Let's Talk About the "Southwest" Roll

[Thomas Wayne]

[...]

I am not saying this should be the case with your financial stuff or matters of family welfare by any means. I very important [...]

There! Right there... that's the problem in a nutshell. You think you're very important, and therefore believe that any hair-brained "out-of-the-box" idea you have is pure gold. Many experts in a number of different fields have told you that your methods are not good ones, and have gone onto explain why, but you can't be bothered with such triviality. Because your one governing mantra is "[Rick] very important".

Most "thinking outside the box" turns out to be crap. Occasionally ideas generated while bucking convention can pay off, but it's fair to say the VAST majority are easily rejected upon even rudimentary analysis

In the instant case you apparently have been unable to achieve the successful results other cuemakers obtain using traditional machining processes, so instead you machine sloppy, imprecise fits and make up the difference with epoxy filler.

Doesn't matter if that epoxy is "6,500 psi" (a quantification you don't even understand). Doesn't matter if you try to obfuscate your "explanation" by combing the longest synonyms you can find - i.e., " structural encapsulation within the annulus with the threads acting a keyway anchorage embedment zones" - where simple phrasing would not only be easier but actually preferred. It doesn't matter because the entire concept of floating a joint pin in a sloppy oversize hole filled with epoxy is nothing more than an unskilled work-around to compensate for lack of machining skill.

Your resume, which you constantly and unnecessarily inject into any discussion, is very impressive. It's almost certainly a high percentage of pure bullshit, but still impressive. However, no matter what tiny amount of it is true, NONE of the experience you claim - quality inspection expert (above and below sea level), expert pilot, renowned jazz musician, multi-millionaire... - none of those skill sets have anything to do with cuemaking. It's exactly like saying you were really good with horses so you'd make a great mountain climber.

But that's okay because, as you said, "[Rick] very important".

TW

 

[scdiveteam]

Rick, if Jesus came down from heaven and told you, you're full of sh!t, you'd come back with a 6-page argument.
You're not interested in listening or you strive for higher standards as proven here already. I can go on and on about your claims and your processes. That would just open up more arguments.
You got cue makers with resumes you will never touch telling you things you should be thankful for receiving . Instead of taking them and really examining them, you blurt out your resume and keep insisting your ways are some incredible sh!t.

Rick, it's not the world. IT's YOU.
If TW, RBC, Steve Klein, Crisp and DZ COLLECTIVELY told me something , I'd just shut up and take it . B/c if they did that COLLECTIVELY, they can't be wrong.

Joey,

Jesus would never do that because he knows better! LOL

So I am guessing the cynical personality is your life long mantra.

That's cool but I think Bob has stated he bores his barrel hole .002 oversize and fills that area with epoxy. There is an old saying that states, ".002 is a mile".

Maybe he don't want to force a .382 barrel into a .382 hole too is what I am guessing. Sue me for going and extra .001 oversize per side on my Enco Lathe. When I get my Hardinge tweaked and it is up and running I will try Bob's tolerance with my method. His slight words of insight was worth this whole dragged out thread on the subject to as far as I am concerned. So instead of a .3375 reamer I will go .335 and test the results.

You need to read before you make blanket statements that are filled with prejudice. Objectivists like me notice that kind of behavior. Especially when it is done on a consistent basis. I would not generally point it out but since you seem to think I am a BSer I will pay you back in kind.

So keep doing your size on size and keep forcing things. Even a hack like me knew better than to do that. If you throw enough crap against the wall, some has got to stick now and then. LOL Don't you agree.

Also if you need the other guys to verify your methods or agree with you, you are not pushing your personal limits, learning process or expectations. That's what drones do. Life is not always about conformity and you got to mold your self the way your will requires. If you try and fail it is a success because you learned from the experience.


Rick

 

[Joe Barringer]

And to think this all started when the OP asked a simple question, "Is the cue straight"? Seems like a pretty simple question that only required a yes or no answer or perhaps a yes with a side note.

