Lessons (long)

great post!!!!

This is one of the finest posts I have ever seen on here. I hope that all of my competition sees it and believes it!

Thanks,
Hu




CaptiveBred said:
Is stroke correction the main thing instructors sell? if you have a look at the top players in the world, MANY of them have imperfect strokes.

I don't see the importance... I think a ball can be stroked an infinate number of ways to get the same results... its not brain surgery :)

If I were to take some lessons i would be after KNOWLEDGE! Not my stroke. Even if it could be better (which I'm sure it could) I still ould rather purchase knowledge with my limited funds.

I get tired of reading/hearing all the old stand byes when it comes to playing better. Like staying down, stroke, and we can't forget inlays lol.


I know fundamentals are important but creating robots is a waste of time. All one has to do is create a reproducable consistant stroke. No matter what it looks likes makes no difference if you are straight and can follow through... IMO, knowledge is the most powerfull tool in a pool players tool box.


Whenever I see instructors selling fundamentals I get turned off. I'm at the stage in my pool life where I am extremely thirsty for any advanced knowledge I may have missed. I think teachers would do well to recognize their are different customers in the billiard instruction industry. Most people I have come to know would not be too interested in lessons on fundamentals unless it was quick, cheap, and painless. Advanced knowledge shared by a top player always gathers a crowd. Its what real players want and nobody will share :)

I have only taken lessons once in my life. A three cushion player said he could tach me some rail systems. I jumped on it cause it was info I needed. If he said, let me fix your stroke, I'd say lets play some :) BTW, my stroke is far from perfect but its a product of intention. I developed it on purpose and I would not be willing to change cause it works for me and works very well...


Every major improve I have made in pool was due to knowledge. I think the first epiphany I had was the 90 degree rule. Knowing that made my game FAR MORE powerfull than a text book stroke. I have had several major jumps in my level of play over the years and all of them was due to absorbing a piece of knowledge that opened my eyes.

And for most good players, what could you expect to gain out of fixing a minor stroke problem? Really, what new shot would they now be able to execute? most good players can already execute all shots so changing the stroke would not help much IMO... Try to improve Allen Hopkins stroke to make him better :)

Anyways, stroke mechanics are basic. most pool players want to spend their cash on advanced. And most good players have a stroke that is plenty good enough, as is, to play at a very high level if only they knew all the secret info out there /shrug
Click to expand...
 
BRKNRUN,

Everyone has their own style because of their unique body. The SPF family of instructors teaches the requirements of good mechanics and assists the students in adjusting their physical mechanics as necessary for their unique needs.

I have found that most students will benefit from a group class over individual instruction. With individual instruction, the focus is narrowed to the student’s limited areas of concern. Some topics that would be useful to the student never come up because of that tight focus. In a group setting, a broad range of questions from different perspectives usually come up. Often, several students will say “Yea, I wondered about that too.”, but they more than likely wouldn’t have asked the question themselves.

A huge benefit from a class taught by a qualified instructor over books and videos is that they can quickly identify and correct issues that the student can’t see and correct themselves. Alignment issues are extremely difficult for a student to correct themselves. With an instructor, feedback is in real-time and multiple issues can be addressed and corrected. Another benefit is that there is very little detailed information on mechanics available in books or videos. Much of that is incorrect.
 
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CaptiveBred,

The reason for the focus on mechanics is that the vast majority of players have serious flaws that prevent them from having an accurate and consistent stroke. Without an accurate and consistent stroke, how can a player expect to get accurate and consistent action on the cue ball?

How hard, and how long will it someone with an inconsistent and inaccurate stroke to learn to accurately control the cue ball? Many of them will never learn. Others will appreciate an instructors help in shortening this learning curve dramatically. When they get a piece of knowledge from a top player, they can incorporate it into their game much easier because of they have an accurate and consistent stroke that they can depend on.
 
Mark Avlon said:
BRKNRUN,

Everyone has their own style because of their unique body. The SPF family of instructors teaches the requirements of good mechanics and assists the students in adjusting their physical mechanics as necessary for their unique needs.

