doing a tremendous jump shot making the shot with a good leave.
I also enjoy seeing people doing great masse shots and all being done with regular looking cues that meet the rules requirement.
Neil
The BCA has adopted the WPA (World Standardized) rules and equipment specifications. The WPA does not have a limit on the number of cues brought to a match and does not have a minimum tip width.
Perhaps you are talking about the BCA Pool League (which is an entirely separate entity from the BCA). I looked at the BCAPL rules and was unable to find the 3-cues and 9mm-width limitations there, either. What is it you are looking at that states those limitations?
I do understand the use of Efren as a counter example but it was likely his superiority in kicking that made him dislike the jump cue... When Efren plays safe you are usually locked up to a ball so you aren't jumping anyway... When he kicks safe and leaves space he would naturally want a reward even if it's not a lock up safe just like a weak safety player...
Earl is neither a non-jumper nor a weak safety player but he didn't want people being able to do what he could do full cue with a shorty....
Both are examples outside of my statement... Of course they among others are why I threw in the word "usually"....
I have actually successfully converted 5 people who hated jump cues in the last couple of years... All it took was a couple of 10-15 minute lessons showing them the 3 jump styles and a measuring system... Each of them now carries a jumper and knows how to use it... 2 of the 5 of them were accomplished players having played for 20+ years... 1 is a local short stop who wins regional sized events... 1 is an APA5 and 1 hadn't been shooting a year.....
And before I forget... Someone mentioned that jump cues damage the table... No more so than breaking the balls...
Yes you get the friction burn divot but tearing cloth on a table comes from an improperly maintained tip or from the table not being in good shape and allowing the bed cloth to bunch... Don't blame jumps and masse shots too hastily.... You can see on some of the venom stuff that while his table is covered in friction burns you don't see a bunch of tears.....
Well said Mr. Barton. That's a flawed argument they use.
There's no reasoning with these anti-jump bigots and whiners. If they possessed any intelligence, they'd recognize that the jump shot and the jump cue actually enhances and progresses the kicking game, as well as advances the safety game.
They claim to love kicks so much and the beauty of the kicking game, they should be the first ones to promote jump cues. Since jump cues often deny the opponent the ability of playing a C or D level player safety where they just bump a ball or roll the cue ball and rely on just a simple obstacle ball. They force playing tighter safeties. And if the safety is tight enough, a jump shot often isn't an option. Thus, resulting in some of the most difficult and advanced kicks the game has seen.
The anti-jump whiners want to see their opponents kick. Great! Fantastic! MAKE THEM KICK BY PLAYING A GOOD SAFE. NOT A LAME ROLL SAFE.
What this is really about, is these anti-jump whiners wanting their opponents to have to kick the weakest and laziest (easiest) safes they play against them. They just want to roll and bump, with little thought or effort (or skill) and stick their opponents badly. All because a jump isn't allowed.
How is this advancing the kicking game? How does this respect the kicking game? How does this help the safety game?
Pool is stupid when anyone can just get behind an obstacle ball and expect a high percentage safety or outcome. Players should have to also work for a safety. Otherwise, it becomes nonsense not much better than bangers banging away on a table.
Remember the elements of a good safety - hiding the CB, hiding the object ball, distance, taking away the escape route (rails), taking away options on the CB (sticking it to rail, taking away draw etcetera)....and other elements.
Being able to jump is an essential and critical part of the game. It serves as a much needed DETERRENT to weak, lazy and sloppy play. It elevates pool, it doesn't make pool easier nor does it dumb it down, contrary to what the anti-jump whiners claim.
Going up against a strong player, who possesses strong jump skills (which would be a high percentage chance of making the ball, and a high percentage chance of getting shape on the next ball)...you will think twice about just walking up to the table, and bumping some lazy safe. You won't do that again after they burn you with a couple good jump shots. Instead, next time, be a real player, get up there and execute a quality skill shot - and make that safety the best safety you can play.
There's nothing more satisfying than a safety that is so good, there's no jump shot, and the kick is some ridiculously difficult low percentage trick shot. There's no pride in just cinching behind an easy obstacle.
The anti-jump whiners want the RULES to make their opponent kick, rather than using their own skills to make & force their opponent to kick.
I know you are a serious spectator. 1985 Reds was when Efren made his first appearance. Jump cues didn't really take off until 1998ish Efren also rarely won a big time 9-ball event during the 90s. His team mate Bustamante was no stranger to the Jump Cue though having used them throughout his time living in Germany and competing there in the National league and at all major events.
I have never seen Efren go on record as having disdain for the jump cue. I had heard that he carried one for a long time. He just rarely uses it. As much of a student of the game as Efren is I can't see him adopting any sort of purist stance on jump cues.
I need to go back and read the thread but I don't see how using Efren makes this point. Efren is an excellent safety player who understands that it's important to cut off the kicking lanes as well as the jumping distances whenever possible.
That's certainly a valid stance to have. I don't find anything elegant in a butchered shot of any kind and especially jump shots. However I find that jumping a ball precisely is a very high level skill that takes a lot of practice. Thus when I see a player show off that skill I am impressed, more so because I know the amount of practice it's taken me to get to the level I am at.