I don't know how this got into becoming a let's beat up on Rick thread but perhaps he metrologically and meteorologically didn't know the meteorological issues because they were an obscure obfuscation.

With all the multiple replies here which obviously need to be kept up with, where do some of you find the time to build cues? If I had to read this thread and keep up with it, I'd burn a full day. Must be nice to have that much free time.

OK, I'm outta here. Enjoy the party. Have a nice weekend to everyone out there.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey,

Jesus would never do that because he knows better! LOL

So I am guessing the cynical personality is your life long mantra.

That's cool but I think Bob has stated he bores his barrel hole .002 oversize and fills that area with epoxy. There is an old saying that states, ".002 is a mile".

Maybe he don't want to force a .382 barrel into a .382 hole too is what I am guessing. Sue me for going and extra .001 oversize per side on my Enco Lathe. When I get my Hardinge tweaked and it is up and running I will try Bob's tolerance with my method. His slight words of insight was worth this whole dragged out thread on the subject to as far as I am concerned. So instead of a .3375 reamer I will go .335 and test the results.

You need to read before you make blanket statements that are filled with prejudice. Objectivists like me notice that kind of behavior. Especially when it is done on a consistent basis. I would not generally point it out but since you seem to think I am a BSer I will pay you back in kind.

So keep doing your size on size thing forcing things.

Also if you need the other guys to verify your methods, you are not pushing your personal limits, learning process or expectations. That's what drones do. Life is not always about conformity and you got to mold your self the way your will requires. If you try and fail it is a success because you learned from the experience.


Rick

More yada yada and you're forgetting your own numbers.
.372" to .3775".
More talking from the side of the mouth. From peer check to not needing other guys to verify your methods.
You can multi-millionaire and 6500 PSI that with nuclear data sheet .

Hearing a sermon about life wisdom from you is like listening to a fat trainer.

 

[Travis Niklich]

This threads like a scene from the movie "The Color of Money"
"It's like a nightmare, it just keeps getting worse"

One things for certain in any debate or argument you're entitled to your own opinion on a subject, but not you're own set of facts.

 

[leon sly]

Rick~~

the log book must be filling up fast with green stamps you must have at least a two year wait by now!!!! paint the mother pink. lol

 

[scdiveteam]

There! Right there... that's the problem in a nutshell. You think you're very important, and therefore believe that any hair-brained "out-of-the-box" idea you have is pure gold. Many experts in a number of different fields have told you that your methods are not good ones, and have gone onto explain why, but you can't be bothered with such triviality. Because your one governing mantra is "[Rick] very important".

Most "thinking outside the box" turns out to be crap. Occasionally ideas generated while bucking convention can pay off, but it's fair to say the VAST majority are easily rejected upon even rudimentary analysis

In the instant case you apparently have been unable to achieve the successful results other cuemakers obtain using traditional machining processes, so instead you machine sloppy, imprecise fits and make up the difference with epoxy filler.

Doesn't matter if that epoxy is "6,500 psi" (a quantification you don't even understand). Doesn't matter if you try to obfuscate your "explanation" by combing the longest synonyms you can find - i.e., " structural encapsulation within the annulus with the threads acting a keyway anchorage embedment zones" - where simple phrasing would not only be easier but actually preferred. It doesn't matter because the entire concept of floating a joint pin in a sloppy oversize hole filled with epoxy is nothing more than an unskilled work-around to compensate for lack of machining skill.

Your resume, which you constantly and unnecessarily inject into any discussion, is very impressive. It's almost certainly a high percentage of pure bullshit, but still impressive. However, no matter what tiny amount of it is true, NONE of the experience you claim - quality inspection expert (above and below sea level), expert pilot, renowned jazz musician, multi-millionaire... - none of those skill sets have anything to do with cuemaking. It's exactly like saying you were really good with horses so you'd make a great mountain climber.