I have found that most students will benefit from a group class over individual instruction. With individual instruction, the focus is narrowed to the student’s limited areas of concern. Some topics that would be useful to the student never come up because of that tight focus. In a group setting, a broad range of questions from different perspectives usually come up. Often, several students will say “Yea, I wondered about that too.”, but they more than likely wouldn’t have asked the question themselves.

A huge benefit from a class taught by a qualified instructor over books and videos is that they can quickly identify and correct issues that the student can’t see and correct themselves. Alignment issues are extremely difficult for a student to correct themselves. With and instructor feedback is in real-time and multiple issues can be addressed and corrected. Another benefit is that there is very little detailed information on mechanics available in books or videos. Much of what is there is incorrect.
Click to expand...


I am sorry, I can't agree with that.

I would agree that a group is better than books and videos by one self, but a "qualified" instructor one on one with a student is far better than group lessons.

From my experience teaching...(not pool but Golf) what I found was many students in clinics or group lessons were to shy/afraid to ask questions in front of the group and opted to ask the question "after" the clinic in a one on one enviroment.

Group (in my opinion) may be a good way to introduce new players/beginners into a learning atmosphere, and can be fun for all while learning a thing or two....

But IMO every student will opt for one on one attention. My guess is that most pool schools start in group form, but at different points are broken into smaller groups and or one on one sessions at some point......That is so the instructor can address the individual needs of each student.

I am no where near a top flight world beater in pool, but at my intermediate level, I would see no benefit of group instruction over one on one attention....

I have specific defects in my game I am sure that need to be addressed.....Actually a 5 second video session with Scott Lee at the BCA fixed a couple minor flaws.......Although it might be somewhat fun to go through a clinic....I would much rather spend the money for one on one and get right to the flaws of my game....instead of having to sit through a clinic and listen to a bunch of stuff I already know to get to the flaws in my game.

JMO
 
CaptiveBred, I believe that everyone would play better with a proper stroke.

Once that is accomplished I completely agree that your main goal should be to accumulate knowledge, because you can learn to execute knowledge but you cannot gain knowledge through execution.


Bern
 
CaptiveBred said:
Is stroke correction the main thing instructors sell? if you have a look at the top players in the world, MANY of them have imperfect strokes.

I don't see the importance... I think a ball can be stroked an infinate number of ways to get the same results... its not brain surgery :)

If I were to take some lessons i would be after KNOWLEDGE! Not my stroke. Even if it could be better (which I'm sure it could) I still ould rather purchase knowledge with my limited funds.

I get tired of reading/hearing all the old stand byes when it comes to playing better. Like staying down, stroke, and we can't forget inlays lol.


I know fundamentals are important but creating robots is a waste of time. All one has to do is create a reproducable consistant stroke. No matter what it looks likes makes no difference if you are straight and can follow through... IMO, knowledge is the most powerfull tool in a pool players tool box.


Whenever I see instructors selling fundamentals I get turned off. I'm at the stage in my pool life where I am extremely thirsty for any advanced knowledge I may have missed. I think teachers would do well to recognize their are different customers in the billiard instruction industry. Most people I have come to know would not be too interested in lessons on fundamentals unless it was quick, cheap, and painless. Advanced knowledge shared by a top player always gathers a crowd. Its what real players want and nobody will share :)

I have only taken lessons once in my life. A three cushion player said he could tach me some rail systems. I jumped on it cause it was info I needed. If he said, let me fix your stroke, I'd say lets play some :) BTW, my stroke is far from perfect but its a product of intention. I developed it on purpose and I would not be willing to change cause it works for me and works very well...


Every major improve I have made in pool was due to knowledge. I think the first epiphany I had was the 90 degree rule. Knowing that made my game FAR MORE powerfull than a text book stroke. I have had several major jumps in my level of play over the years and all of them was due to absorbing a piece of knowledge that opened my eyes.