I HAD to quote it... It's too long for me to use as my sig.... :thumbup:
This shot among many more would beg to differ with your opinion.
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/new_strokeofgenius/apr08index.php
Oh boy, here we go again.
No it does not take more talent to kick.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/eric.perreault/diamond_system_en.html
http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Use-the-Diamond-System-in-Billiards-297289851
http://www.poolstudent.com/2010/01/22/system-sid-1-by-scott-rohleder/
http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Use-the-Diamond-System-for-a-Two-Rail-Kick-297290086
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html
Kicking is one skill in pool. Jumping is another skill.
When you kick a ball you MUST understand the angles and how the ball will react off the rails. Then you hit the ball in a straight line. Anyone can do it. In fact as long as the shooter can hit the ball in a straight line at the speed he wants to then ANYONE can coach him WHERE to aim at and the kick is likely to be made as long as the person indicating where to hit is correct.
For basic kick shots no particular touch is needed.
When you jump a ball you MUST not only understand how to hit the ball but you must physically be able to do it. You MUST have a certain amount of touch to know what force to use. Try getting on a shot where you have three inches of distance between the cueball and the blocking ball and the object ball only has a six inch window in front of it and it's frozen to the rail. So you have to not only clear the blocker, you have to land in a six inch window and put enough draw on the cue ball to kill it and keep it from bouncing off the table.
I don't care what you use to make that happen it's a GREAT shot.
Same thing if you had to kick three rails in between two balls to cut a ball in. That's not something you are going to learn to do in five minutes.
But you can learn to kick in five minutes. And if you have a decent stroke you can learn to jump in five minutes. Mastering either of those skills will take hundreds of hours dedicated to learning the nuances.
Two different skill sets. Neither is "harder" than the other one and even if one were then it wouldn't matter because both are needed to play pool under the current rules. If you want to see it change then get busy campaigning against the jump shot. Might as well ban the shot because people will never stop trying to engineer cues to make that shot more comfortable and controllable. Just like Predator and all the LD shaft makers have created shafts that they say makes the game easier to play jump cue makers have done the same and given EVERYONE the same tool so that those with the desire can master the skill to the highest degree possible.
I say this ten thousand times on here but if you have the best jumper in the world with a full cue I will give him a full cue off the rack, not doctored in any way that will make him look like a fool when he tries to jump a ball.
I don't care who you bring, Earl Strickland, Shawn Putnam, Rafael Martinez, bring who you want and stack up the cash and as long as I get to pick the cue they won't be able to jump a quarter.
Conversely if you get the best trick shot artist with a jump cue and give any one of those pros I just mentioned the SAME jump cue and set up a bunch of game situation shots then I bet it won't take but a few days and the top pros will be using the jump cue better than the trick shot guy because they have the touch and world class pool playing ability that the trick shot guy lacks.
In other words the TOOL is inert. It doesn't do anything by itself.
There is a thread on here about Mike Massey and power draw. Do you think Mike's cue is special? Go to one of his shows and try to draw the ball like he does using his cue..........10:1 on the money that you won't be able to do any three of his power stroke shots.
Same thing with a jump cue. It's just a tool and how well or how badly it's used depends 100% on the user. In every tournament you go to anywhere in the world the audience ALWAYS appreciates a well played jump shot. ALWAYS.
ALWAYS without exception.
Man this argument never goes away but I really do get tired of the kicking is harder than jumping crap. If you want to be a complete player then you will have to learn to do both.
I always figured room owners should give jumper-wannabes a Jump Test on a crap table and then issue a "license-to-jump" to those who passed the test. Everyone else would be prohibited from jumping until passing the test.
Jeff Livingston
I would add a license to masse' as well.
Actually if room owners were MORE engaged with how their customers played then there wouldn't be any need for this type of debate.
I knew one guy who had a pretty good business because he made it his business to know how his customers played and suggested things for them to do to get better. As a result his tables were rented more by people putting in earnest practice.
Well, as it happens I did know another room owner who made it his business to protect his customers by acting as the handicapper in the room. Everyone would ask him how they should play and everyone usually played with the game he set without argument. When strangers showed up he made it clear that they wouldn't be stealing from his customers but they were welcome to gamble if they wanted to.
In Buddy's book Rags to Rifleman there is a story about Bruce "Superstroke" Christopher getting locked up in Sapulpa OK's jail because he had no gamble. He tried to make a game with the mayor, the mayor agreed to the game and then Superstroke backed out wanting to bet far less than agreed on so the mayor locked him for having no gamble. At least I think that's how the story went.
Oh boy, here we go again.
..........I say this ten thousand times on here but if you have the best jumper in the world with a full cue I will give him a full cue off the rack, not doctored in any way that will make him look like a fool when he tries to jump a ball.............
QUOTE]
When the house says u can`t use jump cue and u have to use a Full length cue only, do u know how to beat/cheat the house rules ?
Answer: Go to the wall racks and pick a cue without any Tip at all. House cue without a tip can jump the cue ball as good as any of those fancy jump cues .
Roadies, Sorry to let the secret out.