But that's okay because, as you said, "[Rick] very important".

TW

Expert inspector before 20 years old. I think not, only qualified.

Expert pilot. Are you kidding me.

Renowned jazz musician, I wish.

Expert in the Marine Profession as a commercial diver with many quals and certs.

You damned skippy. Over 9900 commercial dives logged over 30 years as a pro.

So please don't put words in my mouth.

Sloppy oversized hole, .002 per side in the annulus. The epoxy has to have a place to exists. A body fit makes no sense to me as a mechanic.

Everything has everything to do regarding practical experience moving forward regarding judgment in mechanical disciplines. That's how it works.

I don't think i am important, I am not as important today as I once was as I have been retired from my profession now for ten years.

So stop projecting how you think my mindset works as you don't know.

Buddha explained that he was trying to agree with you and was just asking a question when you went off on him. Try to be cool man, you will live longer.

Boy do I know how he feels from my personal experience after you posted a pic of my cue as a example on how not to design one. I agreed with your comment and you still go off on me. Like Yogi said, "déjà vu all over again".

Rick

 

[Dognit]

Good lord.

Not a cue maker, yet...(but I am aspiring, thanks to all who contribute information)

and I hate to light this thread off again, but...

Back to the original post, and specifically in regards to Southwest cues, and the appearance of warpage when rolling.

Southwest (And Others) have been known to do a little "point sanding" to get point length to equalize. This can cause the appearance of forearm warpage, even though cue will roll true assembled and apart individually. The flatter the surface, the more obvious it becomes. Pool tables are not really suitable for this, (with felt, OVER seams), little lone that felt edged work cart. Might as well use carpet. A machinist table would be optimal, but I suppose a bare slate would be close enough for our needs.

I just want to drive that home, and perhaps might have been the original issue prior to this thread spinout.

I had hoped somebody would mention this about 10 pages ago for possible reasons and verification of what exactly OP was describing.

Sorry if Ive overlooked something.

 

[Dave38]

Good lord.

Not a cue maker, yet...(but I am aspiring, thanks to all who contribute information)

and I hate to light this thread off again, but...

Back to the original post, and specifically in regards to Southwest cues, and the appearance of warpage when rolling.

Southwest (And Others) have been known to do a little "point sanding" to get point length to equalize. This can cause the appearance of forearm warpage, even though cue will roll true assembled and apart individually. The flatter the surface, the more obvious it becomes. Pool tables are not really suitable for this, (with felt, OVER seams), little lone that felt edged work cart. Might as well use carpet. A machinist table would be optimal, but I suppose a bare slate would be close enough for our needs.

I just want to drive that home, and perhaps might have been the original issue prior to this thread spinout.

I had hoped somebody would mention this about 10 pages ago for possible reasons and verification of what exactly OP was describing.

Sorry if Ive overlooked something.

When this practice is used, if done correctly, they will use either sealer or finish( or both) to level it out, or build it up, as that point is only usually a few thousands flat after doing it. It's usually done when a point or two are off a very small amount from the rest of the points. If done right, it will spin true and the points will line up. A company such as SW, I doubt that they would be that sloppy.
Dave

 

[Dognit]

You would think..

However having owned over 20 SW cues and currently 4, this happens, albeit more so on earlier cues. Just throwing this out there and sharing some knowledge.

When I read the first post and title, this is what I thought the thread was going to be about.

 

[Joe Barringer]

When I read the first post and title, this is what I thought the thread was going to be about.

Hmmm, only 90 posts, you have a lot to learn here.

Just because a post starts out with "Southwest Roll" doesn't necessarily mean it will be about the "Southwest Roll". It could start out with the "Southwest Roll" and then jump to rolls with ham and eggs and then some rocket scientist will tell us that ham and eggs don't belong on rolls and should always be on a muffin. The thread will continue with someone stating that they prefer the egg-mcmuffin and wish they came on a roll. Then the discussion will debate whether or not ham and eggs should be on rolls or muffins.