And for most good players, what could you expect to gain out of fixing a minor stroke problem? Really, what new shot would they now be able to execute? most good players can already execute all shots so changing the stroke would not help much IMO... Try to improve Allen Hopkins stroke to make him better :)

Anyways, stroke mechanics are basic. most pool players want to spend their cash on advanced. And most good players have a stroke that is plenty good enough, as is, to play at a very high level if only they knew all the secret info out there /shrug
Click to expand...


This illustrates my point perfectly.

I’m not sure if its ignorance or arrogance that tells me my stroke is ok, but what ever the case that’s not the kind of teaching I’m looking for. I want an education w/o having to go back through the basics.

Thanks to all that responded to the original post. I’m going to let all this sink in and figure out which instructor I think is best for me. Although I’m thinking it won’t be Cue-U. :D

Joe
 
Wow, there are a lot of interesting points of view on this thread. I can't help but throw in my two cents.
Some students do very well in a group setting. Others prefer one-on-one instruction. That's one reason I offer both.
People learn in different ways. A good instructor has to be able to recognize that each student is different, and find the best way to help the student gain a solid understanding of the concepts being explained.
Even in a one-on-one setting, I may have the student read a section of the workbook, then we discuss it, I may demonstrate it, and then have the student demonstrate it to me. They are much more likely to RETAIN it when we appeal to as many senses as possible.
Much of the learning process does depend on the student. Nobody can teach you to be a better player. Many of us can teach you to LEARN to be a better player. If you have an open mind to new ideas, and the willingness to try different things, you will be a good student, and you will benefit from lessons. If you already know 90% of everything, you don't need us. You have to empty your coffee cup before it can be filled with fresh coffee.
Different instructors will charge different rates. You have to determine where the value is. Yes, $600 is a lot of money. You could get a brand new Schon cue that probably won't help you improve anywhere near as much as some good quality instruction.
As for the question regarding references, I keep a list of students who have agreed to allow me to share contact information with potential students. I have some comments posted on my web-site, and will be happy to provide references upon request. I think most good instructors would be willing to do the same.
Bottom line is, unfortunately, that you will get out of lessons what you want to get out of them. If you don't think lessons are going to help you, the do not get them. If you think you could be better, but aren't sure how to go about getting there, get an instructor.
There are plenty of good one right here on this forum.
Steve
 
Lessons needed?

Check out www.pooiq.net and even call Joe yourself. He charges no where near that much, and will offer 1 on 1 instruction in areas that you seek improvement not a set itenerary. He'll point out basics that may need altering if it interferes with improvement, but he won't put you into the mold and make you just another "standard" pool player. I've taken lessons from him after purchasing his DVD's and everyone I know and play against have seen dramatic improvement. He didn't try to change what was working for me, just gave me instruction on what I didn't do confidently.

Check out the posts here to get some perspective on what he can offer. Search for Joe Villalpondo or Cue Ball Control DVD, or just look at the threads I've posted on. Several of them pertain to Joe's work. He has had people come for lessons from all over the country and I've never heard a case of someone being anything but thrilled with the results he can lead you to. In fact, most come back for more lessons later on to help develop their games further.

I know several people who have been to Cue U and said it was "alright". They weren't too impressed with the overall experience, but did say they learned to practice with a purpose. There are tons of teachers that can give you that. Most for far less than $1800. If you are interested, give Joe a call and let me know...I can hook you up with accomodations in the area.

Dave
 
Considering group lessons but I like Joe's style

I'm considering group lessons and actually taking lessons in a very small group right now from a local amateur. However, I have both of lil' Joe's DVD's and definitely have the impression that we would work well together in the one on one student/teacher environment. Unfortunately he is a long ways away from my home and group lessons are coming to my back yard making them much more appealing. This isn't to condemn the group lessons in any way but they are a bit of a pig in a poke as reading other people's opinions isn't nearly the same as watching someone teach.

Another instructor that I have hours of video of, I would be hesitant to go to. He has helped some of the very best with their game, no question that he is capable. I just don't think his teaching style would suit me as well as some other instructor's styles. Joe's low key approach that he seems to take suits me.

Hu



iasaxman said:
Check out www.pooiq.net and even call Joe yourself. He charges no where near that much, and will offer 1 on 1 instruction in areas that you seek improvement not a set itenerary. He'll point out basics that may need altering if it interferes with improvement, but he won't put you into the mold and make you just another "standard" pool player. I've taken lessons from him after purchasing his DVD's and everyone I know and play against have seen dramatic improvement. He didn't try to change what was working for me, just gave me instruction on what I didn't do confidently.

Check out the posts here to get some perspective on what he can offer. Search for Joe Villalpondo or Cue Ball Control DVD, or just look at the threads I've posted on. Several of them pertain to Joe's work. He has had people come for lessons from all over the country and I've never heard a case of someone being anything but thrilled with the results he can lead you to. In fact, most come back for more lessons later on to help develop their games further.

Dave
Click to expand...
 
NYjoe, how do you get a better guarantee than what Scott offered you at the beginning of this thread? He comes to you and if you don't feel that he improves your game you don't pay! Hell, if you just come away with some of his confidence you are are ahead of the game. Don't be afraid that he might find something wrong that you thought you had locked in. He is very astute, a good comunicator and a great guy. You will benefit regardless of your playing level.

I didn't realize their were so many people that considered themselves qualified instructors on this board. We are indeed lucky.
 
tpdtom said:
Several hours ago I finished three days of one on one instruction with Stan Shuffett, father of Landon Shuffett, the 12 year old who plays with the men on the pro tour. Stan is a newly retired teacher and college billiard instructor, a great communicator, and a BCA Advanced Instructor. I can't say enough good about the entire experience, but let it suffice to say that after playing for decades at a fairly high level I could never have diagnosed the flaw in my stroke that Stan identified and videoed in the first few hours together. Then, over the next two day we found ways to correct it and drills for improvement with self monitors and feedback.

I should mention that compared to other great and well known instructors that I contacted, Stan charged "working man" prices and gave me total individual attention for three days. He loves teaching and it's easy to see that your success is very important to him. The BCA Foundation Course is appropriate for players at any level.

Last but not least, if you travel to Kentucky to take lessons from Stan, you'll stay in a great area which is friendly and laid back. Not much night life, but as I said, it's super friendly and I enjoyed every minute. My highest recommendation and I have no connection to Stan except as a very satisfied student. Link below...Tom

www.justcueit.com
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Tom...Congratulations on 'biting the bullet' and seeking out some quality instruction. Stan is a great instructor, and personal friend of mine. Now you'll just have to practice what you learned. As far as rates go, every instructor has to charge what they feel is a fair and competitive rate. I'm happy for you that you found an instructor with "working man" rates. Just curious though...how much do you pay your doctor, lawyer, plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic? Do you believe they charge working man rates? At least now you can better justify that new X-Breaker (even though it won't make you a better player, like lessons will)! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
While it's true that some top players have funny strokes, I don't think you should ignore that lots of people are saying "do the fundamentals class" just because your own opinion leans towards the few who say "skip it".

Someone pointed out that the stroke concept isn't rocket science, but neither is the knowledge side of things, at least for games like 9 ball. The next time you don't run a runnable rack, ask yourself if it was truly because your knowledge came up short (like you didn't know what side of the ball to get on or what the cue ball was gonna do so you got a bad leave), or if you just screwed up the shot, or the position getting to it.

I can't speak for others but to me it feels like most of my dogged runouts are just missing shots I feel like I should be making 95% and I'm only hitting 'em 60% or something, or my cueball got away from me because I didn't get enough action or too much action on it. Inconsistency, in a word.
 
ya know i thought about this more, the group thing might be cool for a while if it was the right group, in my case a group of C players talking about things woudnt work, but a group of players at my level might be interesting as things i havent thought of ight come up.

i have had lessions 1 on 1 for other things and its helped me, and a good instructor dosent have to be a world beater playing pool, the 2 i had were.
 
players and stroke

Here are some thoughts on basics, ALLEN HOPKINS has a punch stroke,EFERN REYES has a loop stroke BUSTAMONTY same as EFERN but these players need to get better basic, think about it all the great players that have lousey strokes but never miss a ball.
 
ghostball said:
Here are some thoughts on basics, ALLEN HOPKINS has a punch stroke,EFERN REYES has a loop stroke BUSTAMONTY same as EFERN but these players need to get better basic, think about it all the great players that have lousey strokes but never miss a ball.
Click to expand...