Somewhere the thread will get back on track or so you though until the conversation takes a twist and the talk is about the "Southwest Roll" and whether or not you like TexMex style ham and eggs on a southwest roll or prefer it on a NY style sliced Sicilian bread.

Some will say they love burgers on whole wheat rolls while playing with their Southwest. However, no where will a question on AZ receive a simple direct answer without going off on multiple tangents and there will always be a 'put-down' by some know-it-all who knows-it-all, see's-it-all and heard-it-all. It could come from as close as New York, as far away as Alaska or from the left coast in California. Rest assured, there will be multiple reasons why there is a "Southwest Roll" as well as multiple reasons to eat your ham and eggs on rolls or muffins.

Other than that, welcome to the side show. :grin:

 

[cueaddicts]

These threads are 'like a box of chocolates'.....:thumbup:

 

[Murray Tucker]

This is the reason I quit using a compound taper. No matter how perfect you try to be any minor error shows up at the joint. I put together a few pictures to show why.

Here is a quick CAD drawing of the SW taper.



Zooming in on the joint area shows you that with it laying flat on the table the joint will be .0419 off the table.



So now I have to turn the cue to size and sand it smooth. Then multiple coats of sealer are applied with sanding between coats. Then the finish goes on. Once again this can be multiple coats with sanding in between. Then I have to put the cue back in the lathe and square off the ends of the wrap groove. And finally I have to put my sanding mandrels on the joint and feather it in if needed. Now the forearm is 12" long so that leaves 17" of the butt on the table. Throughout this whole process of finishing, sanding, wrapping etc. if there is any error it is going to show up magnified at the joint.

Oh, and wood can move a little no matter what steps are taken to prevent it. On a normal cue it might not show up but in a compound taper it will show up big time. So if you roll a compound taper cue on a table chances are good you will see variance under the joint.

Is it warped: Maybe, maybe not.
Will it make you miss balls: No

 

[JoeyInCali]

This is the reason I quit using a compound taper. No matter how perfect you try to be any minor error shows up at the joint. I put together a few pictures to show why.

Straight angle now ? Ugh!:grin:
I've cut a few angles where the joint doesn't have to be off the cloth when rolling .
.018" per inch is really stretching it.

.400 taper top to bottom ? Ugh!:grin:
Still not going there.
Whippydida taper.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Interesting thread, with all the comments taking place, there is something missing: a statement on the issue from Southwest cues, that could put things in place.
The highest authority on this issue couldn't be anyone else, nobody could explain this better.
I don't have the caliber to judge such technical issues, just in my humble experience I would never think that people in a long successful company don't know what are they doing, the market would "punish" any flawed work eventually despite any kind of marketing.
I've owned several custom cues, never owned a Southwest cue, but I see they keep their value, and they are not considered too "artistic" in terms of design, compared to other designs that have evolved through the years in the industry.
I guess tradition combined with a certain kind of hit provided is what it's all about.
I for one would be interested in reading what they have to say about it.
Petros

 

[whammo57]

Interesting thread, with all the comments taking place, there is something missing: a statement on the issue from Southwest cues, that could put things in place.
The highest authority on this issue couldn't be anyone else, nobody could explain this better.
I don't have the caliber to judge such technical issues, just in my humble experience I would never think that people in a long successful company don't know what are they doing, the market would "punish" any flawed work eventually despite any kind of marketing.
I've owned several custom cues, never owned a Southwest cue, but I see they keep their value, and they are not considered too "artistic" in terms of design, compared to other designs that have evolved through the years in the industry.
I guess tradition combined with a certain kind of hit provided is what it's all about.
I for one would be interested in reading what they have to say about it.
Petros

Very good point........ I would like to hear it too.... but

any cue maker that has a, 11 year wait....... does not have to ever make a statement......... the desire to buy one makes the only statement necessary....

KIm