I guess if you are as good as Hopkins, Reyes, and Busta, then perhaps you don't need to focus on fundamentals. For the rest of us.....

Steve
 
My coach gave me all the fundamentals but when I was out there in the "Real World" my game was another story.

It wasn't about how good my fundamentals were I needed something extra the something extra that my coach did not give me.
 
yeah heh that point was brought up... I didn't that efren's stroke is considered non-textbook, to me it looks very solid and standard and straight. Busty on the other hand I can definitely spot side-to-side action when he delivers it, plus a little body english on shots with a lot of sidespin. Hopkins' stroke also gives me fits just to watch it but it's a fine stroke for straight pool if you never need to draw the cueball 4 feet or whatever. Or maybe he's done well in 9 ball also, I dunno? Even earl's fantastic stroke is considered outside of the textbook, he gets so low his chin is below and to the side of the stick.

What I see in common off the top of my head is getting down really low over the cue and a loose back hand that sorta tosses the cue forward more than muscling it forward. Busty's is especially 'wristy' and loose.
 
ghostball said:
Here are some thoughts on basics, ALLEN HOPKINS has a punch stroke,EFERN REYES has a loop stroke BUSTAMONTY same as EFERN but these players need to get better basic, think about it all the great players that have lousey strokes but never miss a ball.
Click to expand...


Not trying to start a big argument here, but if some of the top players of out time have bad “fundamentals” how is it that they play at this exceptionally high level?

If form is the foundation around which are respective games are made how is this possible?

Which is to say some may put to much emphasis on this.....................?
 
Scott Lee said:
Tom...Congratulations on 'biting the bullet' and seeking out some quality instruction. Stan is a great instructor, and personal friend of mine. Now you'll just have to practice what you learned. As far as rates go, every instructor has to charge what they feel is a fair and competitive rate. I'm happy for you that you found an instructor with "working man" rates. Just curious though...how much do you pay your doctor, lawyer, plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic? Do you believe they charge working man rates? At least now you can better justify that new X-Breaker (even though it won't make you a better player, like lessons will)! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...
Well Scott, frankly, whenever I decide to do something, I have to consider whether or not I can afford it. I wish that I were in a position where I didn't have to consider costs but I'm not. I consider the fees of all the people I hire, professionals or not. Usually I whine like a stuck pig, but not this time. I think I received ooodles of value for my bucks spent.

I have bought lots of new cues since returning to the game. Most will be sold and the ones I like the best will be kept. I've had lessons from more than one instructor as well. The time with Stan was particularly well spent. The entire trip was expensive, even at working man's prices, but well worth it.

For the benefit of others trying to evaluate stroke analysis, I have this to say. Like Allison Fisher, when I'm in a slump or looking for improvement I look to my fundamentals first. My stroke has a glitch that allowed me to play at a fairly high level but not without a tremendous amount of practice, and then without any noticable improvement. I'm hoping that improving/correcting my basics will allow that elusive gain in performance that escaped me. Stan gave me many tools for improvement in addition to the solution to the problem with my stroke, but that may have been the most critical. If a player can remain openminded, a well qualified coach can make a big difference...Tom
 
ghostball said:
Here are some thoughts on basics, ALLEN HOPKINS has a punch stroke,EFERN REYES has a loop stroke BUSTAMONTY same as EFERN but these players need to get better basic, think about it all the great players that have lousey strokes but never miss a ball.
Click to expand...

The point these people are trying to make is, if you have 5 years of practicing 40-60 hours a week, then yeah.. You can make any mangled stroke work. For those of us who are older, or have limited practice time, then you need to find a way to build a good stroke in a short amount of time. The best way to do this without having to practice 8 hours a day is to start with a textbook stroke.

Russ
 
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